Please help, 10+ NW before and after DF

[arabesque]

Hi everyone,

I'm so disheartened to write this post, but I come in search of help

DS2 started STTN about 14 weeks. He had a few days where he slept though from 7pm-7am, with a little assistance from the dummy at about 5:30am. DS2 is now 19 weeks / just over 4.5mo. He's a big boy, craved food, and in my opinion is on solids earlier than I'd like. As you can probably tell, I'm beating myself up over that decision too.

However, things have gone worse, much worse. The past several nights he's been waking about 4 times before the DF. Then after the DF, he's been waking what I would estimate as 10 times. I can't keep count because I'm too tired. Basically we've been giving the dummy. I know this has become a huge prop. When he needed it in those early morning hours DH and I would give it, but it's now at the point of ridiculous when he's waking every 20mins to 30 mins when it falls out. If you look back through a few of my older posts you'll see I was hugely reluctant to use the dummy at all, and for this exact reason. I think a few weeks ago when he needed the dummy a few times we thought we could keep putting it in until he's a bit older and can deal with replacing it himself. However I'm at breaking point!

Anyway...we've ruled out hunger. He has no desire to feed if I pick him up, doesn't root for the breast, doesn't make sucking noises, none of the signs you'd expect. He can happily wait until 7am and even then doesn't "drain" me.

He's wrapped with both arms in. We have tried unsuccessfully about 2 weeks ago to wean the wrap, as I think this would help him (a) learn to settle and (b) get used to having his arms out so he can be able to replace the dummy if we keep it.

He goes to sleep without the dummy each time he naps and for night sleeps. He gets wrapped, has cuddles and kisses, and goes in. There's between 0 and 5 mins of mantra crying, then he';s asleep. Only for 45mins during the day though, and it used to be a settled block between 7pm and DF, but no more.The dummy was introduced to extend naps originally as I couldn't get either shh pat or PUPD to work. The dummy did work, and continues to *usually* extend his naps.

Our best nights have followed days when he slept very poorly and ended up with a small amount day sleep.

Our EASY looks like this:

E 7am (breastfed)
S 9:10-11am

E 11am (breast)
E 12 solids
S 1:10-3pm

E 3pm (breast)
S 4:50-5:15pm
E 5:30pm (solids)
E 6:40pm (breast)

DF 10:15pm (breast, sometimes additional 100ml formula taken, sometimes he rejects formula altogether)

Basically I have no idea what to do. DS1 didn't have the dummy and was a great night sleeper. DS2 is getting visibly worse each night. I guess it's come to the point where DH and I have to consider a few options:

* unswaddle
* tweak day routine (not sure how to do this without going more than 4hrs b/w feed though)
* attempt PUPD with a very awake, very alert baby at least 10 times a night
* keep replugging the dummy as it's only a few months before he can do it himself
* cry louder than he does and let him CIO

Any advice welcome.
Thanks
Bec

[benners318]

Hey Bec,

I noticed how you said he would have better nights on the crap naps days.  Can you attempt to drop the catnap.  I know it may seem crazy as he's going to be super crabby for a time period around supper (we go through that occasionally after dropping the catnap) but the good thing is that supper time is right around the corner to keep him busy and awake.  It seems like he's getting a lot of sleep during the day and may be getting some days and nights mixed up.  If he's been getting worse with night sleep then that would be my first step.  It will probably be tough and you may have to start by doing every other day of cat nap and no cat nap.  But you just have to push through and eventually he'll make it everyday.

My other thought would be maybe he's teething?  Did he get any teeth?  Could he be getting sick?

[ElsMom]

Bec, it sounds to me like it's a prop / paci problem, which is a bit strange since he goes down without it, but then obviously needs it when he stirs in his sleep. The good thing is that he doesn't need or even want to eat when he wakes, so you probably need to decide the best way to wean the paci dependence. I don't blame you for not wanting to wait the couple of months it's probably going to take before he can replug without help - you can't make it like this that long! When did you last try PUPD? He's just now 4.5 months, so according to Tracy is just now at the age where it would start working. Does he calm when you pick him up, or does he just want you to resettle him with the paci in his crib? Another thought would be a variation of the Pantley "gentle removal" technique, but with the pacifier. I'm sure someone out there has tried it - you could give him the paci until he settles, then try to remove it before he's fully back asleep, if he fusses, give it back but remove it again before he falls asleep (repeat as many times as necessary and theoretically he'd stop waking for it). She recommends this to wean a breastfeeding-to-sleep dependence, but it seems like it would work in this situation, too. Hugs!

[arabesque]

Thanks ladies, much appreciated. Am planning to try dropping the catnap today and see how we go.

Have either of you used PUPD with very awake babies? Last time I tried it with him I was at it for over 20mins (and then I gave up, he didn't go back to sleep)...this was during the day, and it's just unfathomable to think about doing that a gazillion times a night.

Lisa, I think it's definitely a paci problem. I can't understand how he can go to sleep without it and then need it to go back to sleep. My doing, I guess, but I only introduced it as otherwise he wouldn't go back to sleep at all. I'll read up on Pantley's gentle removal plan, thanks.

Would either of you like to suggest a routine minus catnap from 7am-7pm? Am so foggy in the head I can't think straight today

Thanks again xx

[weeza]

Hello ladies. Not been around these parts for a long time! I popped on yesterday actually and couldn't find my way around at all!

Anyway Becster, I remember we went through exactly what you are describing with Oscar but when he was a little younger. My thoughts:

1) we had the same thing exactly (although around maybe 6 months I think, not sure now) and we just stuck it out, plugging away, and it didn't last as long as you'd think (maybe just a couple of weeks of really bad nights - it went really awful, rock bottom, and then just went away again. So if you do continue to plug it may not be as awful (or last as long) as you think.

2) if you went cold turkey and took it away as we have done over the last week you'd probably find that's a great solution too - much easier than you'd think and can't be worse than the current NWs right?! (Plus, you save yourself the trouble of having to wean somewhere along the line, the older they are, the harder it is...)

3) swaddling's another BW miracle that you're going to have to give up sometime soon too, so what the heck, now might be as good a time as any. maybe he's telling you he needs to be free! we went cold turkey with that too bse it was so hot in Murcia in the summer. yes it involves crying, but i called it an angry mantra (you know he's not hungry or in trouble) and let him work it out unless it sounded like he was in trouble. he did fine.

4) echoing Jenny, dropping the catnap  seems like a good idea too.

5) plus, 10m is a time of LOTS of change, getting mobile etc. he'll settle again soon. take heart dearest.

Big hugs to you xxxxxx

What's his routine at the mo? How much A time? I think for 10 months we were on something like 3-3.5hrs but I wouldn't swear by it...

[babybarr]

Did the NWs coincide with starting solids?  My DS would wake frequently when starting solids as his tummy couldn't handle it.  I would say he's still very young to be dropping the catnap.  Usually happens from 6mths...

[arabesque]

Thanks everyone.

Laura, NWs have increased since solids I guess, but really they were also a problem that was beginning in the weeks before solids. I can't say whether there's a link...

Weeza, thanks for your reply too. DS2 is nearly 5 months (one week to go) so getting to the age you mentioned with Oscar. Thanks for all your tips.

Jenny, DS1 is sick with a cold and DS2 is slightly snuffly, but this problem has been building for weeks. I also wondered about teeth...he's drooly, has firey red cheeks and sucks everything, but no tooth in sight. If it's anything to go by DS1 was 8mo when his first tooth broke.

So, today we dropped the catnap. Poor DS was so tired he had a microsleep (10 seconds, I kid you not) about 6pm then was fine to make it to feed and bed. I had hoped he'd sleep a bit longer for nap 2 but he woke at 2:55pm.

So a huge long A time, and.............he's slept through from 6:50pm until DF!! (currently 10:05pm!) Now fingers crossed to see how he goes tonight!

Thanks again to everyone for your comments

[benners318]

Anxious to hear how the night went Bec!!!  What a relief for him to sleep just straight from 7-10!  I would drop the DF too as Lis suggested.  If he's waking anyway so many times it's seems unnecessary to have to wake him for a DF.  I went through that with Elliott.  What I would do was when he woke around that DF time as long as it was 4 hours past his last feed I'd feed him and another other wakings I'd try to get him back to sleep.

 As for the routine with no catnap....in all honesty, I would just follow the day as it went even if it went off a normal BW schedule a little. So in other words, if I were you I'd just follow your same routine that you posted on BW and instead of waking him after nap two, I'd let him sleep through how ever long it is and just BF him when he wakes up and then continue with your routine of supper at 530 and bedtime feed at 640. It's definitely tanking him up isn't that a BW thing too?

[arabesque]

Thanks Jenny...well he slept 7-DF, then til about 2-something, the we dummied him about 6 or 8 times again. The reason we stuck with the dummy (for this week) is that we thought it would be too much change to lose the catnap and have a day upheval, as well as a night one. So when he's used to no catnap we'll work on dropping the dummy. he's so not hungry when he wakes, we are trying to work out wghats going on as it wasnt always like this. but all in all, a not so bad night!

Theres a lot going on right now that's making me emotional as well as lack of sleep...DS1 has skin prick tests at hospital tomorrow to try to find the cause of his allergy symptoms; we also took him to the dentist last weejk and she took one look and referred us to a pediatric dentist...possible tooth removal or plastic crowns as hus bite and chewing is affected by his extra tooth and pointy teeth. Guess im just emotionally worn down...ready for a break!

Despite this DH and i have been talking about whether or not to have #3, and how soon. Sounds crazy but im the more keen one...id love to be pregnant again. i also feel like i missed out a lot on F's first few months as we had to get the house in order after moving the day before he was born!

[benners318]

Well I think I might be a LOT emotional if I were you too!  Good for you to be thinking of baby #3 while going through so many different craziness issues with Finn these first few months.  My #3 is 10 months old and i'm still having a hard time figuring that out...the thought of another.  I can see how you feel you missed out on his first few months.  I think I might have to move again if I were to get pregnant lol, cuz it was a blessing moving during the pregnancy to help keep my mind off of how uncomfortable I was with my issues I was having.

Sorry to hear about Toby.  I wasn't sure what you meant by hus bite and chewing.  That's right Toby has a extra tooth too like Aidan, forgot about that.  When you say hus bite do you mean like his teeth aren't aligning properly?  Don't get too concerned yet, just take it appt by appt ok?  Maybe the pediatric dentist will say it's not so bad.  I had that issue with Will when I had him to a regular dentist and he had me crying by the time I got out of the office tell me all sorts of things that were bad with Will's teeth/mouth.  When I got to the pediatric dentist turns out that it was not as big a deal as the other dentist made it seem.

Good luck with Toby's appt.  Praying that you and he survives with out too much trauma, and praying you get some answers.

[arabesque]

Thanks Jenny. The "hus" was supposed to be "his" but I was typing with one hand

He has an extra tooth and his teeth are pointy, so he doesn't have a flat surface to bite with. Also one of his teeth is coming into contact with his upper palate as he bites, rather than a tooth (because he has an overbite) so there's quite possibly a bit of work to be done. I just hope it wont be painful

Anyway better go, I need to feed #2! Thx again for your support here

[babybarr]

Arabesque - I really think your LO is probably still too young to drop that catnap.  You don't want to have an OT baby on your hands, especially with all the NWs.

I think like you said that the dummy is probably an issue - maybe start a thread on the props board, if you let us know what it is we'll pop over and support you.

[Tweakster]

Hi there, just popping by to confirm what Laura says, he's really too young to dump the CN with such low A times.  You would have a really long A to bedtime and it would start to catch up and manifest in more NW and EW.  He might compensate in the first day or so, but eventually you will have some pretty ugly OT.

Your LO is just over 4.5 mths based on your original post, normally LOs of this age are doing 2-2.25 hr A times and 2x 1.5 hr naps + CN to bedtime.  When LO is consistently doing 3 hrs A time, you can think about getting rid of the CN.

(((hugs))) I know how hard it is, it's a really tough age for these LOs as development starts to really kick off, teething, growth spurts, a lot goes on in the first 12 mths!

[gpmom]

Wow Bec I did not know about Tobes issues too!  Hugs for you.  you are my hero!!!

I hate that there is no great answer.  I hope tonight goes good for you.  I remember re plugging and re plugging Daisy.  I would do 2 and then Wade would do one.  It was hell...but like Weezy said it did not last long!!  It is hard to say the cn is not the issue when it worked tonight.  I guess you will just have to listen to your mommy instincts on that one.  See how it plays.  I feel so out of practice on babies......

[arabesque]

Wow, okay, Im feeling pretty confused now. I know it's early to drop the catnap, but the 2 days we haven't had it he actually seemed a lot happier in the day and settled much better for the night. Anyway we've had a mucked up day today due to DS1s allergy tests so I guess today is a bit of a write-off.

I certainly don't want an OT baby, but he's quite capable of 2.5h A time. Yesterday he woke at 3:35 from Nap 2 and went to bed at 6:45, and woke for the dummy at nearly 9pm. So that was a huge A time before bed but he went off to sleep without a sound and even though he woke before DF, he still slept better than he has for many weeks. I'd really like him to keep the catnap a bit longer but he was resisting it so much it almost seems like he's breathed a sigh of relief that I've stopped bugging him about it! He's 5 months in one week.

I'll pop over to the props board and post there too.

Thanks everyone