EASY tweak or 2-1 trans or OT/UT cycle, pls help!!

[empowered mama]

I also agree with Sarah that his A times do seem a bit low for his age.  Though if he is teething, often they tend to want lower A times until they recover so that could be a reason why the are currently so low.

You could give him a few days to get caught up from OT and the teething, then try to gradually extend the A times and see how that affects things.  Just a thought?

[Jiinx]

Ah. teeth. She has 7 and has three coming in but I still feel clueless as ever. Her teeth surfaced, and she was still waking during naps and clingy and all around feeling ick. Maybe more of his teeth are on the move?

How was the rest of his day?

[jackman]

Hi EM and Sarah
Well yesterday naps were similar to Saturday's. AM nap was 1.5hrs after an A time of 3hrs and 50min. I know this is a big jump compared to what DS was doing previously but he wasn't showing any signs of being tired. Maybe as you both indicated, I needed to increase his first A time to get a 1.5hr nap? PM nap was 1hr20min after an A time of 3hrs15min. Thought we were gonna have a good night after a good day of naps.

On the contrary, we had multiple NWs, no EW. Woke on his own at 6:10am this morning after a rough night, so he is a bit cranky today. Not sure what I did wrong. Maybe DS had too much sleep during the day? Maybe went to bed too early (A time was 2hrs 50min, took him 20min to fall asleep), not enough A time and caused NWs? That can happen right? So worried he will get OT at BT so I try to err on the lower side for A time before BT. Or maybe teeth? Too many options to choose from or a combination of everything? I never went in to resettle during the NWs, just listened and let DS do it on his own.   

It is so frustrating!!  My DS naps well but night time sleep is a mystery. It could be teeth, but I can't feel any. We have a total of 6, but there could be more lurking about? Definitely stooped and might just have to ride things out again? What do you both think?

What would you say the typical A times for a 10mo would be?

[Jiinx]

Hi there friend,
 It is frustrating. I truly think he's entering the 2-1 phase like you mentioned initially. All of what you suggested is a possibility of what is happening: 1) too much day time sleep and 2) not enough A time.

Have you taken a look at some sample routines?
* http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=164253.0
Here's where you can refer to A times, which is 3-4 hours at his age, but possibly more:
* http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=164253.0

The last A time does seem a bit small.

My routine at his age was something like this:
7 am wake
7:30 breastfeed
A: 7-10:15-10:30
S: 10:30-11:45
A:11:45-3ish
S: 3-3:50
A: 3:50-7ish

I don't remember it too well, but I do know she was taking shorter PM naps and was able to do 3 hours with a short nap..
Again, every baby is different. Mine can handle OT and just adds sleep onto her night.

sarah

[jackman]

Hi Sarah
If DS is entering the 2-1 phase, does it mean I have to limit naps or just increase A times? I just put DS down for his AM nap after an A time of 3hrs45min. Went out in seconds. I'm thinking of just letting him sleep as long as he wants this am since he had such a rough night.

I'm trying to mimic yesterday's EASY as it gave us good naps, but probably should adjust our last A time? What do you think? Obviously I'll wait and see what our A time will be after he wakes this morning.

[empowered mama]

hi jackman,

I agree and you may want to first consider adding some A time before bedtime before you do anything else.  I would suggest at least 3 hrs, maybe even more like 3h15 and see how your night pans out.  If you continue with NWs, then we might look into a nap cut and a bit of a different routine all around.

By the way, when do most of these NWs occur?  Are they before midnight?

[jackman]

Hi EM,
We usually get at least 2 NWs and one will be around 10/10:30pm and the second around 1:30/2am. EWs when they occur are anywhere from 4-5am.

DS woke after 1hr20min nap, so I assume this is a 'good nap' and I can try for an A time of 3hrs15min this afternoon meaning PM nap will be around 2:30ish? Or do you think I should push this A time too?

I was thinking the same last A time of 3hrs or 3hrs15min based on his PM nap.

Thanks

[empowered mama]

I would focus on pushing the last A time and see how it goes.  

Hard to say about those NWs, but it could very well be due to not enough A time.  Let's see how things go with a longer A.

Let us know how things go!

[jackman]

Hi EM and Sarah
Just wanted to give you both an update. I have pushed our A times like you both suggested, but still have occasional NW and EW. Also this week, DS has been capping his own naps (especially PM nap) anywhere from 40min to an hour. When the 40 min nap occurs, I've been cutting our A times by 30 min, so 2.5hrs to BT, otherwise we target 3hrs. Could the NW and EW still be due to not enough A time before BT? DS does not handle OT very well, so not sure what to do when he gives me a 40 min nap.

EASY has been like this:
6:10am Wake
7:00am Bottle
8:30am Breakfast
10:00am Nap #1 (1.5hrs)
noon Lunch
2:00pm Bottle
2:45pm Nap #2 (40min-1hr)
4:00pm Snack
5:00pm Dinner
BT varies based on length of last nap. If 40 min, then 2.5hrs A time. If at least 1hr, then 3hrs A time.

Lately I have noticed that if DS sleeps 2hr20min - 2hr30min during the day, we'll have multiple NWs and an EW. Last couple of days DS has slept around 2hr10min or 2hr15min and we get 1NW and EW. One day he slept 2hrs DT and STTN, even 12hrs!!! So wonder if 2hrs DT sleep is the magical number? This is only one week's worth of data, so probably should just continue down my path as I have this week?

Also, if we have an EW (5am), DS will fall back to sleep after an hour and wake at 7am. When this happens we'll get a UT nap since DS can't last his usual A time and is less than if he didn't have an EW. Is this normal? If I do push his A time on a day with EW, the nap will almost be near 11am and is this getting too late in the morning? Do I just keep it this way?

Thanks and sorry for the long post.

[Jiinx]

Hi Jackman,
 Your lo is about 10 and half months?

 Well, he's definitely well into the 2-1. How to find the best possible solution for him is what we're going to figure out.

 Very good observations about your lo. My lo would not sleep more than 2 hours and 15 minutes. She would do 1 hour and 15 in the afternoon and 40 minutes (maybe 45 or 50..but that would be if I'm lucky). I would then have her do about 3 hours to bed..or around. Sometimes she would chat and sometimes she would sleep right away. I don't think I ever found a good mix.

For EWs, one of the suggestions is to cap the first nap - 20-45 minutes. 45 - 1 hour to start with, to see what happens and if that still doesn't work you may have to cut it even more.

I think the EWs or NWs are due to the amount of A he is getting...I think maybe he's getting a bit little of A time? I know he doesn't do well with OT..so approach this 2-1 as cautious as you want to be

Does that help? It's all about juggling the different amounts of naps that he's getting and trying to find the magic number...

sarah

[jackman]

Hi Sarah
DS actually just turned 10mo this past week. I think you are right about not getting enough A time before bed and it may be causing the NW and EW. As I said, this week has been about trying to figure out the best mix of naps and A time.

Last night, I was shooting for a 3hr A time to BT and DS went until 3hrs15min. Well, we had a STTN and no EW!!! Total DT sleep was 2hrs15min, so I'm gonna try and mimic the same today.

You say that I need to cap the AM nap to rid the EW? Is that the only way to address the EWs? I ask because I think DS likes the long am and short pm nap.

[Jiinx]

Oh wow. Yes, to this day my lo still just does 2 hours 10-15 minutes of sleep. Looking back, she did 2 hours between her naps. However, she was able to cap her naps by herself to my frustration...EWs are usually an indication that somethings up with their routine..too much sleep has them waking up and too little has NWs (mine does hers within the 2 hours of putting her to sleep and then 10 hours later in the morning).

It's not the only way at all..it's just a way to guarantee them to take a longer PM nap. Mine loves loves loves her nap. She's like a different person after her nap (and before, after her first nap). I couldn't ever bring myself to waking her up from her nap so I just let her wake up whenever she wanted to and struggled with her afternoon nap ..which was often close to 4 hours after she woke up (this was at 10.5 - 11 months) and then it got longer as she approached a year.

I'm so pleased he slept through the night Sounds like you're figuring things out!

[empowered mama]

That's great to hear about your night 

Glad you are back on track hun - Sarah always has some great tips

[jackman]

Hi I'm back!! Sorta at a loss right now with A times as they are all over the place. We've been dealing with sickness for a few weeks and really trying hard to get things back in order. Some days, our A times are near 4hrs and others they are 3hrs30 if DS has had NWs or EWs. BT has been an issue as it takes him forever to fall asleep if he sleeps for 45min or more for his pm nap. We had a 14hr day yesterday (EW at 5:30am) and I know that is way too long. Sorry for the rambling, what is it I need help with? Well, I'm wondering if I need to cut the pm nap to 30 min to help with BT? However I have noticed that when DS sleeps only 2hrs during the day, his night sleep is so fitfull and lots of phantom cries during the night.

This is our general EASY most days:
WU 6:30am
7:00am Bottle
8:30am Breakfast
9:45/10:00am Nap #1 (1.5hrs, most times I have to wake him)
noon Lunch
2:00pm Bottle
2:30/2:45pm Nap #2 (45min, sometimes have to wake him)
7/7:15pm Asleep

Maybe I don't need to do anything? Just feel sorry for DS as his night sleep isn't very restful with the phantom cries. Not to mention, I'm up and down like a yo-yo listening for the 'I need you Mama' cry. We are having EWs most mornings, but he can put himself back to sleep (except for yesterday). Sarah- I know you said a short am nap helps with EWs, but that is usually when he takes a good nap and I don't want to mess with it in case our pm nap is short. And the short am will help with BT too right? ARGH!! Is there another way?

Sorry for long post and TIA.

[Jiinx]

hi there!

 How are we doing on the teeth front?

 You don't have to cut the first nap...I never did, but it is something a lot of parents do. Perhaps you could increase his second A? My lo would end her second nap at 4ish..and then could do 3.5 hours or 3 hours until bedtime. Do you think his bedtime is too late? Is he happy when he wakes in the morning?