7mo frequent NWs

[Rizzo]

I have posted before on NWs, but am still having problems. I have a 7mo DS - at the moment, we are having shocking nights (waking 9pm, 12am, 3am, or thereabouts), and demanding to be fed (bit dummy dependent at the moment too, have tried to settle without a feed, but it is so difficult with a touchy/spirited/grumpy baby..).

We are having a good first nap of the day (usually 1hr 30m), but his A time is usually less than 2 hours (not sure if this is because of the frequent NWs).

For the past few days, the second nap has been 30-40m, and waking up happy, so assumed this is UT, and kept him up for 2hrs 30m today (slept for 1hr 20m). We are now napping for 3rd nap of the day (A time 2hrs 20m).

Is it possible the frequent NWs are due to him a) having too short A times and b) needing to drop the CN c) me being a prop for getting back to sleep?

I thought he may have been teething, but nurofen and panadol on different nights has done nothing at all.

He is also a heavy night wetter, so sometimes he wakes as he is wet, and demands to be fed too...

Help!!! I am exhausted!!!

[jackman]

Hi Rizzo - I saw that you posted on my issue so I popped over here to see what is happening with your lo. First, hugs to you and hopefully others or even someone who is more experienced than me will be able to help you through this. You should post your EASY as that helps to trouble shoot.

Feeding at night can become a prop especially if you know your lo is getting enough calories during the day. These were signs for me that DS was using his milk feeds at night as a way for him to fall back to sleep:
- eats 3 solid meals a day
- drinks at least 20oz of formula (since you BF, I can't be much help here)
- would wake around same time every night
- only drink 2-3oz when I would milk feed at night
- would drink no more than his usual amount once I fed him first thing in the morning
We are still dealing with the habitual wake ups at night, but it has been nearly a week since I weaned him. It is hard, but I even noticed a difference after the first night.

Let's start with your EASY and see where we can go from there.

Hang in there. I know how you feel!
 

[zebstiredmum]

Hi Rizzo

Hugs to you.  I second what Jackman says - very likely to be habitual waking if you've always fed at night.  I night weaned my LO at just over 4 months as he'd gone through the night a couple of times spontaneously, so I knew he could, and also he wasn't feeding for long in the morning, so I figured he was still full up from night feeds (2-3 a night). 

It IS hard but it definitely pays off in the long run.  I had about 8 blissful weeks of no NWs!! Unfortnately am having a few now, but not due to hunger - maybe teething, or OT since dropping the CN.  I'm not much help with the EASY bit, and judging OT or UT but I can recommend trying PUPD to wean night feeds - initially I was just trying to wean to 1 NW/feed when I did it, but within a week he'd started STTN!!  It might take a bit longer as your LO is older...  Good luck! 

[Rizzo]

Thanks for both replying. Which NW do I try and wean first - the one around 10pm or the one around 2am?
My theory was when he was getting 3 solid meals a day I should be able to wean, but i dont think that is happening at the moment.


The EASY is a bit random - he has never really got onto any sort of routine, but I'll post a rough idea. It is roughly a 4hr EASY, sometimes 3.5hr.

6-6.30am - wake. usually BF as gets grumpy otherwise
A 1hr 30 - 1hr 40m: battling with this now, as last few days has been waking after 40m nap (tried 2hr wake time, but did the same)
7.30/8am - NAP 1 (was 1.5hr, last few days 40min)
9am ish - solids - breakfast
10-10.30 BF (A 2.5 hr - have just started a longer A time)
11/12pm - NAP 2 (1.5hr)
Lunch - slotted in either before nap, or after BF after nap
2pm - BF
4.30pm -CN
5pm - solids dinner
5.30pm - BF
6.30 - top up BF and bed

NW - for last 2 days, have been 10pm, 2am (were 9pm, 12am, 3am)

[jackman]

Rizzo - is your lo taking a full milk feed at every feeding during the night? That is how you can tell whether or not the nightfeedings are still needed if you feel that your lo isn't eating solids very well. You should probably post on the BF board and ask about weaning your nightfeedings as I'm not an expert with BF. When I weaned, I started with the earliest feeding the first night and gave a bottle for the early morning feeding. Then the second day, I went cold turkey with both feedings. Again this is FF.

On initial look at your EASY, I think your lo's A times are really low for his age. Sometimes NWs can indicate lo's needing longer A times and I would start trying to lengthen the first A time by 10 to 15 min every 3 days until you reach 2hrs 45 min. Just be careful that the increase isn't too big that it turns into an OT nightmare.

Looks as though your lo is utilizing the first nap as still part of his night sleep, so try to stretch it. You said that your lo did a first A time of 2hrs before? I would try 2hr 10min and see if you can get a longer nap out of him (at least 1.5hrs). If yes, stay there for a couple of days and then increase again until you reach the appropriate A time. Eventually, you will do the same with the second A time and once you can get A times at 3 hrs, the CN will disappear. And that will bring in a new bag of issues that Zebstiredmum and I are dealing with currently.

Also, you could check out some sample 7mo EASY's to help you establish a routine for your lo.   

What do you think?

[Rizzo]

Thanks Jackman. Not sure if he is taking a full feed - he is a really quick feeder during the day too... all i know is when i give formula at the 10pm feed, some nights he has 150ml, some nights only 80ml. Sometimes he refuses the formula and only wants a BF - as i said, no predictability at all!!

I thought the NWs may be needing longer A times - at the moment, we are struggling with the first nap (he again did 40mins) - he was up for almost 2hrs. And yes, he has always seemed to use the first nap as extra night sleep, as not long ago i used to put him to bed only 1hr after waking..

I could post on the BF board too re the night weaning. I was thinking of dropping the 10pm feed - he actually slept through it last week (once) and woke at 1.30am.

How old is your lo?

[zebstiredmum]

Hi Rizzo

I think you definitely need to try and extend your morning A time as it is very short and could be an extension of night time sleep. 

The 10pm feed I would class as a Dream Feed rather than a NW - is it a feed that your LO has always waked and asked for or did you put it in as a DF?  We started getting NWs around 7months, and I think in part they were caused by us DFing still, which was disturbing LOs sleep cycle, as they have more or less stopped since we dropped the DF just over a week ago.

So, I think yes, the 10pm feed is probably the one to drop first.  I BF but once I dropped this feed I started topping up with FF after bedtime BF - it's made a huge difference to how well he settles too so I think my supply is low in the evening.  As LO is 8months, and I'm planning to stop BFing in the next couple of months I can't be bothered to try and increase my pm supply.

Was FF occasionally at the DF from 7 months old, and my LO too took a varying amount from 150ml to as little as 60ml.  I didn't think he was ready to drop it, but clearly he was, as didn't wake for feed at all after dropping it!

[Rizzo]

OK, will try and extend the first nap tomorrow am, despite his eye rubbing and grumpiness!!

I did the occasional DF, but 95% of the time I fed when he woke (this varied from 9-11pm). This evening he woke at 8.45pm - tried for 40 MINS to resettle him without feeding... i gave up...

I am also offering FF at bedtime 6.45pm - he refused it this evening (dinner at 5pm, BF 5.20pm and again at 6.20pm).

[jackman]

Rizzo have you ever tried to feed your lo when he wakes at 6/6:30 and see if he will go back to sleep for an hour or two? Especially if you had multiple NWs the previous night? Once he wakes after going back to sleep, start your day then?

My lo is 8mo...

[Rizzo]

Well, last night was an absolute shocker!! HE woke at 8.45, 11.30pm, 1.30am, 3.30am and 5.30am (his clothes were wet at 11.30pm and 5.30am). I thought it was 6.30am when he woke up, so got up and fed him, then realised the time!! I was obviously tired!!

Yes, I have tried to feed him at 6/6.30am and put him back to bed- he has normally pooed, so have to change his nappy, which wakes him up fully. His sleep after this varied from 30mins to 1.5hrs ,and some days he wouldnt settle, which made me think he wasnt tired enough to go back to sleep.

I have tried just about every trick - back to bed ASAP, staying up until showing tired signs, pushing him a little longer...

This morning (due to the very early waketime - and given that he had a wakeful night), I did put him back to bed after feed and nappy change - he slept for 30mins...

Then, gave him solids for breakfast, stretched him to 2hours (he was SO grumpy), and so far he is still sleeping... (so, will be a 1.5hr nap. Yeah!!)

I guess what I find difficult, is judging how many hours he should have in the day vs teh night.. ie, if bedtime is 7pm, then is he better to have a waketime of 6-6.30am (11-11.5hrs at night)? I dont know what the recommendation is for night sleep at this age..

[Huds Mom]

Hi Rizzo, gosh I feel your frustration as I am feeling everything is wonky! Jackman had a good post a couple weeks ago where she started eliminating each problem so I have taken that approach. As far as hours go, I read at 7months they need 3hrs during the day and anywhere from 10.5-12 at night.

I dont want to offer any advice but for me a 4hr easy and dropping the CN really helped. it took a few days and resulted in some very early bedtimes (sometime 5pm - which means a early morning wake up) but is natural to drop that nap at this age so we are sticking with it and will start with longer activity times in a few weeks which will push out his bed time.

Also, the trick I have used for dealing with wetting through is a Huggies OVernight and a pull up training pant and i dont need to change him from BT to morning. The diaper is wet but no leaks.

Good luck and let me know how it goes.

Carrie

[jackman]

Rizzo - I'm sorry to hear about the terrible night. I have been there so I feel your pain. And I know what you mean about trying everything and it just doesn't seem to help. Hugs to you.

Congrats on getting your lo to sleep for 1.5 hrs for his first nap. Keep pushing the first A time for your lo by at least 15min every 3 days until you get to 2.45 or 3hrs. I know it will be rough for your lo, but it will help.

As Huds Mom stated, 3hrs of sleep during the day and around 10.5-12hrs of sleep at night is great. My DS averages 3hrs during the day and I have found that a long morning nap of 2hrs and short afternoon nap of 1hr has been working really well for us the last few days. I'm still trying to pinpoint DS' A time after his afternoon nap to BT, but lately it has been 3hrs.

Can you post your EASY from yesterday? What was the A time after your good morning nap?

You are doing a good job. Keep going....

[Rizzo]

Thanks for the encouragement!! Its tough - esp with his personality (and me hating him crying..) Guessing i have to try to drop his daytime sleep down a little... but at the moment he is having about 3.5-4 hours of day sleep, and 11hours of interrupted night sleep.

OK EASY from yesterday and today so far:
2.45am - fed to sleep
woke 5.45, but I got up at 6.15am to BF (A 1hr 45m)
7.30am - fed to sleep (was getting desperate..) - NAP1 45mins (7.30-8.15am)
8.30 solids breakfast
A 2hr 10m (8.15 till 10.30am)
BF 10am
NAP2 2hrs (10.30-12.30pm)
12.30pm - lunch solids
A 2hr 20m (12.30 till 3pm)
2pm BF
NAP3 1hr 15m (3-4.15pm)
5pm - dinner solids
5.20pm - BF
6.20pm - top up BF
Bed 6.45pm, asleep 7pm (A time 2.45hrs)
Woke 8.45 - fed 9.15pm (45mins to try to settle with dummy and PU/PD)
Woke 11.30pm - fed
Woke 1.30am - fed
Woke 3.30am - fed
Woke 5.30am, fed 5.50, bed 6.10am, 30m nap
7am - breakfast solids A time 2hrs, then 2hr nap

[Rizzo]

Huds mum,

Thanks for your advice too. I didnt know whether DS has always needed more sleep, as he gets overstimulated easily, and becomes very hyper when he is tired/overstim.

I would say he gets about 3.5-4hrs of day sleep, and about 11hrs night sleep (but interrupted). I will try and cut it down to 3 hours during the day, in 2 naps and a CN, then in 2 naps when i can stretch his A times a bit longer. I will have to go back to Jackmans posts and re-read them. How old is your lo?

I dont think we have huggies overnight in Australia..i cant find them.. I am going to experiment with a reusable bamboo night nappy and see how it goes.

I will keep you posted!!

[jackman]

Rizzo - I too hate it when my lo cries, but really it is the only way they know how to communicate with us, right?

Is there anyway for you to try and hold out your lo at night especially when it has only been two hours since he last ate? I know you are tired and he is crying, but he is snacking at night or using you as a prop to go back to sleep. If you want to break him of this, you will have to combine the night feedings into at least two to start with and then eliminate them one by one. I would really try hard to only feed him at 1:30am and then again at 5:30am. You also have to work hard at making sure he is drinking and eating enough during the day so that you know he can make it until 1:30am.

If he wakes don't feed him right away. Continue with the dummy or some form of PUPD that works for you to really 'test' if he is hungry or he is using as a prop. I would hold my DS when I was weaning him at night. Once he stopped crying. I let him lay next to me until he fell asleep and then I transferred him to his crib. I only had to do this for two nights and by the third, if DS woke because he thought he had to eat, I would pick him up and wait till he stopped crying and then laid him down in his crib. Now, if he does wake he just rolls around on his own and eventually falls asleep on his own.

Is there anyway you can try this? It will be hard, but it will also be worth it.