23 months - sleep refusal at night

[NadeneR]

Hi all

It's been such a long time since I've been here - Talia has been a total CHAMP as far as pretty much everything goes, until a month ago. She has always fallen asleep on top of me or cradled in my arms (we never did manage the independent sleep thing). She's usually falls asleep very quickly, so I've never had too much of a problem with it. The sleep refusal started a few days before I went in for surgery. Since I knew I wouldn't be able to have her on top of me after the surgery, I started lying down next to her on the bed in her room - she's till in her camper cot (can't quite remember, but it was around this time that she got difficult to settle). After the surgery I was not allowed to pick her up for a few days, but would lie with her, snuggle with her on the bed / couch so that she would still get lots of contact with me.

She just WILL NOT close her eyes, lies staring at me, falls asleep 6 times, but pops the eyes wide open and then it's another hour from there. If I leave, she either cries or starts playing and gets herself so OT that it takes days to recover from it. I'm so done fighting this fight!

Here's a brief run-down of her routine:

7:30 / 7:45 - Awake (morning A time about 5 - 5.5 hrs)

12:30 / 1:00 - nap (2hrs - not sure if this is too long, but is so exhausted from previous night being awake so long that if I don't wake her, she'll sleep for 2.5 - 3hrs)

2:00 / 3:00 awake

7:30 - 8:00 - supposed to sleep, BUT WON'T (urggghhhhh)

Not sure if our routine needs tweaking, if A times are too short, or if something else is up.

Does anyone have any ides? Thought it may be the 2yr molars, had 2 - 3 BAD nappies over the last month or so, but no signs of teeth, no signs of pain, 1 night waking in the last 3 months, so not sure what to put this down to. Any ideas, tips or similar experiences out there?

Thanks
Nadene

[NadeneR]

Sorry, meant to say 2:30 / 3:00 awake from afternoon nap, followed by (planned) 5 - 5.5 hours A, but this usually goes to 6 or 7 hours sometimes.

[babybarr]

I think you maybe need to get tough

Are you fully recovered from your surgery?  Were you away overnight or anything?  Just wondered if she is feeling a bit wary of you "disappearing" again.  Is she clingy during the day?

Have you tried an earlier bedtime - only ask cos if she's OT then maybe that's why she's taking a while to settle.

[NadeneR]

DH would agree with you on the getting tough part. I'm mostly doing ok after the surgery, just limited in terms of a few things that I can't do yet. I had to be at the hospital at 6:15 am (before she woke up), was in day clinic, so got home at about 9pm (after she was in bed. Yes, she is pretty clingy. I tried a few days ago puttong her down at 4hrs A time and she was asleep by 4.5 hrs (pretty quick). Thought I had the golden recipe there, but it hasn't worked a single night since, so have gone back to 5ish hrs. Maybe should try cutting that A time back again and see what happens.

What do you suggest about nap length? 1.5 / 2 hrs / longer?

[babybarr]

I would def not let her sleep more than 2hrs to try and save her sleep for night - esp. as she has been a good sleeper.  I wonder if you need to formulate a plan for settling at bedtime.  Perhaps your DH could do it?  Have you ever tried wiwo?

[NadeneR]

Thanks for your response!!! So appreciated!

I was starting to wonder if 2hrs wasn't perhaps too long. But maybe I should start by cutting back her afternoon A time, if that doesn't work, I'll try shortening her nap to 1h45 min, then 1h30 min.

Wiwo has worked for us, but it took a long time. On the nights that she cries when I leave, she will cry for hours and hours. I don't either have the sticking power for it, I either just want to get her to sleep at all costs or I start to get angry, which she picks up and we have much worse crying when I leave. Wiwo would probably not be the answer for the nights she decides to entertain herself in her cot (sings and talks like she's doing it to win 1st place - lol). I guess the control freak in me wants to be there to make sure she falls asleep and that I know what time she has fallen asleep. It's a terreible characteristic DH will be with her for 10 minutes after she's finished her bottle, put her down and then sees his responsibility as over, so it rests on me eventually anyway. I could try getting him to help again. It's just so tiring - I very often spend over 2 hours trying to get her to sleep, which is sometimes only around 10ish. That's late!!! And leaves nothing of my night for me

[~*Nicole*~]

I'd say later nap! We had to move to 6 hours pre-nap a bit younger than your DD is. So a wake up at 7:30 and we'd have to plan for a 1:30 nap...putting her down maybe 10-15 mins. prior so she didn't get OT and was sleeping around 1:30.  Then cap at 2 hours max to preserve some sort of normal bedtime.....If bedtime gets too late, then try 1:00 nap OR cutting to 1.5 hours max. We also had to get "tough" around this age as she would try stalling for longer and longer. And well now she has been moved to a bed and that is a whole other fiasco!!!!!!!!!!!!

[NadeneR]

Hi Nicole

Thanks for your reply!!!

We mostly do 5.5 hrs pre-nap, by which time she is pretty tired and goes down quite easily. Maybe then the best would be to cut the nap to 1.5 hrs. What post-nap A time should I be aiming for? I'm guessing that by bedtime she is already OT. Today was MUCH better, this is what it looked like:

8:10 awake (almost 6hrs A)

2:00 nap (2:10 min)

4:10 awake

8:40 w/d, bottle and asleep by 9:05, so just under half an hour.

Hey, looking at this, maybe 6hrs pre-nap is a good idea for her! (Amazing what you see when you write it down and re-read it). We had DS's school concert tonight as well and even while we were there I saw that she was already pretty tired and not coping too well. So maybe I can do 4.5hrs post-nap as opposed to the 5 I did tonight and see how that goes. What do you think?

Since I had my surgery, I've been leaving her in her "big bed" for naps as I wasn't able to lift her to get her into her cot (DH helped at night), and she is so happy on the big bed. I'm hoping that this will make our transition to the big bed easier as she would already have had plenty of "practise" at it. When is a good time to make the transition?

[~*Nicole*~]

If she does well with 5.5 hours, then probably near 5 after nap before bed would be alright. If she does 6 hours pre-nap, I'd try more like 4 to 4.5 hours after nap and before bed. It's about the same total awake hours if you look at it that way.

[NadeneR]

Thaks Nicole, I'm so grateful for the help. I'm going to play around within these times for the next few days and see what works best for her. I'll keep you posted!

[NadeneR]

Tonight was not pretty! We did 6 hrs A pre-nap, 2 hour nap and aimed for 4.5 hrs post-nap. I took her to the room at 4hrs (giving her enough time to wind down and have her bottle), she was very sleepy and actually dozed off several times, but eyes keep popping open. In a soft, gentle voice I say "close your eyes and dudu baby" and she does it, nods off again and eventually she ends up with the "stare" and doesn't even attempt to close her eyes anymore. That's when I know that she's OT already. It's now going on 5.5 hrs, she's still awake and my sense of humour has left the building.

[~*Nicole*~]

So maybe the 6 hours pre-nap is too much for her. Although, even still, after a 2 hour nap 4 hours shouldn't have been too long....any chance she's teething or unwell?

[NadeneR]

I took her to her room at 4 hrs with the hope that she'd be asleep by 4.5 hrs. I'm guessing that maybe 2 days in a row of 6hrs was maybe a bit much for her and to rather alternate between 5.5 and 6 hour days will help her to adjust more gradually? What do you think?

We had a BAD, yucky nappy this morning (had a few of those over the past month), yet still no signs of teeth, but I'm guessing that those 2 year molars should start cutting soon, at least within the next month or 2. Maybe it is that, but I can't tell for sure.

[babybarr]

What happens when she goes down for her nap?  Do you sit with her then?  Does she settle quickly?

[NadeneR]

I lie next to her until she's asleep. She usually goes down in under 10 minutes. Today she was virtually asleep by the time her head hit the pillow and I was out of the room in under 5 minutes. It's only the nights I struggle with! What's bothering me is that by taking so long to fall asleep at night, she's shortening her nights, sometimes only doing 9-10 hrs, where she usually does 11-12.5, which is causing her to take longer naps to catch up on sleep, then I wake her from her nap to try and preserve her night sleep, have a hard time getting her to fall asleep at night and we repeat the cycle again. I'm just struggling to crack this.