Strategy for NW's almost 8 month old

[j9mchn]

I'm looking for a strategy to finally tackle my (almost) 8 mo night wakings.
There is a bit of history so bare with me.
Right now his night wakings are random there does not seem to be a pattern (I'm an analyst and quit writing things down months ago when I couldn't find any patterns!).  He generally gets a BF as thats a habit that started a long time ago.  He's still very windy (did have reflux which is very rare now) so has to be burped after every feed so is generally awake when he goes down.  On the odd occasion I'll be spending up to two hours to get him down after a night feed due to trapped wind (this used to be a nightly occurence but now maybe once a week).  He has slept for 10 hours before - he tends to have 3 good nights and 10+ bad/baddish where he could be up between 2-3 times.

His daytimes are pretty good now.  He's up for 2.5 - 3 hrs and sleeps for 1.5 - 2.5 hours for his naps.  Putting him down has its ups and downs.  I got him self-settling from about 6 weeks, but we always seem to develop props along the way of which I have to eliminate (again).  The new one is daddy whose just started putting him down and now I've realised he's been holding him to sleep grrrr!  I don't seem to be able to follow the general pu/pd for his age as I'm always worried he might have wind - so have to pick him up to check.

He has no dummy but has white noise on (most of the time).  Milestones - crawling.  I can't blame it on teething as when he's had some good sleeps teeth have popped through.  I don't dreamfeed - have tried many times - the last time for a week - when I stopped he had his "3 good nights"!

So basically I want a strategy....Do I just go cold turkey with the nightly BF's?  He does take one bottle a day with the childminder (with him 4 hrs per day) - should I give him small portions and wean him off?  If I go cold turkey (and since he hasn't fed for a while and shouldn't have wind) do I just perservere with leaving him in the cot with the pu/pd technique for his age?  If so, how long would I leave him crying (with me there of course) before picking him up?  I vaguely remember going dummy cold turkey with DD1 and just holding her hand while she was in the cot and there was lots of crying but 10 days later and I had a "sleeper-througher" - I'm wondering if I should perpare myself for that?

I've been meaning to write this for months - glad I've finally done it - and looking forward to your response!

[Colin Macs Mom]

Mostly I'm bumping this for you, but wanted to give you this link -

http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=46907.0

[j9mchn]

Hi thanks for the link.  I will give that a go - but first I need to get DS taking bottle from me.  I don't think this would work with BF'ing as I've tried in the past and he just gets worked up when I delatch him too soon!  However,  I'm not convinced he is actually hungry - bearing in mind he does have the 3 good nights 10 bad (where good = anything 7pm till 3am-7am) - but my "breast" is definitely the default - so offering a bottle will certainly stir things up!

[Colin Macs Mom]

Is your DH willing to help out here? A lot of people have much better luck and the process goes a lot faster when dad steps in and offers the bottle. And you're right, at his age it's not too likely that he genuinely needs the feed at night. It's not unheard of, but it's definitely safe to assume it's time to get rid of it.

[j9mchn]

Don't seem to be getting anywhere...
Night 1:  convinced DH to help.  Awoke 10.30 took FF from DH, got bad wind, DH winged and moaned about resettling him but made him continue - took 1 hr before back to sleep.  Awoke 3.30am I gave BF back to sleep.
Night 2:  Awoke 10.30 DH gave FF straight back down.  Awoke 2.30am with blanket around head  , very hot, took FF of me - not sure if fever (DD had one day before) or just overheated - after meds took a while to resettle.  Backup up 5.30am BF, took till 6.15 to resettle back up 10 minutes later and just had to start the day.
Night 3:  Awoke 12 DD gave FF, straight back down.  Awoke 5.00am I tried FF - wasn't havin it!  Gave BF instead and back down.
Nigth 4:  Awoke 10.45 I tried FF - not havin it, so gave BF and here I am now - will not resettle, I've lost it (after DD awoke for attention more than anything) and DH lost it.  The night has not finished - I am writing at 11.50!

The thing thats irritating me is the whole self-settling day thing seems to have gone out the window.  To be honest its probably been getting worse ever since DH got involved several weeks ago.  He won't go down without being picked up and "winded" even though he may not have any wind anymore - this = pat on back in upright position with some bobbing.  Urgh, I'm so annoyed - the pain I put myself through when he was a newborn to teach him to self-settle, time and time again I've had to "reteach" him.  I just don't know how to do it anymore...

Additionally the childminder doesn't seem to have any problems - but it probably doesn't help me that 5 days a week I'm not there for four hours to see whats going on.  She still puts him down how I showed her 5 weeks ago (actually I should double-check hows she's doing it now)!  The only problem she seems to have is when she doesn't realise he's got wind (generally I'll get home pick him up and he'll burp or spew over me!).

[Colin Macs Mom]

So you're still feeding at night - are those at least reduced amounts? Not sure exactly what your plan is?

[j9mchn]

He was bf during night so trying out ff with reduced amounts and watered down.  But it looks like apart from the one flukey night he's not gonna take ff off me without a battle

[Colin Macs Mom]

Ok then - yes that's why I suggested that DH help out. LO can smell your milk so it will definitely be a battle for him to accept a bottle from you. It usually goes much smoother with DH, who doesn't smell like milk   But even so, it is a process and you likely won't see results immediately.

And.... I mean this very gently, I do.... but every one of those 4 nights you posted above, you caved and gave BF. You definitely aren't going to get anywhere that way.

[j9mchn]

I know what you're saying - but I actually don't know what to do in this situation?  I wish DH would take over nights - but I think the best I'm going to get out of him is once per night - so what do I do if the FF is refused from me??

[Colin Macs Mom]

so what do I do if the FF is refused from me??

Then don't feed at all. I would PU/PD instead. It really will be harder if it's you, but you're going to have to stick to your guns and be consistent.

[j9mchn]

Ok...deep breath, I'll give it a go!  I always thought I have to be able to do this during the day if I can do it during the night.  Since I've been having issue putting him down during the day (ie holding and patting as prop) I put him down this arvo without picking him up and just saying "its sleepy time" - it took over an hour of crying!  I actually was just out of the room as he just wants to look at me when I'm in the room.  Do you think I'm doing the pu/pd technique correct for his age?  If I read it correctly you don't actually PU at this age just reasure with words.  He doesn't generally settle when I pick him up without the patting and bobbing (ie burping motion) .

[Colin Macs Mom]

I can't speak from experience since we never did PU/PD, but this is what it says:

6-8 MONTHS OLD - Pu/pd becomes more of a partnership at this age and it is key that you follow your baby’s pace and make the following adaptations to the basic procedure;

·   You don’t pick them up as a matter of course but you offer them pick up. You hold your hands to your baby and say “let me pick you up” and you pick them up when they reach to you. 
·   You pick them up in a cradle position and say “It’s okay, we’re just going to sleep.”. Don’t rock or sway and don’t make eye contact. 
·   Put them down immediately after you say your key phrase. 
·   Once your baby starts to soothe you continue to soothe with words and a hand for presence if this helps your baby.  Some babies may find this too disruptive so you take your baby’s lead. 

8 MONTHS TO A YEAR - At this age you really don’t do any pick up as babies 8 months and up tend to soothe faster in the crib. 

·   You wait for them to stand up or pull up and then you place them back down so they are looking away from you and not at your face.
·   If you feel they are truly frantic and need more you can pick them up for a moment but you put them straight back down. 
·   At this age it’s important to use your voice even more.  Your baby will start to recognize what you are saying, eg. “I’m not  leaving you, you’re not alone, it’s nap time” etc. 
·   At this age you may need to pair pu/pd with gradual leaving of the room.  First you stay in the room until asleep, then move a few feet from the crib, in a few days you move to the door, then out the door. 


Since he is 8 mo you can go either way depending on what you think will work. You can do this!!

[j9mchn]

Yes, I've read through that many times which is where I came up with my new putting down system...buuuuut i've now got another spanner to add to the works.  This afternoon I realised he has separation anxiety - now I look back its been coming on for two weeks which ties into why he's been progressively a pain to actually put down and seems to also coincide with him crawling.  This evening he was a nightmare to put down - I tried to be consistent but I just couldn't - he was literally throwing himself around the cot. So I had to keep picking him up - he wouldn't settle like that - then would restle with me so I put him down again and so on for an hour or more.  IN the end he had a bf - i know, i know, I've just totally confused him and wasted both of our time!   I'm now thinking that I've got to tackle this settling thing before focussing on the night wakings.  I just need to figure out how to settle him happily during the day before trying it at night!!! 

I guess I should move onto another board now?  I really don't know how to deal with separation anxiety and pu/pd adaption (DD never got it!)  It doesnt' seem to matter how many times I read BWSAYP or the FAQs - I just need to be told what to do!!!  Aw geez what to do?

[Colin Macs Mom]

He's rather young for SA, that doesn't usually set in until around 10 mo at the earliest. Are you sure it's not just the crawling? That milestone is really brutal on sleep! Ugh I remember those days so well.

Do you want to post your daily routine? Maybe some tweaks there might help?

[j9mchn]

He hasn't really ever been the type of baby to cry/winge unless something was wrong - poos, wind, tired etc but recently whenever I leave the room he will winge/cry, then crawl around trying to find me.  With the childminder he's worse - will really get going if she leaves the room and will take a while to resettle.  At times she has won't even be able to put him just sitting next to her - will have to put him in her lap.  I was just putting it down to tiredness and to be honest he was a bit better today.  Would you believe he slept from 7pm till 5am last night!!!  Then at 5am wouldn't take FF from DH??  See how random he is!

Here is what happened today which was a good day:
E 7am BF
E 8am brekki
A playcentre
S 10
E 11.30 BF
E 12.30 lunch
S 14.15
E 1600 FF with childminder
E 1730 dinner
E 1800 BF
A 1815 bath
S  1845

Until last night the BF was generally the last thing but did a switcheroo - even though he's was awake when I'd put him down - just something I read (again) yesterday 
Like I said that was a good day tbh his days are pretty much as random as his nights - I've never been able to keep him on any strict routine as I would need to respond to eg 45 min naps with an earlier naptime etc.  Do you think I should be "stricter"?