Newbie needs help/clarification

[ole]

So I have always used EAS in the day with both kids (ex. in the day I dont feed to sleep but do before bed and havent been strict with timing of A and S times) Both kids are terrible sleepers. ODS is almost 3 (thats another post) and YDS is 7 months. STTN once at maybe 3 months or so.  So while there might be tons of milestones and teething stuff going on, there is surely AP at fault.

Background/EAS schedule:
Ds is 7 months, was BF now takes formula. Still at 6 months he was still eating two 5 ounce bottles and I and the ped said he should not eat that much so we decreased the amount in the bottles to 4, to 3 and now last night to 2 ounces. Now when he took those  5 ounce bottles, he would go right back to bed. Now since we lowered them to 3 and 2 he wakes more, is up longer.  I am not thinking he is hungry because 1)he doesnt suck down those bottles in the night and 2) he wakes for the day and doesnt whine for food for a while.

Wake 630, 6 ounce bottle
E 800 1/4 cereal with 4 ounces formula, 3 ounce fruit and drinks 4 ounces (this is at daycare so should she put that much formula in his cereal?)
A
S 945-1115 or 1145 (depends)
E 12/1230 veg and fruit and 4 ounces
A
S depends on morning nap, but 130-330 or 2-4
E 500
THEN......
He habitually wakes to eat at 1am and 5am (so I was thinking habit vs hunger and hunger because I created him to be hungry at that time) but we sometimes can skip that 5 am feed BUT he is up for 1-1.5 hrs most nights now since we do not feed him. When we first started out cutting feeds, we did the paci in the chair and he would take and fall asleep but wake as soon as I laid him down. Am I dealing with he doesnt know how to put himself back to sleep on his own? How can I do it? Help. Husband would do CIO if I let him but understands thats not happening.
 


My questions are is he eating too much or too little and that is affecting sleep? Am I doing the right thing by weaning the ON feeds? What do I do about the arching when I do PU/PD. Book says its a sign of DS being tired (I agree, his eyes are closed and he cries) and I should put him down if he does it so I do and he just flops all over, sometimes rolling onto back, curling his body, getting up on all fours and rocking-hitting his head on the side so I constantly reposition him to the center of the crib.
Should I add more solids? I cant add more formula (should I be reducing even?) He gets about 27-30 ounces of formula plus food (see above) Sometimes he gets calm by the patting ( I dont shh cuz that disturbs him) and think its working and he gets fired up again. Ugh. Am I missing something? Doing it wrong? I have tried medicating for teeth with tylenol or Hylands before but did not notice a difference.

THANKS for reading this far.

[deckchariot]

I'm not sure I understand when he's getting formula during the day....at 6 mos, he should still be having 4 milk feeds during the day (totaling 26-32 oz) - roughly upon wake up in the am, after the first nap, after the 2nd nap, and at bedtime.  A 4oz bottle seems low to me for any given feed - and I suspect he's been making up for that at night.  My dd was ebf, but we did a bottle of ebm for a df, and at 6 mos, she was taking 6oz there, so I would assume she was getting roughly the same at her other feeds.  4oz of formula mixed with cereal seems like a lot - it seems like that would make the cereal really, really watery, but maybe not?  And I wouldn't do a bottle there.  Here's a link that gives some sample routines for mixing solids and milk feeds (obviously, you'd adjust the times for your EASY), but the basic idea is that milk feeds are primary, and solid feeds happen about 1 hr after a milk feed:  http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=68458.0  So based on your routine, I'd tweak some of the feedings - so milk feeds at 6:30, 11;45, 3:30/4, and bedtime.  Then I would do solids at 7:30/8 (like you are), 12:30ish and 5.

Another thing I"m not clear on - when does he go to bed?  If he's up by 6:30, I'd be aiming to have him in bed by 6:30 as well (most bubs are still working best on a 12 hr day/night). 

In regards to weaning the overnight feeds, I know some moms who water down the bottles at night - most bubs will not keep waking to take a bottle of watered down formula.  And then they are replacing that formula in the daytime feeds.  So when you cut the night feeds - did you add those oz to his day feeds?

So when he wakes at night and you used to feed him - are you not giving him a bottle at all now?  Does he wake and immediately begin crying?  Are you then still doing the rock with the paci?  That definitely sounds like it could be a prop.  Here's a link with the age adaptations for pu/pd: http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=69177.0  Note that for 6-8 mos, it says not to pick them up unless they are reaching for you.  So if his eyes are closed, I'm guessing he's not reaching for you to pick him up, so in that case, you would leave him in the crib, say your sleep phrase and you can keep your hand on him to keep him calm.

hth - let me know if it doesn't make sense...I'm a bit sleep deprived myself atm
michelle

[*Liz*]

I agree with Michelle - at 6 mths *most* FF babies are having 4 6-8oz bottles during the day and some might still have one night fedd (or a dream feed).

I think your LO is not having enough milk during the day so is hungry at night still - not starving like a younger baby is - but just hungry enough to not be able to settle easily.

The feeding routine Michelle suggested sounds the same as what I would say as well.

There likely is an element of habit in there as well though  .

[ole]

I was not clear. He definitely gets enough formula. He is getting the 3 milk bottles of 6 ounces. At around 630 (or even 530 if he wakes, we feed him then he will go back down for a bit).  Daycare is who gives 4 ounce to drink and 4 in cereal (I will tell her to cut that down)in the morning and then the lunch time solids is just 2 boxes of food and 4 ounces, no cereal so no 4 ounces added to it. Sometimes he will eat a 6 ounce bottle at daycare, time varies. I have not added a dinner so I can give him the formula he needs so the 5pm eating is a 6 ounce bottle, with a 6 ounce bottle before bed. So he is getting 8 ounces total with meals (12 if you count in the cereal).  On the weekends I do  not do it this way. He eats a bottle roughly at 3am (2 ounces we have it down to) and yes we added ounces to the day. Today its was 7am, will feed at wake 1130, probably 4ish and bedtime.
His wake time is earlier too. Thats the problem. It was 730-8pm to 7a or 730a and 3-4 hr total naps (usually closer to 4 hrs). Lately its 730-630ish which I didnt think was all that bad (if he stayed asleep the whole night

So you all think that 24-30 ounces plus 1/4 cup cereal, and 6ish ounces of veg/fruit is too much? He just spits up so dang much. DH thinks we feed him too much. Its hard to think I should be feeding him an hour after a bottle when he has just spit up a few times before that.
Deckchariot I will check out the examples of food/formula.  I do not rock with paci in the night to replace feeds. DH just stays with him and pats. and I PUPD or just PD to reposition.
Okay, so no PU as part of the PU/PD. Makes sense as he does the hair pulling, arching when I do PU. Last night he woke every hour after 1130 but his waking was much different than normal. No up on all fours or reaching. Just making noise, crying out, seemed maybe uncomfortable?? Like he wanted to stay asleep but was not comfortable. I never had to pick him up. I left him to settle himself half the time and the other half the cries were stronger and I put my hand on his back and he calmed down. But up again an hour later.

[deckchariot]

Thanks for clarifying on the formula....sorry I was confused.  Has he always thrown up after bottles?  Is it possible he has reflux or some type of allergy?  It's really not normal for bubs (especially at his age) to throw up a lot after eating.  I'd be concerned that something else is going on there.

His behavior last night also sounds like maybe he might be in pain too - not able to get comfortable.  I know it's hard when he's up so many times, but if he's in pain, I'd take care of that first before attempting any pd.  It sounds like you do have a good plan for settleing him (just using pd, with your hand on his back), but if he's got some tummy issues or something else going on, we need to look at that first.

[ole]

Yep, now I may take a break from sleep "training", especially since I just started. He needed us on holding him or standing next to his crib (still cried the whole time) for at least two hours then finally fell asleep. We tried Hylands teeth tabs and then tylenol. Will get some motrin to try tonite. Hoping its not an ear infection. But his cheeks are all red so maybe another sign he is teething. He doesnt have any so its time.

[deckchariot]

it could definitely be teething.  We found that motrin 30 min before sleeps helped.  What about the throwing up after eating?  Has that always been the pattern?  Does he have reflux by any chance?

[ole]

I called the dr on the spitting up and she thought too it was from all his crawling, jumping. I dont know why his BMs would improve so much (they look like normal poops now I was so excited) but still be allergic?? I dunno. I suppose I will never know since I switched when he was just starting the crawling. Daycare thinks its pretty normal the amount he spits up (of course not all babies so but she has certainly had ones that spit up like he does)

[deckchariot]

hmmm.....I don't know, it just sounded a bit odd to me, I'd keep an eye on it and see if there seems to be some connection between the amount/frequency of throwing up and the sleep issues.