Routine help needed

[Apsof2010]

Hi everyone

My DD is 5 months old and exclusively bottle fed. generally we have a good routine, but there are a couple of things I am now confused about.

So here's how our usual day goes

Wake up anytime between 6 and 7 but I try not to feed until 7

E 7:00 5-6oz
A 2hrs unless she woke up early and is really tired
S 9:00 usually 1 hr sometimes longer
A 10-10:30
E 10:30 6oz and pears
A 2 hrs from last awake
S 12-13:00 sometimes longer
A 13:00-14:00
E 14:00 5-6oz
A 2 hrs
S 15:00 usually 30-40 mins
A 16:00-17:30
E 17:30 6oz and baby porridge
A bath, some quiet play
S between 6:30 and 7:30, depending on when the last catnap finished
DF 10:30 reluctantly 2-3 oz

My questions are:
Do we need to be on a 4 hr EASY?
Why does she keep waking up early?

Every single morning she wakes up at 6 and sometimes will settle back to sleep with a dummy. I tried extra catnap in the evening to make her last a little longer and go to bed later - didn't work. I tried feeding at 6 but she doesn't take much and will never settle back to sleep, so then the whole day is messed up.

Should I drop the dream feed? A few times she completely refused it and then went on to sleep as usual. Even when she takes it , she never drinks a full bottle, and clearly doesn't appreciate being disturbed. But I worry that she will start waking up even earlier because of hunger.

Thank you

[empowered mama]

hi there hun,

It is appearing to me that your LO is getting OT from not enough nap sleep during the day, which might be the cause for the early wake up.  How does she wake from that first and 2nd nap?  Generally happy?  When my LO was this age, 1 hr naps typically meant he was UT and we needed to extend the A time a bit for him to get a longer nap. 

Also, your A time between the catnap and bedtime is quite long so you may want to consider bringing bedtime up a bit, like around 6/6:30 if the nap ended at 4:30.  Generally they can't last as long after a shorter catnap - make sense?

HTH

[Apsof2010]

Hi and thank you for your response!

She always wakes up happy from her naps, playing in her cot until I or DH come in and get a huge grin from her.

But having read a lot of info here I considered moving closer to 4hr EASY now that her reflux seems to be under control. Her A time kind of extended itself, not settling for a nap unless I put her down a bit later than usual (15 mins). I don't know what helped, but now she sleeps till 7-7:15 am and I am very very happy about it!

I agree that she might be OT, she gets rather fussy at bedtime, but I can't make her sleep longer during the day! And her last feed is at 6 now, if I do it earlier she's not hungry enough, and if I do it later she's too tired! She has never taken a feed after a bath, so by the time she's fed, burped, given solids, kept upright for 10 mins, bathed.... It's already 7 or even later  

[Jiinx]

Just peeking in and chiming in with Car bear

I think just a couple of tweaks are needed to her routine. Like Carrie mentioned, she may not be getting enough day time naps. I'm thrilled that she's getting night time sleep - yay! that's the eventual goal

I found this link:
* http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=63161.0

I think her As just need to be upped juuuust slightly. Starting with one. Perhaps the first one. The fact that she wakes up happy means she could probably use a bit more of A time. And if she has a short first nap, I would decrease her second A. If she's still short napping after the same A time (i.e. 2 hours) then you need to decrease the third A by even more..

HTH!

[empowered mama]

Yep, Sarah said it swell (say that 3 times fast!)

Maybe a slight bump in that first A time would do the trick?  Could give it a shot and see if you get the day off to a good start?

Hope those nights stay consistent for you....that's your saving grace

[Apsof2010]

Oh well, we are back to square one today. Woke up just after 6, so inevitably was exhausted by 8:30, but then only slept for 45 minutes and just now she woke up from her second nap after only 45 mins again. What do 45 minute naps usually mean?
She is usually ok to put herself back to sleep. Although she falls asleep with a dummy, she loses it and never wakes up for it.

I love the fact that she is STTN, but I'm never able to get to bed early myself, so that 1 hr in the morning makes a big difference! Plus EW messes up the whole day
 

 Thank you ladies for your suggestions, I will try to increase her A time, it will have to be tomorrow though since today is already a mess

[empowered mama]

Hmm...45 min naps *might* be indicative of the developmental delays in day sleep for LOs under 6 months of age.  From birth to 3 months they are organizing their night sleep and during 3-6 month range they are organizing their day sleep.  Hence the need for assistance to transition to the next sleep cycle.  We used to do HTTJ for nearly every nap until DS was 6 months and it proved very helpful.  Here is a link that explains a bit more: http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=64168.0

I would also give the new A times a few days for her body to adjust.  At that point, we can see if anymore tweaking is needed or if this is something you may just have to ride out.

You're doing great though!

[Jiinx]

wrote this up as EM wrote her reply! eeps..most of it is a repeat

oh How frustrating! It's never fun to play catch up when the first nap of the day is so short.

Well, I can offer some information that may / may not be useful!

At 12 weeks most babies start having short naps.  It's a developmental phase they go thru.   It happens because their REM/non-REM sleep pattern changes, causing a light sleep phase at around the 45 min mark.  Since that hasn't happened prior to this period,they tend to wake up.  We have to teach them to go back to sleep.  For this, HTTJ (holding thru the jolts) tends to work best. However, this isn't the only method to use.

If LO typically wakes at 45 min, you go in around the 40 min mark and wait to see LO start to move.  One the jolting begins you apply gentle but firm pressure to arms and legs.  (note: you may have to experiment with timing -- even tho you hear her cry at 45 min, she may begin jolting much earlier.  So the first nap or two you may just want to sit quietly in her room and watch how she sleeps).

The first couple of times you attempt HTTJ LO will probably still wake up. continue holding until LO really protests.  By the 3rd or 4th time you'll probably see LO open their eyes but then go back to sleep.  After about 2-3 days of this (doing it every nap) you should see LO rouse less and less until when you go in to hold him down he will just stir a bit then roll over and go back to sleep.

What time did she go to sleep last night? Did she get 10.5-11 hours of sleep total? She may have been tired, but still able to do a full A time in this case.

[Apsof2010]

Oh yeah she got 11 hrs... I know I shouldn't be complaining but I also know she likes her sleep and days go better when she wakes up around 7 and not 6... We are both happier that way

I wonder if today something was wrong with her though, on top of not sleeping (4 naps of 30-45 mins), we had lots of grunting and 3 runny mucousy poos... I posted a question on the food allergy board, will see....

I'm going to start experimenting with A times and HHTJ on your advice. Tbh I never actually know exactly when she wakes up, because she just plays and I only see her awake on the monitor or when I go in to check on her little munchkin, she is always waking up happy but I think still tired, lots of rubbing eyes even after a nap!
 

[Apsof2010]

Hi again

I absolutely don't know what's going on with my LO, her daytime sleep is gradually getting worse!

Her naps went from 45 mins down to 30! I tried to extend fist A time in the morning - didn't help HTTJ has been nearly impossible because I just can't catch the time she is waking, and even when I am with her when she wakes up she just rolls on her back (she sleeps on her tummy)  and starts giggling! Very cute but not so helpful.

It was so bad yesterday with 3 30 min naps, that she was screaming from tiredness at 6 and had to go to bed. She still slept till 6:30 so I'm grateful for that. It's just this daytime sleep issue is ruining our routine, that plus refusing all solids apart from porridge
 

Do you think it could be the dummy issue? Although she wakes up even when it's still in her mouth

Thank you for your input
 

[empowered mama]

hi there hun,

What are her A times at right now?  Have you thought about teething possibly?  I know sometimes it's hard to tell, but it wouldn't be out of the question at 5 months.  Often teething can affect naps and cause food refusal. 

If she still wakes with the dummy in, then I would be inclined to think that that is not the issue.  My guess is either routine or teething...

Hang in there!

[Apsof2010]

Her A times are all over the place at the moment I try to keep first A time 2 hrs and 15-20 mins, but the rest of the day it's between 1,5 and 3 hrs. Sometimes She just won't   Settle for a nap at all!

I thought about teething, although I can't see anything in her mouth. She still drinks her milk, will eat as much porridge as I give her, but frowns when I give her veggies (can't blame her sometimes I wouldn't eat swede myself tbh )

If it is teething, when will it pass? I'm afraid it will start to affect her night time too  

[Jiinx]

hi there hun,
 Could you post your EASY?

The fact that she's sleeping well at night (12 and half hours) can indicate she may not be having teething related problems. However, this is just a thought.

With a 12 and half hour night...this can definitely affect day time sleep. Just like having too much day time sleep can affect a night, too much sleep during the night can affect days. It's difficult, I know, bc you want them to catch up with their sleep I know ...

[empowered mama]

Yep, I agree with Sarah on all that night sleep.  I remember when I was doing the very same thing around this age for my LO and the lovely Sarah advised me to cap it at 12 hrs and the naps seemed to improve as a result.

But yes, let's take a look at your EASY again to see what might be tweaked....we're here for you

[Apsof2010]

Thank you so much girls!i feel like it's getting worse and I don't know how to deal with it

So here's our approximate routine, things are different a little bit every day

Wake up between 6 and 7
E 7:00 7oz
A 2hrs20mins ish unless she woke up early then it's up to 2 hrs
    omeprazole at 8 sometimes with pears
S 9:00 (9:20) -10:00 trying to resettle with no success so it's
A until next feed
E 11:00 6-7oz, offer vegetables but she frowns on them, will eat pears sometimes
A 2 hrs from last awake
S 11:30(12:00) again 30-45 mins, trying to resettle for an hour or so usually
E 14:30 7 oz
A this varies
S anytime between 15:00 and 17:00, a couple of times she didn't settle at all, and ended up going to bed too early, or sometimes she'll have 2 catnaps, because all naps are so short
E 17:30-18:00 7 oz, porridge
A bath, wind down
S depends on her last nap, usually asleep by 7 the latest

No DF

I have to add that I think it is getting worse, because last night when I changed her nappy before I wanted to go to bed myself, she woke up (never happened before). Didn't settle for about an hour, just wanted to play! I gave her a feed in case she was hungry, she took 3 oz, then fell asleep.
Then in the morning she was awake at 5:50, again, not upset, just happy playing(and grunting, so nobody can sleep). I thought well maybe she's hungry, offered a feed, she only took 3 oz, but didn't settle anyway, was very happy and very active, just moving around a lot. I kept trying to settle until 7. At 7 I got her up as normal, fed (4oz), meds, play as usual, and at 8:15 she got tired and went to sleep. Sitting with her now waiting to do HTTJ
So now the whole day is going to be early, and I feel like it's a vicious circle