Food throwing - I'm losing my mind. I need it to STOP!!!!

[Mashi]

I have not tried things randomly for a few days....I agree with picking battles and sticking to a plan, but I also think that when it's becoming apparent that a method is not working you have to give up and try something new! That's what i am looking for is something new!

[Shiv52]

LOL!  

I was seriously thinking of investing in ear plugs today just to block it out!  It is funny though that she has started to say 'mummy i want x?' 'mummy i want x?' (x10!) 'Siobhan? are you listening to me?'  'Siobhannnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn?'  

I am blaming lack of napping here!  


Have you tried a very basic reward?  (I know you aren't big into that).  So place his fav biscuit or whatever on the table out of reach and say 'We are going to eat dinner.  No throwing anything.  If you throw there is NO biscuit'.  I am not big into rewards as I know too well how they can become bribes (especially where my DH is concerned) but sometimes when something has become so engrained and is so reinforcing as mummy and daddy get cross/react it can help to completely change the dynamic and make it worth his while not to throw.  Until he realises that his throwing is going to have a consequence on him I don't think he will stop IYKWIM?  

You could practice it with very small snacks through the day...so give him 2/3 grapes (1 at a time if necessary!) and have a fav food there so there is a quick response to him eating properly and you can be all excited about 'no throwing...woo hoo...eating properly' and here is your 'x'.  If he throws oh dear, you can remove the 'treat' (preferred food!) and say 'oh well you threw, there is no x, now just put the 'grape' on the tray, there is no throwing'  and then do Clare's strategy.  

So you are providing an incentive to not throw but are going to follow through regardless?  Or do you not think it would bother it to lose a preferred food/toy etc?

{{{hugs}}} And if you have any good strategies for the whining, please let me know!!!

[Mashi]

We could try that Shiv....I know back when he was not eating AT ALL  (you probably remember!!) we were trying that and it was not working because as soon as he was seeing the treat (or heard the word pudding) he was freaking out and refusing to eat anything because he just wanted the treat...so would end up getting nothing at all.  He's 6 months older now so it might work, he might be a bit more able to comprehend it.  As you say (and I think you know my DH in this situation ) it can easily become a bribe so I'd have to have a good talk with DH about it first and set some rules that we both agree on.

My concern with using a reward of a treat/pudding/preferred food is that it becomes a reward for behaviour and not for eating. So he doesn't throw anything but he also doesn't EAT anything...so can he really have pudding if he's not eaten dinner?  Kwim?  How can I get around that? I am currently trying to get this through to DH when he says things along the lines of "you've been a good boy so you can have a biscuit" and I think that sweets/treats are not a reward for good behaviour but a "reward" (for lack of better word) for good eating ... you can be the most well behaved kid in the world but in my books it doesn't mean you can eat biscuits all day. You can be the most frustrating little whinger in the world and refuse to pick up your toys or play nicely, but if you ate all of your healthy foods you can have a treat food.  Kwim? Not saying no, or that I don't think it would work, but help to talk me through how I can work these two things together?!!! Kwim?

[MummyToBen]

I have a question though...and maybe it's not what you went through so it might just take your thoughts on the parenting book you read but what would you do if it was say a piece of bread that he threw on the table?  There's no bowl...would you just pick the bread up and tell him "please put it on the table nicely?" What if it is a tiny bowl full of peas and he dumps the peas and puts the pot on the table - would you get down and pick up the peas, put them in the pot and then tell him he needs to do it nicely?  

I think it depends on what you think Mini-Mashi would be able to do at this age.  One of my principles is that I want to set Ben up to succeed not fail, (so to reach a 'level' of eating nicely that we can all be happy with, but accepting that it isn't going to be anywhere near perfect for quite a long while yet!) - so I *know* that I would find it VERY hard to get Ben to put all his peas back into a bowl if there was more than two or three and I'd have to come up with something else!!  But I suppose this depends on what they are capable of/age/temperament etc.  I try to work out what Ben can do and then set the rules around this level, and try to implement them in a way that is not infuriating to him!!

One thing I'm still trying to figure out is what to ignore/just remind him about rather than make a big deal of, or whether it makes things worse to ignore some stuff  .  So at the start of EVERY meal time Ben throws his fork on the floor , and I've pretty much ignored it - just saying "forks don't go on the floor, then stay on the table" and not saying any more about it.  But I don't know if that undermines the other stuff we are focusing on - but I hate feeling like I'm on his back about every little thing.  I really want us to be on the same side, and to maintain good relationship throughout him learning this stuff!!

A couple of things have helped us
 - having a 'special' place for unwanted food, and he is reminded of this at every meal.  So normally my plate, or his mat wherever he wants to put it (he likes having a choice I think).
- he has a mat in front of his plate so that when he has finished he pushes his bowl forward onto it.  That simple thing (combined with the 50 minute episode!) has really helped - the specific ACTION of pushing his bowl forward rather than just being expected to leave it in one place when he has finished!! It's like his little arms feel the need to communicate to us that he has finished his meal...and whereas previously that was by throwing his plate he now pushes it  !!
Other thing is if Ben is tired and grouchy I 'help' him more - I would hold his hands while we put the plate back on the table as I know if I don't we will pretty much never get there.  Sort of like when I 'help' him do gentle hands rather than just tell him to do it - I know he could jolly well still decide to give me another whack straight afterwards and so I see it as a success when he doesn't!!

Not even sure if I've answered your original question Mashi, oops  !!  Time for my bed I think!!

x

[Colin Macs Mom]

I / We have tried everything I can think of and nothing is working.  I'm not sure if we've not been consistent enough or if we expected results too soon, but nothing has worked so far.

Mashi I think what Lana meant was referring to this. If you aren't feeling confident that you've been consistent enough or stuck with something long enough, then you probably haven't.

What I found was that we had to just keep at our plan and never deviate from it or give up. For example, because Colin had reflux pretty badly he was held for naps until it was under control enough for him to sleep even a little flat. At that point he was about 6 mo old so it was a pretty solid prop. In the book Tracy says that it takes two weeks to break a habit. It took us 2.5 MONTHS. No joke. I don't mean any of this as a criticism, I just want to encourage you to keep at it.

[Mashi]

Claire that's a good start for me anyway - I'll get a new bowl or plate or something today that we can use and have him put his unwanted stuff there...see how this goes.   I know that at least half of it for him is the fun of it all so it might not get us 100% but I will see - try to come up with a plan with DH tonight and see what we can do.   I will keep you posted on progress (and how long we sit at the table for!!!!)

[Shiv52]

My concern with using a reward of a treat/pudding/preferred food is that it becomes a reward for behaviour and not for eating. So he doesn't throw anything but he also doesn't EAT anything...so can he really have pudding if he's not eaten dinner?  Kwim?  How can I get around that?

My goodness Mashi!  You had me thinking all night! 

Ok from a behavioural point of view you would never attempt to reduce a behaviour (ie. the throwing) without expecting it to have a replacement behaviour (ie. sitting and eating properly) so from a reinforcement (ie. the treat) point of view it would be fine to say 'here are the rules at dinner...there is no throwing food, we sit nicely and eat our food and when you are done you tell mummy and then you can have x', obviously in whatever way mini mashi will get.  Although given that he is a clever cookie I'd say he'd understand that!  So its a bit like saying you aren't allowed to do 'x' as this is what you should be doing.   So it is absolutely fine to expect no throwing and sitting and eating to get the reward IYSWIM? 

Someone mini-mashi's age though might not get it initially and therefore intermittent reinforcement could be the way to go.  So not just 'dinner then treat' but break up the meals so that he gets the idea quicker.  It can be a pain but is much more successful in the longterm. 

So you'd have lunch....set him up, have it on the plate and his treat broken up in to bits out of reach.  Give him a small plate and put 2 things on it and say 'ok lets eat lunch nicely then get x'.  Once he has popped the second piece of food in his mouth you get very excited and say 'wow check you out eating so nicely and wow no throwing, I'm going to get you some x' and hand him a bit of his treat.  And on it goes.  You gradually increase the amount of food you expect him to eat before getting anything and then once he is consistently eating and not throwing you fade out the treat altogether.   

Does that make sense? 

The benefit from doing it this way is you are being fair to him and making sure he gets it and he gets a second chance if he does throw.  If you were giving him 3 grapes say and he threw them during the meal, I'd probably say 'remember no throwing' and ignore the discarded food and pick a few other pieces of food and try again.  If he throws again I would probably assume he's finished and say 'oh if you're finished tell mummy/put your food here' and follow through on that and then leave it at that. 

{{{hugs}}}

[Mashi]

I gotcha Shiv!  So pretty much the same as what we did when trying to get him to eat his dinner in the first place...."treat" does not necessarily have to be "treat" but the favourite part of the meal (toast, peas, etc)...

He didn't throw anything tonight, which seems like a victory but the sad reality is because he put Tinky Winky at the dinner table as a stand in and refused to come himself

[teilvnav]

He didn't throw anything tonight, which seems like a victory but the sad reality is because he put Tinky Winky at the dinner table as a stand in and refused to come himself

He is such a smart little monkey, eh?

I have been lurking and am very interested in how you get on, Mashi. Nathan is also a 'thrower' and it drives me batty.

[Shiv52]

He didn't throw anything tonight, which seems like a victory but the sad reality is because he put Tinky Winky at the dinner table as a stand in and refused to come himself

Sorry Mashi but this made me laugh!!!!  He is a wee rascal!!

[Mashi]

Yep.  Worse....he came in to check on him, and reached for his sippy and held it up to Tinky's mouth. Said "yum yum yum" on Tinky's behalf.  I offered him a bite of food and he made his /kkkk/ "growl" which means "garbage" and "don't like."  So when DH said "I bet Tinky will like it"  ( ) DS grabbed Tinky and turned his face away and growled again - just to make sure poor Tinky wasn't forced to eat any of mama's nasty risotto....

Stay tuned for my thread on teeth brushing.  Always a craic in the Mashi house!!

[Shiv52]

LOL!!

Have you tried a week or two of only giving foods he really likes?  To see if over the two weeks he stops the throwing?   

[MummyToBen]

 

[Mashi]

Yes Shiv - he throws things he likes. Prefers seeing them on the floor.  In fact, at least half of the time when I get him down and make him clean up the mess, he eats half of it rather than throw it in the bin - so it's not a case of not wanting it, not liking it or not being hungry! Which just drives me even crazier!

[MummyToBen]

Yes Shiv - he throws things he likes. Prefers seeing them on the floor.  In fact, at least half of the time when I get him down and make him clean up the mess, he eats half of it rather than throw it in the bin - so it's not a case of not wanting it, not liking it or not being hungry! Which just drives me even crazier!

Yes, Ben is EXACTLY the same  .  It's not about the food (he'll do the same thing - eating it as I'm clearing it up  ), not his seat, not the surroundings, etc etc...it's just he seems to like throwing it!!! But he *is* so much better nowadays since we've been tackling it like this - so there is some light at the end of the tunnel!