2-3 times a NW 7 mnth old - I feel we are at a new "low"point

[EloysH]

Hey All,

I had a thread going since 5 months old, but thought that since we are two months down the track with slightly different circumstances, and more stressed than ever, I better start fresh.  I can't take this NW'ing for much longer, I have permanent dark circles under my eyes, and permanent short temper, this is ridiculous!!!

DS2 has been on solids since 6 months, eats 12 foods (due to food intlolerances) and eats protein twice a day.  I feel that his Nw'ing is assocation related.  I definantly think he needs one feed, but not anymore than that.

   Some nights all the feeds are just snacks, some nights one feed is large and the rest snacks.    He has been also having long NW'ings every 3 days or so sometimes around 4-5 am.  this is really bugging me and was relsoved after we dropped the third cat npa and went to 2 naps, but now is back again.

  He also NW's for at least an hour if I try to meddle with the feed, ie reduce the amount of minutes and take him off the boob. I have had a few "one off attempts" to do this in the last few weeks and  he gets really unsettled and cries and cries (more than mantra crying) demanding to be re-fed, and won't settle for me or DH until he gets back on the boob.  So he is quite stubborn about his feeding at night situation.

The problem is that during the day, I feed him about 5 mins before bed, then pop him in the cot. He's falling asleep peacefully in the cot, but only because he's had his windown with a feed.   I've really stuffed this up I think.   I as doing it whilst he was establishing on solids to prevent him wakign early from his naps from hunger.  Now I know hunger is not an issue, I haven't pulled these feeds back from his nap time. 

Today I fed him 10 mins before sleep and so by sleep time he kciked off for 40 mins, very very angry crying and if I put him back in the cot he would break out a new into a fresh angry fit, this went on for 40 mins and I gave in and fed him where he promptly went to sleep!   He is swaddled tighly for bed BTW.  He really needs the swaddle to settle.

Help!  I need a plan!  Do I choose a night feed and send DH to resettle without feeding?

Routine:
wake: 6am
Feed: 7am
Solids 7:30am

Sleep 9:15am  (small top up before bed)
Wake 10:45am or 11:15  (1.5 - 2 hours nap)
Feed: 12:00pm
Solids: 1:00pm

Sleep: approx 2pm (approx 1.5 hours) (small top up before bed)
Wake: 3:30pm
Feed: 4:00pm
Solids: 5:00pm
Feed: 7:00pm
Bed:7:00pm
  NW approx 10-11pm - feed  (If I take him off the bobo early he will be awake crying alot on and off pretty angry)
    NW approx 2-3am - feed  (every 2nd day he skips this feed)
    NW apporox 4:30am- 5am - feed and often up for a long time playing afterwards

thanks for reading

[anna*]

((((hugs)))) I totally sympathise, Stan was still feeding 3-4 times a night at 9 months before I had to get tough with him!

I think you've got to put some space between those top ups and sleep. Maybe start by just shifting your wind-down around so that BF comes earlier in the sequence of things.

Then I'd also get DH to settle him without feeding at that 2-3am waking, since he's not always feeding at that time anyway.

[*Liz*]

((hugs)) Eloise - I can only imagine how tired you are with all of this - I can see myself ending up in a very similar position though as some babies really do seem to need a full tummy to nap well.

What are you actually doing though? Are you feeding swaddled and then putting down almost asleep, or are you finished the feed with an awake baby then doing a WD?

Has he found his thumb at all (I know he doesn't have a paci?) Does he suck it during the day at all? I'm just wondering if at this age you might be best to free an arm for him so that he can find a way to self settle. I know LOADS of you would disagree with me on this but I find it hard to imagine how a baby can really self soothe tightly swaddled without a paci. Obviously a real issue if you also have a jolty baby, and partly I think why Megan has ended up a tummy sleeper. Jacob used to rub a cloth over his face to self soothe, and Megan either sucks her thumb or rubs her face into the mattress.

Routine wise how long has that final A been 3.5hrs?

[sherry lynn]

marking

[huntersmummyinoz]

m@rking

[EloysH]

thanks lovely ladies  for your replies. 

Anna: How does DH resettle him though?  Does he hold him to sleep (since he is without a feed and its hard enough) or does he have to fall asleep on his own with the PU/PD?


Last two nights he was NW at 11pm chatting then escalating into crying so I have fed him.  He hasn't gone back to sleep but has fussed and fussed.  We've gone in,  and then he's lost the plot when he leave, but if he pick him up he wants to lay awake in our arms! As if he are going to be doing that! I've even tried to feed again but he hasn't been hungry!    So now its 12:30pm, hes been up since 11pm.  Same as last night. I tihnk he's settling now due to being really over it and probably tired.

Its coinciding with him not wanting to be laid down in the day, demanding more and more to be picked up, I wonder if its SA? He won't really play on his own anymore, and gets so cranky with demanding crying If so how do I fix it?  I feel so confused, why don't the feeds put him back to sleep?

Liz: The last A time is anywhere from 2 hours to 3.5 hours. Any longer and I will do a cat nap.  Like yesterday afternoon, we had to do a catnap.

The swaddle is an aussie swaddle, so he can have his fists near his face and suck them if he wants, but he doesn't.

At the moment for naps I wrap him on one layer, feed him in his room on the chair, take him to cot and wrap him in the second layerquickly whist he is sleepy, sing a short song with a cuddle and pop into cot.    He is usually very verty drowsy.  If he falls alseep on the boob (often at bedtime) I just wrap him quickly and pop him straight in the cot.

[*Liz*]

Long NWings often confuse me. For ages I thought they were due to being UT at bedtime or too much daytime sleep, but Megan has done it a few nights when neither has been the case at all so I think there is sometimes a developmental aspect to it  .

That does sound like a BFing prop to me  . If he really is almost asleep before he goes in then the oxytocin in the BM is what is keeping him dopey while you quickly wrap. I would say try slowly increaing the time from the feed but I find that if M falls asleep on the boob that if I wake her completely I lose the sleep completely. So what I have started to do is feed her downstairs as I know she won't fall asleep there but will in her nursing chair in a nice quiet room. Then I take her up - do WD and put her down sleepy or fully awake if she is faffing about. I then only go back to her if she is really crying or not settling.

I wonder if that 3rd nap is backfiring on you now? There does come a time where you are better off without it and just do an early bedtime instead.

I do think you are going to have to remove that boob prop to improve the night sleep really - plus finish off the final stages or getting rid of that CN. I will confess that I have pretty much ditched it with M now as I would rather deal with an OT EW than deal with multiple UT NWings. I guess it depends what the individual LOs OT night pattern is though.

[EloysH]

thanks Liz,  the cat nap is gone, actually, that was just a one off because everything went bust yesterday.  ANyway he had good day sleep today but not asleep with this NW till 1am!!!  that's two hours 

[Buntybear]

Hello my dear 

You are going through such a tough time right now  . I am no good with advice on NWs seeing as we are struggling with them too  . Only things that jump out are have you tried a DF? Maybe at 10.30 before he wakes at 11? With Olly I would find that if I tried to cut a feed short he would not settle which says to me he is hungry. If he takes a good feed and still will not settle then I would say the NW is something else.

Also, your A times do look on the long side for 7 months. We only just went from 3hr15m on the 1st A time this week. Though I guess he is getting good naps so that must be OK?? 

Maybe as he is getting so many BFs during the day he is not getting full on them properly? ie in the am he is getting feeds at 7, 7.30 and 9.15 - he may then not be hungry enough for another good BF at 12??

Just a couple of thoughts - HTH.

xxx

[anna*]

I agree with Liz, I think you need to get rid of the BF prop before nights improve. Once he can fall asleep without the boob, then it'll be possible for DH to settle him at one of those NWs - I wouldn't send in DH to do PUPD if he's not sleeping independently yet.

[EloysH]

thanks, sigh, it seems too hard at the moment      Last night we were both up from 11pm - 1:40am he was beside himself with tiredness.  This is just awful. I am soo wrecked today.

 Yesterday for first sleep I tried to put him down with cutting him off to a short minute or two on the breast, he cried angrily for 40 mins and Ds1 couldn;t handle it I was on my own at home,  DS1 was so emotional and worried about K.  I gave up after 40 mins a re -feed him.  Just feeling very low about all this.
 He was so tired yesterday his A times were 2 hrs 45 and 2 hours 45 again he was yawning and carrying on by 1.5 hours though of awake time.   I am shuddering at what today will bring, just about to get him out of his cot!

So we will try something on Saturday something when DH is here...maybe feed him in another room 10 mins before sleep then put him down without any breast?  I hope its not too mean,  I know he will loose the plot.

[*Liz*]

So we will try something on Saturday something when DH is here...maybe feed him in another room 10 mins before sleep then put him down without any breast?  I hope its not too mean,  I know he will loose the plot.

I think that is what you are going to have to do - but totally understand how hard it will be for you.

I'm going to have a think and see if I can think of anyone who has got proper BTDT experience of breaking a feed to sleep prop as perhaps they can offer a bit more and explain what it will be like.

((hugs)) Eloise - I really hope today (or tomorrow for me as I haven't gone to bed yet!) isn't as bad as you are expecting.

[EloysH]

thanks Liz, you are so kind  

Something else is dawning on me.  For the last 3 days I have been doing a minor food challenge for his food intolerances.  Last night there was some mucus in his poo - he poo at 12pm.  This morning when I changed him it was FULL of green mucus, hardly any normal poo.  I think he may have failed the challenge and that explains some of the longer than usually NW'ing - maybe? He also hasn't been very settled i ntheday wanting to be held alot.  But that's probably normal   Anyway, will watch his symptoms now the challenge is finished and see if they improve.  Usually takes 24-72 hours to come good.    
Pretty guttered if it is a fail, for the implications.  

[sherry lynn]

*huge huge hugs*
We did have a feed to sleep prop, but it was so short lived (after vacation) that it wasn't that hard to break. I just stopped feeding before nap. And did pu/pd.
I am also getting a long night waking. Mine is after the 4am feed. So I think I need to tackle that feed.
I really hope it wasn't a failed challenge   But, that would explain a lot. You are also dealing with teething as well, right?

[Kruliczyca]

Jus marking this thread as I expect similar issues with my DS soon :-/

Hugs to you, Eloys. Hope it gets better soon.