S/P Questions

[BlessedKylie]

Ok - so I've hit rock bottom on the AP front. My LO will no longer sleep in her crib for naps. As soon as I put her down, she wakes up and starts crying. I spend the remainder of her nap time replugging the paci and/or trying to use S/P until I finally give up and let her sleep in my arms. I know I keep reinforcing the habit, but I have some questions about S/P that keep me from following all the way through.

I read the book over and over and it seems that S/P is just PUPD with shushing and patting. It says to S/P in the crib unless they cry, at which point you pick them up, calm them with S/P and then put them back down and continue S/P unless they cry, then you pick them up again. Am I missing something here? I though PUPD was not too stimulating for a LO under four months?

So my question is do I leave her in the crib and keep shushing and patting even if she cries? Or do I basically do PUPD - because as soon as I get her calm and put her down, she starts right back up again... I'm so confused.

BTW - LO is 7 weeks and has a naptime paci addiction that I'm going to tackle as soon as she can find her fingers...

Also, on the 4 S wind down, I do the sitting until she gets to the eye dropping stage, right? Then I put her in the crib and S/P immediately, or wait until she starts fussing? Or since I know the fussing will turn into crying, do I S/P before she even starts fussing? And do I keep S/P until she falls asleep or just for 5 or so minutes after she calms down?

Today, I did S/P for 30 minutes in the crib (the whole time she cried), at about 30 minutes, she got hysterical, so I picked her up and tried to S/P over my shoulder, that didn't work and I was honestly afraid I was going to drop her she was squirming so much. So I held her in the chair and did S/P for another 40 minutes - of which she cried for 35 minutes. By then it was time for her next feed.

Sorry I'm rambling, I have a four year old in my ear right now and DD2 in the swing in the other room... any help would be greatly appreciated...

[*Jo*]

Hi there, ok first of all are you able to put up your routine? this will give us a clearer picture of the whole day.

S/P is not Pu/Pd with shushing and patting. If your baby cries you continue to shh/pat. the idea is that they cannot focus on all three things at once, the crying, the patting and the shhhing so the crying stops and they focus on the patting and shhing. However sometimes you may need to adjust this for your LO. Dont worry about a paci habit at the moment, this wont be an issue until she is about 3 months old onwards

With the 4S wind down you do the sitting (or standing and slow dancing as we used to do) until you feel she is ready to fall asleep, so drowsy but awake. you put her in her cot, say your key phrase and then leave. if she cries then just wait a moment and assess what type of cry it is, is it a mantra cry? or is it a "Mum I need you" cry? you go in on the "need" cry. If you go in on the mantra/fussy cry then you are stopping her from learning to self soothe.

If she cries and you need to go into her then you need to allow yourself 20 mins for patting. Once you feel she is fully asleep then you continue to pat for another 7-10mins. There is usually a jolt at the 10min mark and at the 20min mark.

Today, I did S/P for 30 minutes in the crib (the whole time she cried), at about 30 minutes, she got hysterical, so I picked her up and tried to S/P over my shoulder, that didn't work and I was honestly afraid I was going to drop her she was squirming so much. So I held her in the chair and did S/P for another 40 minutes - of which she cried for 35 minutes. By then it was time for her next feed

not sure whats going on here, could be OT, but lets see what your routine looks like.

also does she have any medical issues like reflux?
do you use white noise/swaddle/darkened room?

[BlessedKylie]

Baby K pretty much eats every 3 hours with cluster feeding at night. Today will probably go like this...

E - 7:00
S - 7:40 - 10:40 (getting lucky this morning, she's been restless, but she's still sleeping)
E - 10:45
A
S - 11:35 start to wind down. This is where it gets hairy. Eyes open to shut is no more than an hour, but if she does happen to make it to her crib and actually stay asleep, I get no more than 45 minutes before we start playing the "pacifier game" where she spits it out and I replug it until her next feed.
E - 1:45
A
S - have to pick up DD1 at 3:00, so she will likely take a 15 minute nap in the car and come home way OT at which point I will hold her in the sling for a nap while I try to play with DD1
E - 4:30
A
S - 5:30 - 6:30 catnap in the swing while I fix, eat and clean up dinner
E - 6:30
A
E - 7:30
S - 8:15 for usually 6-9 hours (this part I am extremely happy about!!!)

Her room is completely blacked out and I use a white noise machine. She does have a bit of reflux, but nothing that causes her discomfort - she's a "happy spitter."

The thing that I don't get about S/P is that do you leave them in the crib the whole time - even if they are crying? I switched from shushing to a heartbeat sound as it is easier on me and seems to distract her more (I also use it during our 4S as a sleep-time cue), but if she starts crying, she usually can't be calmed with S/P. She just cries right over the noise and the patting. She did for 30 minutes off and on yesterday when I tried to extend her nap (although she was probably OT).

I'm thinking it might be wise to hang back a bit on the sleep training until she can find her fingers. She needs to suck and as she can't replug herself, she can't really self soothe. She tries to suck her hand, but it doesn't really do it for her yet since she can't control it - she winds up just wacking herself in the face and getting upset.

I really want to lay the foundation for good sleep now (consistent wind down), but as far as expecting her to put herself back to sleep without replugging the paci, I think that may be unrealistic at this point? 

[*Jo*]

so she is not swaddled? I would swaddle her for now if you can. as for the rest of it, you need the white noise to be sooooo loud, louder than her cry if you can, the louder the better, it was pretty loud in your womb so she will like it that way. I never used to actually "shhh" because my lips felt like they were going to drop off but the white noise was effective enough. shh/pat you leave them in the crib the whole time even if they are crying, however if she is getting really worked up then you pick up and do a quick shh/pat over your shoulder. we want to have as little picking up as possible though because its overstimulating for them and also if she does have reflux then it will aggravate her reflux. She may be a happy spitter but she still cant tell you how much it hurts. Caleb was a happy spitter but the dr said he had a red sore throat most of the time which meant he was in pain, but we never knew!

I dont know about it being unrealistic for her to put herself back to sleep without replugging the paci, we never really had that issue till C was 4 months old and we dealt with it straight away, but he was older than your LO.

with the 45min naps, this can be jsut developmental but that doesnt mean you dont try and get her through it anyway. have you tried HTTJ or W2S?

That A time between picking up DD1 and the next naptime is far too long, is there anyway you can offer her a nap as soon as you get home? I know its hard with another LO running around but because shes done such a short nap you really need to get her into another nap as soon as you can

[BlessedKylie]

I have tried HTTJ, but not W2S... I'm so paranoid to try that and disturb what could have been a 2-hour nap (which we do get sometimes).

I know the A time when we pick up DD1 is too long, so I try to shorten or lengthen her feeds to make her next feed as close to pick up as possible, but it doesn't always work. I will keep tweaking though.

BTW - yesterday turned out to be a GREAT day. Instead of the above... went like this...

E - 7:00
S - 7:40 - 11:00
E - 11:10
A
S - started wind down at 11:45, but she was fussy after I ate too much dairy the night before, so after a few spit ups, she finally went down at 12:30 and slept until I woke her at 2:15!
A - pick up sister
S - 3:30 (overtired by now and upset tummy - took a while to settle)
E - 4:30 (first cluster feed)
A
S - 5:45 - 6:30 in the swing
E - 6:30
E - 7:30 (top off)

And then she slept for 6 hours, then 4 hours and is now still asleep after another 3 hours.

[BlessedKylie]

So I did s/p yesterday for both of her morning naps. She cried the entire time. I feel like I'm letting her CIO with a bum pat. I talked to her every 5 minutes or so just to let her know that I am there and she is not just getting mysteriously whacked on the bum... but still. The first time she cried for an hour, the second for 45 minutes (trying to hold her off to within 15 minutes of her next feed). She only got to the "I really need you to pick me up" cry once during nap 1, but as soon as I picked her up, she was quiet, so I patted her for a minute, told her what was going on, and put her back down... she immediately started crying again.

Am I doing this right?

[mum2girls]

blessed kylie i have the same problem.
My DD is 11 weeks and naps are a nightmare, she doesnt respond well th shush pat so i have given up on that, i also read it in the book as if they start crying then it becomes PU/PD, confused me aswell.
My LO used to go to bed at night (7.30pm) easy and hardly ever cried, in the past 2 weeks she has screamed the house down and i have trouble with my consistency in settling her.
its tough but im hoping she will grow out of it
good luck
Renee

[mum2girls]

just wondering if you having any luck blessedkylie?
ive had terrible naps and as soon as i lay her down she screams, to the point where i have to pick her up, and as soon as i pick her up shes out to it in my arms,
frustrating isnt it!!

[BlessedKylie]

It is REALLY frustrating!!

I had a bit of luck yesterday. I started swaddling K again. I stopped because she seemed really close to finding her thumb and I was tired of the paci. I noticed that she was getting frustrated at NOT getting her thumb though, so I wrapped her up. She still woke at the 30 minute mark, but I was able to settle her for her first nap - she dozed off, but didn't really sleep, and get her back to sleep for her second nap. I am going to try this again today.

I am still holding her during wind down until she is completely asleep. I have it in my head that she can't fall asleep on her own until she finds her thumb, so I'm not even trying. As soon as she does though, the paci's are going in the trash!!

I did all kinds of APing with DD1. I held her constantly and let her sleep on me whenever she woke up. And if she wouldn't sleep, I put her in the swing so that she would. As soon as she starting sucking her fingers (around 16 weeks), I took the paci's and did the sleep training. It only took a week or so. I think it will be less for K as I am laying more groundwork for her.

How is it going for you?