EASY tweak or 2-1 trans or OT/UT cycle, pls help!!

[Jiinx]

how'd it go last night, hun?

[jackman]

Hi Sarah
J drifted off after 2hr50 and we had short NWs before midnight. OT again? I just can't believe he wants less A time before bed, but maybe he is just not getting a restorative pm nap at 45min? At least I'm not getting EWs!! LOL. If it's not one, it's the other.

Today we again did 4hrs, but I think J was OT as he woke after 40min. I was able to put him back to sleep after 20min and the nap was in total 1hr10min. He woke at 6 this morning, but slept 11hrs (altho with 2 short NWs). Second A time was 3.5hrs and I let him sleep for another 1hr10min. I'm going to shoot for 3hr last A time, but it might end up 3.5hrs since I let him sleep longer this pm.

I was going to keep the pm nap at 45 min and have a shorter A time to bed of 2.5hrs, but his am nap wasn't ideal. So I switched it up. I just don't know what the right mix is to avoid the OT NWs. Ideas?

[Jiinx]

His last A is just quite short, no? I know you're trying to ward off OT but I really think he's getting enough sleep in his days.

This smells a bit like teething..as my daughter is doing similar thing in her naps..

I know you're tired of hearing teeth...just wondering if you medicated before a nap or before his nights? Any difference?

I don't think it's UT...so yes, it's either OT or teething, really. So we can try cutting his A back in the morning if you like to 3.5.

[jackman]

Sarah
I suspect teeth too so I have been medicating at night before he goes to bed and only sometimes during the day. He is always so quiet for a good 3-3.5hrs before he does a screech at night! Half the time he just goes right back to sleep and other times he is just a bear until I go in and reassure him everything is ok. And yes, I don't want to hear that teeth are causing us probs because I just can't believe teeth can cause such havoc for months!! 

I agree that his last A time is too short. This is what got us into a mess initially when I reached out to you and EM. So I will cut back his first A time tomorrow to 3:40 as I know that gives us a good nap of 1.5hrs and just keep to the routine that was working before I tried the 4hrs first A time.

How is your DD? Are you getting back on track?

[Jiinx]

hmm..well, I guess the best cue is how he acts when he's teething and then how he naps normally. I.e. ..if he wakes up from his nap screaming and it's only been 40 minutes then it may not be OT (it could be, mind you I have no idea sometimes) but it could really be discomfort that causes them to stir from a light sleep as he was getting ready to go into the next cycle.

Also, crying out at night..and then resettling..? Does he usually sleep right through the night? Possibly discomfort again.

Yeah I'm sick of teeth too. I mean, at least I can see my daughter's teeth coming out..I'm not sure if you're seeing anything pop out of his mouth?

Sure, so go back to the 3.5..see what that does..if you're getting EWs then it's probably low A times. Maybe increase it a little bit ...and we can go from there. The last A time is short..so maybe just increase this and go back to the usual first A time?

I don't like us messing with his A time too much. So let's do one thing and keep everything else the same so we can deduce what to change next.

She's okay. Doing EWs..crying from her nap and in the morning. It's not getting worse so at least I can stay optimistic Thanks for asking.

[jackman]

Hi Sarah
Well we had a horrible night, long NW that lasted 2hrs. In the past when teeth weren't a question, the long NWs were based on too much DS. Yesterday, I did let J sleep 2hrs40min so it could have been a factor. I even medicated and it made no difference. J then woke at 6:10am so his night sleep was only 8.5hrs.

This is where I'm uncertain - since his night was short, do I let him make it up today with his naps? He usually sleeps 11hrs at night then 2-2:15 during the day which is a total of 13hrs. Do I let him sleep nearly 3hrs today and hope that it doesn't rob his night sleep? I'm planning to go with 3:30 for A time this morn. In fact I'm just about ready to put him down.

Last night it took him nearly 30min to fall asleep. Put him in his cot at 7 and he didn't drift off until 7:30, which was an A time of 3hrs10min.

[Jiinx]

Hi!
Oh no! So sorry about your NWs! When you mentioned it took him 30 minutes - was he crying? Tired? I'm wondering if he was tired though with his sleep during the day?

I think it's okay for him to go down a bit early and make up his sleep. It's a long way until bedtime and you need him to be relatively rested at bedtime.

[jackman]

This is the funny thing, when I put J in his cot at 7, he didn't make a peep like he usually does. I thought perhaps he drifted to sleep immediately, but then 10min later I heard him babbling for a few sec. He did this on and off until 7:30 when it was dead silent, which makes me think he wasn't ready for bed at 7:15, which is what I was aiming for. No screaming or crying.

He went down so quickly this morn after 3:30A time.

[Jiinx]

okay. So the nws may have been from not enough A somewhere.

What A times can he do for sure? That last A time...what's that magic time that he goes down for usually?

I think his A time can be increased..but it may take a few days to figure out the magic number.

[jackman]

Sarah
These were J's A times yesterday:
1st A = 4hrs
2nd A = 3:30
3rd A = 3:10

I've looked back at my notes and I know that if J does at least 3:40A in the morn, he'll give me 1.5hr nap. But yesterday he woke after 40min, which is why I thought OT. The second A is a bit all over the place and still trying to find the right A, but lately I've been doing 3:30-4A and I have to wake him after 45min. Then his last A is really uncertain, but there were some days where he was doing nearly the same as his second A, 3:30-4A.

So I guess I need to start at square one. This is one reason why I went with set naps earlier as it was so hard to figure out A times. What do you think if I started following these times (obviously it is based on J waking when I want him to)?

6:30a WU
10:15a Nap #1 (1.5hrs)
3:00p Nap #2 (45min)
7:00p Bed

If we break it down by A times, that gives us:
1st A = 3:45
2nd A = 3:15
3rd A = 3:15

BT is the hardest for us. Naps are never an issue, never a fight and doesn't take him a long time to fall asleep. Sometimes it is instantaneous and others maybe 5 min for his naps, but BT is a different story. Also the occasional EWs and long NWs.

TIA

[jackman]

Well 3:30A gives us less than 1.5hrs for naps. J woke after 1hr20. So I will be targeting around 2:15pm for nap #2 which will be 3hr15min A time. Hopefully he'll sleep longer this afternoon.

[Jiinx]

It's a good formula hun. It could work.

Do you think he needs LESS A time as the day increases? Most babies need more. I haven't seen one that needs less, but I know that they exist!

You mentioned he was sleeping through the night a few weeks ago? What were his A times then? Most likely they need to go up!

Yesterday, the wake at 40 mins could definitely be OT - some babies are sensitive to increases and that's why a certain A time needs to take a few days to test out before we do something again. Or else we'd never know what's going on

or teeth hehe...no amount of tweaking can tweak teeth away

[jackman]

Honestly Sarah, I don't have a clue if DS prefers shorter A times as the day progresses. I thought I knew him, but then he got sick and everything went out the window. We haven't had a STTN that wasn't a one off for nearly a month or so. Then the EWs started again too.

If this helps, our set naps were:
9:20/9:30am (1.5hrs)
2:30pm (1-1.5hrs)
6:30/6:40pm Bed
with a wake up of 6:10/6:40am

[Jiinx]

ok let me just go through your thread again and have a think..

will be back tonight.

[Jiinx]

Hi again,
 I went through your thread. I really want to figure this out. Last time things settled down you realized it was teeth. I'm hoping that these are teeth! However, I don't think it's only just teeth.

What could be happening, is he starts the day fine..he gets a good nap, but his second A time could be too little and he may be getting OT just bc the last A time may be too long. Let's start to push his day out. I suggest early bedtime if you're worried about OT. If he starts the day early, that's fine. We can still give him a 3.5 hour A time. He's 11 months now and he should be quite fine with A times of 3.5-4 hours.

So may I suggest, 1st A time is 3.5, 2nd A time 3.75 ..and if you cut the last nap, the last A can be 3 hours.

I'm not sure if this is going to work..but I feel like we're just going in circles and we need to at least TRY something else. And of course, medicate before naps and BT to rule out teeth...