Playgroup woes --- long, and quite petty... but could use opinions

[Mashi]

This feels so trivial to me, but it eats at me a couple of days a week and I don't know what to do...

One of the playgroups we started going to this autumn is at what I can best call an outdoor play place.  It is a farm type thing, with fenced goats, free roaming chickens (may be they are or hens, or roosters, I have no idea the difference ), a sandpit, a wooden pirate ship climbing frame, a bunny/guinea pig hutch, a small artificial pond with wooden rafts, and a very large trampoline.  It's really good and DS absolutely LOVES the idea of the place. He is mad over goats and would feed them for hours, he loves nothing more than to run and chase birds, and apparently chickens qualify (anything that will run away in circles while he runs after them, pigeons are best!), and this trampoline is a mad obsession. So it is ideal. 

One of my friends goes, and there I have met two other women there who speak English; due to other commitments this is the only day of the week when I can see these woman and their kids.  One of them is an American/Canadian family and so fluent in English, one boy a bit younger than DS and one a bit older.

So the first few weeks I thought this place was amazing and looked forward to going every Tuesday. But I have not gone back in ages and can't decide what to do.  The issues are minor but a big deal to me....most weeks we are not allowed to feed the goats. No idea why - the playgroup leader just says "today we are not allowed to feed the goats" and my good friend who is fluent in German has not been able to get an explanation or answer from her so it's not a language barrier for me.  I have been told (three times now, the third time it was not a nice "telling") that DS is not allowed to chase the chickens.  I guess I understand - but the reason given is not for the safety/protection/well being of the chickens but because one of the chickens is a bit mean and might turn on DS and attack him.  I kinda feel that knowing that, if I choose to let him take the risk, it should be my choice, no?  We are sometimes allowed to go into the goat pen and wander in the fields with the goats, pet them, etc, but other times not - it is at the whim of the group leader.  Ok, that's fine, but we are there for 2 hours and she will randomly open the door and if you don't get inside *right then* then you can't go in at all, and are stuck watching the other kids inside the goat pen...when in there she says "ok time to get out" and gets angry if we all don't go *right then* (so a toddler who is in the middle of petting a goat has to be grabbed and dragged out the door, iyswim).  We get to go to the hen house and collect the eggs they have laid but she chooses certain kids to go into the hutch and pick the eggs (it's a small space not room for 5 kids) but she lets a couple of LOs in to collect 15 eggs while the other kids have to watch and hope for next week....was an issue twice with my DS and now he won't even go over to watch the eggs get collected (which bothers her because when she annoucnes egg collecting time he should follow) and  I have seen some LOs go away in tears. Like, can each child not get in, find one egg, put it in the basket and then get out and let another child go in and look for one??

My DS really just wants to jump on the trampoline (seeing as he can not feed the goats, collect the eggs or chase the chickens...) and fortunately this is okay.  When we arrive e he sits down and takes off his own socks and shoes and goes right to it. But after 20 minutes or so the leader starts song time and insists that he get down and join her.  My DS hates song time on the best of days but hers is so utterly boring and pathetic that it makes me cringe.  So I have to get onto the trampoline, drag him off screaming and crying, battle him to get shoes and socks on with a circle of 15 mothers and toddlers watching me (she will not start song time until we are all there - I feel tears in my eyes as I type with remembering how embarassed and angry I have been with a group of 15 women standing staring at me and mumbling to each other while I drag my screaming child off of a trampoline and pin him down to put his shoes on  )  and then force him to stand around for 15 minutes of song time when all he can see are chickens, goats, bobby cars, sandboxes, and a trampoline.  If he wanders off to go to the sandbox during song time, she makes me bring him back because other kids might see him and want to go to it as well. The thing is, we do song time RIGHT in the middle of all of this stuff, outside, standing on the gravel and there is no way to stop him from wandering, kwim?  Or am I unreasonable -- should my 2yo be able to ignore these temptations and stand there singing songs (keep in mind neither he nor I understand the words!)

Any of you who read my gummy bear story on Anne's thread about feeding other people's kids, that is at this playgroup, too. 

So I guess my problem is that there are a lot of what I feel, are unreasonable and difficult rules at this playgroup - my own way of facing situations with DS is sort of the attitude that if there are going to be arbitrary rules about when he can and can't use the trampoline, then don't put a trampoline in front of him; if he can go into the pen to pet the goats then he can, not he arbitrarily can or can't. And I am not sure if this is me being the kind of parent who does not want to say no to their child, who thinks that her child is "too good" to follow rules, rules are meant for other kids but not mine, etc.  Next year (early August) he will start kindergarten/preschool at 3yo and there will be rules - but in my mind they will be more sensical than these ones - rules designed to protect not prevent if that makes sense?  I dunno. 

So I don't want to stop going to playgroup because I think the rules are stupid if the better way of thinking is that I need to take him to these kinds of groups MORE often because he needs to get used to rules and putting a reign on his spiritedness. That he needs to learn to "obey" rather than "explore" a his leisure.  Or am I right that these rules are silly and are not "healthy" ones that are really helping a 2yo to put sense to the world? 

The other side of the coin is that there is NOTHING else for me to do with him on a Tuesday and we are at home pulling each other's hair out. If I don't go then we are not really doing anything in place of it, kwim?  It leaves us with only one other "activity" in the week with friends/other toddlers for certain. I take him swimming, to soft play, museums, etc but only rarely am I able to convince friends come along with us (too far to travel, to expensive to get in, some do language classes, etc) so without this playgroup it cuts a big dent in our social life.  It also means that the 2 other women who I know and like, whose children I like and think my DS would like, I won't get to know.  And my social circle is limited here as it is! I think DS needs friends, interaction with kids, exposure to more situations than he currently gets and so on.  So taking him from this one is hard to do...

What a long ramble...I realise it is such a petty issue when there are far more serious things to deal with in life but for such a petty issue it has been nagging at me for over a month now and Monday nights I lose a lot of sleep over whether or not we will go 

[Lolly]

Is this place open to the public at other times? Could you take him at another time where he can trampoline and chase chickens to his heart's content?

I think the play leader has no idea of what 2 yo spirited boys are about to be honest. Ok so she can encourage everyone to join in but you really can't expect everyone to join when there are other way more interesting things to do. I'm sure the language barrier isn't helping so is there anyway you can get together with the lady who is able to translate and ask if things could be changed around so you finish with song time for example? Maybe also it needs to be pointed out that everyone needs a turn at collecting eggs (my DS would LOVE to do this ). With the goat pen - I would be lifting him over the fence if she won't open the gate - but that's just me Are there people who own the farm that you could ask about feeding the goats when you are there?

FWIW I don't think you are being unreasonable at all, why should they be forced to do something they aren't interested in when there are other things to do. Surely it's a lot less disruptive for the group to let those who want to, join in and the rest do their thing. Does this leader have a few control issues

Laura

[**Clare**]

Its funny Mashi... I had tears in my eyes reading this. I'm not usually this sensitive but things like this break my heart, I work with children and we have been on trips to a place like this and I've taken my own children there. I can't even begin to tell you how much Harvey likes it! Esp the feeding goats, collecting eggs and feeding the chickens!! And he is ALWAYS allowed to do this and every child gets a turn if they want one. There's no waiting around for turns either. The thing that upsets me most is that the rules are not consistent, if I'm honest she just sounds like a total control freak!!! If you went there on the first day and the rule was no children in the goat pen and that remained it would be fine. The fact that sometimes they are and sometimes they are not is quite frankly ridiculous!!!!! And I can't stand the whole structured thing at such a young age. I go to a group and DS never wants to have snack, he'd much rather carry on playing and he's allowed to do this. Some pre schools have a rolling snack, so its available all the time and children can choose when they want to have it, rather than stopping them mid flow. I have so much more to say but I'm on my phone and can't actually read back what I'm writing so this is probably already enough of a ramble!! Hugs though. I'd find this incredibly tough and wouldn't be taking DS back either! Xx

[MLK]

Playgroup leader sounds like a control freak. maybe it's a cultural "teach them to follow rules at a young age" thing? Is there any other time you can go - eg with the friends you have met?

[gogomama]

Thats a really tough one. I can see why you want to go and on the other hand, having him "follow the rules" with all of the tempting fun things to do around is almost like torture for him. The change the rules daily is what would drive me the most crazy! Do any of the other mom's feel the same way? Perhaps you all could speak to the leader and ask if there is any way that the routine could be changed or at least spelled out to where it is consistent. Surely your DS can't be the only one saddened not to be able to collect an egg or to be shut out of the goat pen. And seriously who does song time right in the middle...I agree with pp..sounds like she has no idea what its like having a spirited 2 yr old!

[Mashi]

Thanks ladies.  Yes Clare I have had tears over it, too.  Which to me sounds so silly - it's playgroup for crying out loud!!!  

Laura, it is a public place and is open certain days and times for anyone to go in.  However, none of them are times that "work" for us - in the past year we have managed once, as the hours are weekdays only 2pm - 6pm.  So DS sleeps until 3, it takes us 30 minutes to get out of the house (wake up time, nappy, clothes, etc) and then it is about 30 minutes to get there, so the earliest we would be there is about 4pm, to play for an hour and then manage to get home at 530, we still need to make tea and eat...it really makes it difficult.  At the end of this month winter hours will start, I think it closes at 5pm.  So yes, we CAN go but it's really hard and not worth it  - plus a LOT of the going is not just the activities there but the other children and parents, kwim?  It is not just missing the animals and trampoline but the socialising....this is why I am so torn.

Yes I think you are right about this leader having control issues and not understanding 2yo boys and especially spirited kids!!  That is exactly how DH and I have summed it up when talking about it! What breaks my heart and makes me soo sooo sad is that my DS is spirited but his manner is such a "love life" type spirit...he just wants to run and jump and stamp in puddles and thinks that it is so much fun to chase birds and flap his arms while he runs down the street. He wants to be on the trampoline because jumping is FUN and makes us laugh, he wants ALL the kids to get on the trampoline and laugh with him!  

So do you think it is negative enough to lose the benefit of the social aspect of it?  Honestly I well up with tears thinking of how my DS is portrayed as such a "bad kid" there, I can tell by her "aura" she gives off, and I don't want him to feel that way....I went late a couple of times so we would get there after songs (oh, they are at start and end, so can't suggest they get moved to the end, and they are always the same songs at all playgroups, lol! just some leaders are better at them, kwim?)  but it was getting silly -- group is from 930 - 1130, so i was getting there at 10ish and she was just starting songs - if we leave at 11ish to avoid this same hassle at the end, it seems like a waste of the 30 minute trek there for only an hour, kwim?

[15milner]

Not got time for a long reply.

But Matthew was attacked by a chicken.  He was following it and the chicken jumped up at him / flew at him - it was an evil chicken , Matthew walked away but the bird followed him!!!!  It gave Matthew such a fright.  He was 3. 

Alex

[linfran]

Sounds like less of a playgroup and more of a bootcamp!

If the rules are inconsistent, would it be possible to speak to the leader very sweetly and ak her to please explain EXACTLYwhat the rules are - just explain you aren't sure when ds is allowed to do what and it would mean you could help him understand better so he wouldn't get so upset if he knew what the schedule was?  I realise the language/culture thing could be an issue but if it was possible for the question to be asked it might help tie the leader down to a definite set of rules.

[Mashi]

Well, there is not really anything I can do to change the playgroup - it is how it is and things work on a take it or leave it basis, unfortunately.

How do I weigh up the pros and cons: playgroup that squashes my DS's spirit and makes him seem like a naughty kid and me a horrible mom BUT we get to be with people, I have the chance to meet 2 more english speaking moms (one culturally more similar to me as well), DS gets to meet some new friends (one who will possibly be in his kindergarten class next year so making a familiar face). Or stay home with a grumpy mom because we only now get to be with others 1x per week and are bored with an extra day of nothing to do...that's not great for him either is it?  How do you choose?

[rach321]

Hugs  - that's a tough one and it's for very similar reasons that we don't go to "organised"  playgroups like tumble tots etc - my spirited monkey does simply not understand why he should stop climbing and having fun and sit down quietly in a circle and sing songs. Not sure sure what to suggest - seems you're damned if you do and damned if you don't! Hope you find a solution.

[Mortish]

There is no way in hell my 2 year old would stand there for 15 minutes singing songs in a circle...especially with all that around them to play on.....

She obviously has a set program that she thinks needs to be followed, but obviously hasn't got a clue about spirited little ones and age related play......

I've been in a situation similar to that, and you do feel like a total failure at parenting when that sort of thing happens and then you kick yourself because the rebel in me goes why the hell should we have to conform to dumb arse rules like that at their age....needless to say, I thought to hell with it and didn't go back:)

[MLK]

What if you went once every 2-4 weeks? Enough times to maybe get to know the other ex-pats well enough.

[emz1907]

Oh Mashi! I got so fustrated for you reading this, my boy sounds so similar to yours and this sounds the kind of place he would LOVE! But trying to structure a playgroup to such degrees IMO only spoils it for the kids. I get what you mean about teaching him to follow rules etc but for pitys sake he is 2yrs old, does she not understand that to him a big bright bouncy trampoline is much more interesting than standing still on the spot listening to her warble on?
Ive taken callum to playgroups and there may be a loose structure i.e. Snacks at a certain time, song at the end etc but no one is MADE to take part in these things. There will always always be at least one kid who won't want to do what everyone else is doing (and I seem to have that kid most of the time!). The egg collecting thing really struck with me I mean if there are 15 eggs and roughly 15 kids the maths doesn't take too long does it??

Its a really hard one to weigh up and I can totally see your position, if it were me personally I would be judging it purely on how much does your ds get out if it? If the time spent there is 70% unhappiness at not being able to do what he wants and 30% enjoyment then I would pull it. If though he gets a higher percentage of enjoyment despite these things then it would be worth it still (even if you have to put up with control freak leader!). Although if it causes you so much upset and worry even if you think ds is getting whatever % enjoyment then consider if it is really THAT important iykwim? Don't worry too much about him losing the opportunity to mix with other kids etc, if he's not enjoying the experience enough it's not worth the hassle!

[*Becky*]

How do I weigh up the pros and cons: playgroup that squashes my DS's spirit and makes him seem like a naughty kid and me a horrible mom BUT we get to be with people, I have the chance to meet 2 more english speaking moms (one culturally more similar to me as well), DS gets to meet some new friends (one who will possibly be in his kindergarten class next year so making a familiar face). Or stay home with a grumpy mom because we only now get to be with others 1x per week and are bored with an extra day of nothing to do...that's not great for him either is it?  How do you choose?

It is really tricky Mashi and we have had this problem on many occasions. I ended up leaving a music class that I really liked going to because Henry just wanted to do everything apart from sit and shake his tambourine or whatever we were doing and I could tell I was there more for me than him as I liked the mums. Another playgroup we go to I am not so keen on even though the people who run it are nice but there is not much there for me iykwim but DS loves it and actually that means I have grown to like it as he is happy and absorbed with the toys and it makes for a pleasant morning.
FWIW I think the lady does sound too controlling. We do Tumble Tots and Henry never wanted to sit and join in with the songs and stories during quiet time but the ladies were great and acknowledged this and said he did not have to so he just pottered about. Now one year on this is his favourite part of the morning and he loves sitting and listening.
I can see the point of not chasing the chickens, that is just a life lesson and I would not let DS do that either, however spirited he is, chasing animals is simply a no but stopping him from going on the trampoline and changing the rules when seeing the goats is just not something that a LO of this age can understand and it would stress me out too!

[Lolly]

How do the others that you go to meet feel about how it's organised, would they be willing to not go to the playgroup but meet somewhere else at the same time?

Laura

[*Becky*]

ts a really hard one to weigh up and I can totally see your position, if it were me personally I would be judging it purely on how much does your ds get out if it? If the time spent there is 70% unhappiness at not being able to do what he wants and 30% enjoyment then I would pull it. If though he gets a higher percentage of enjoyment despite these things then it would be worth it still (even if you have to put up with control freak leader!).

I agree with this 100%

[teilvnav]

I would stay, but only for a while, and maybe only every second/third week. As much as it sucks, I would do it. In different circumstances, of course I would just stop going. But this is your chance to socialize, and make DS some great little friends. I think that you just have to try to turn off the part of your head that feels like they are watching and judging, as hard as that is. If you put yourself in a mindset of "I am doing this for DS, and for myself, not for the stupid control freak leader or the other moms" it may be easier, ya know? And after a while once those relationships that you need have been developed, you can transfer them to things like park visits or playdates at eachother's homes (although I know how small your apartment is!). You are right that it isn't the worst thing in the world for him to learn that sometimes he has to sit still and listen to instructions that go against what he wants to do. I do think that 2 yrs is really young for that lesson, and she sounds like a jerk, but... I would still go. Like I said, though... every second or third week!!

But if she is making you feel that bad about yourself and it isn't worth it, then don't go. Surely there is something else going on that day so you aren't butting heads staying at home? It would suck not to make friends, but if it is hurting you that badly then the potential friends aren't worth it.

Please don't think that I agree with her methods or attitude, though! She sounds like someone who shouldn't be working with young children. My advice is based on the fact that the group is what it is, and things won't change while she is there.

[aisling]

Mashi hugs.

I so understand about being upset about the circle time especially. I have "quit" the library programme and another playgroup about this when DS was 2yrs. We did go back to teh library programme once he was 3 though.  I wrote a letter to the manager at on of them as the leader was horrible and like you said (having my own experience teaching LO's Music and Movement classes and do this for DS's school) had a personality of a wet mop.  I couldn't stand sitting in the circle listening to her, never mind with a spirited toddler.  Now you don't need sing like Judy Garland or be as animated as the narrator on In The Night Garden but come on, at least smile and also understand some child development and age appropriateness song activities.

I find the whole issue with a traditional circle time is this, the right age is a baby or preschooler.  KWIM?  Where they can just sit with Mama and enjoy the sights and sounds or when they can actively participate and sing or do the finger play or dances.  Toddlers need a whole different approach.  When I taught the 18 month to under 3, I always let them have props like puppets, bells, balls etc....to use to entice them and kept things moving fast.  If the child did not want to participate, then it was fine for them to go off as long as there Mum was with them.  Also, children will learn songs form outside the circle, trust me, even though they are not participating, they are taking it in in their own way.  

In the end, I was so frustrated, felt like my child and I were failures (I actually posted about it on BW back then) and tired of sweating my a ss off trying to keep him still, we quit. I don't like being a quitter so it was a big deal, but in teh end it was right for us. At least we had other play places to go to.

Not sure what to say for you as it is so great you get to see the other families who are friends of yours. Just wanted to let yo now that you and your DS are normal (in my books)!

I find the 2's are an awkward stage like adolescents kwim??  Frustrating.

[jess, lukeys_mom]

Hi Mash

That sounds a lot like the kids' farm near my house which I think you went to!   My kids love places like that (and I agree with a pp that I'd be lifting them over the fence to the goats if they locked us out!!!)

So I do not think you are being unreasonable in the way you've been feeling about it, but I guess I feel like if it's her playgroup, and these are her rules, then it's take it or leave it.  She does sound like a total control freak but I also do understand her need to have everyone relatively on the same page so she can manage the group, and the time you are visiting her place is during the one structured time. I keep equating it to our gymnastics lessons which sound similar in that there are times when they are doing other activities that running and jumping on all the equipment, and they ask parents to support that. For a while there when Luke was 18m-2.5 he just did NOT want to sit down. So I did not force him.  But I did feel it was reasonable to keep him off the climbing wall and the big stuff until song time was over - especially given that the other parents and kids were into it.  Then it was not just about us biding by the rules, but also about us not providing too many distractions so that the other kids and parents can enjoy, kwim?

I think that given that your DS seems to otherwise be having fun, and that you really like the interaction, in your shoes I would try to take the If You Can't Beat Em Join Em approach.  I am wondering if there is a way you can work things out with Lucas so that he is more enthusiastic about the songs? At the gymnastics class, from about 2.5 Luke used to engage in the songs with me and at least stand and do the hand motions and get into it with me, but now that our au pair is taking the boys to the class, they just want to run wild and not sit and do the songs, etc. She feels a little stressed about getting them to relax but she also wondered if it has to do with the fact that she can't help lead them in this part and just kinda sits there. She's now trying to learn some of the songs at home and they're singing them together so she can stimulate them to do the little hand motions and get into it.  (It's also good for her Dutch!!) I am thinking that if your DS can see it as more fun and something that you're into, he might more easily participate or at least think it's funny to get into it?

Further I don't know how verbal DS is but maybe you can make a deal with him about the amount of time he can be on the trampoline? I know this is harder with spirited kids but then again it's also reasonable to have a time limit on certain activities too - especially if it's fairly well before the song time starts? (I CANNOT get Luke off the trampoline without HUGE tears every single time I pick him up from day care. I almost dread getting him on a nice day knowing he will be in there and I'll eventually have to climb in and pick him up screaming so we can go home. Makes me wonder if your DS would do the same whether for song time or later for any of the other activities - it just sucks to have to stop for ANY reason! )

Finally I think that it could be of use to engage the group leader on some level and talk to her about your DS and how he's getting on at the playgroup - see if she has some suggestions on helping it work better for both her AND him?  Is this possible? I know there is a total language barrier there - can one of your friends there help with the conversation??

 

[Maeve]

That sounds painful. I don't see why he should have to come off the trampoline, I wonder what would happen if you left him on it?

But I think the idea of keeping going, but less often is good, and as he gets older he might be able to 'tolerate' the singing time.

When our boys were younger and we went to these groups there were always some todders running around during song time. FGS.

[elf]

I read your entire post but only skimmed through the replies so hope I don't repeat.  Just wanted to let you know that my daughter would have (and did) behave the same way at 2 years old and I was the mum with the screaming child putting the shoes on and explaining that she couldn't jump on the trampoline.  Just wanted to let you know that at 3.5 years that is not the case at all.  My girl is totally spirited but by 3.5 she totally gets the explanations to things and we can discuss what is expected and how it may make her feel etc and she is absolutely fine... though not at 2 years old.  Second time around with my 15 month old son and I'm beginning to see his spirited side come through, I will probably just carefully pick what I take him too over the next year, knowing that by the age of 3 he will cope so much differently.  But, if I choose to take him to structured activities where I know it will set up a tantrum because he will want to do X,Y and Z, then I'll at least be prepared for it.  For us, this behaviour passed with age and maturity... Those sorts of 'rule's just did not work with my daughter and at times I wondered if I should just let her 'learn these rules' at that age and was I spoiling her etc, but no, not at all.  The daughter I have at 3.5 years old is very different to the one I had at 2 years old - though still spirited, strong willed and stubborn, that outgoing, confident, fearless, happy, energetic personality does understand 'rules' and what is expected and those sorts of events/playgroups are not only fine but totally enjoyable - because of her spirited nature...