don't know where to start

[lexie1607]

Hi All
Ok so i am really not sure where to start to try and "fix" things. DS2 is now 19 weeks and his sleep has gone to pot. He doesnt nap well and at the moment we are co sleeping as it is the only way we get any sleep.
We have sort of a routine but it's a bit vauge. Oliver has to fit in with his elder brother who attends nusery so apart from his first nap the other 2 are generally in the pram and are not very good. At night we have a bath bed feed routine. He goes down asleep and then wakes up after 45 mins and is really hard to settle. mostly i end up going to bed with him.

so our day goes somthing lke this
8am wakes for the day. BF
10am - nap for about 50 mins. in cot cuddled to sleep
11-BF[
1240- NAP in pram on way home from nursery-will usualy ake as soon as we are home at 1pm.
1.30pm BF
240-NAP in pram on way to nursery - may wake up at 315 or 3.30
4pm bf
6pm bed bf to sleep
so i know he must be overtired but just dont know where to start. if i start to put him down awake then is pat shush better or should i do pu/pd
We no longer swaddle him because he can roll and he weighs around 18lbs so should feasably be able to sleep a good amount i would think. Any advice would be appreciated.

[Jiinx]

Hi there!
 Welcome to the boards! Let's see what we can do...

 I don't have two children but I really know how tough it is. Hopefully a mom with two can pitch in with their advice In the meantime...maybe these links can help?

* http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=80827.0
* http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=63933.0
* http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=164034.0

Luckily, he's still young but as he gets older he's going to expect to be cuddled to sleep all the time. It'll get really tough...you do need to dedicate a good week to sleep training to nix the habit.
 
Eat
I notice he gets fed quite often..sometimes 3 hours, sometimes 3.5 hours. Is he hungry at these times? Does he take a full feed? I'm just wondering if he's waking at night from hunger due to not getting a full feed at each E time.
If you get a chance, look at some routines for his age:
* http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=164029.0
Since he's almost 5 months, I would imagine he's approaching the time when he can go 4 hours between feeds.
* http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=63161.0

Activity
Goodness...it's tough..is there anyone that can watch him at home while you go out? Or anyone that can pick up your little one while your baby sleeps at home?
What may work is a slight increase (5-10 minutes) in his first A time ...perhaps that bump will increase his nap and get a good restorative nap so you can go out and then come back and nap him at home.

Also, when he does short nap - i.e. 45-50 minutes, you do need to cut the second A time. So EAS becomes EASASE or EASEAS etc..

Sleep
so yes, shush/pat will work at his age. It took my lo a week to get used to it. There was a lot of crying..

* http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=85499.0
* http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=85499.0

I don't want to bombard you with too much information..so I just want to pause and let you ask any questions that you may have. *hugs* It'll be okay...really. We'll take it one step at a time.

Looking forward to hearing back from you..

[lexie1607]

thank you for repliying,

Last night was a tough one as he was awake at 11pm , 1 am and then on and off till we got up at 7:00 ish

Today my eldest ds spending the day with his grandparents so will observe DS2 and try and extend A time and E time a bit. I am not so good a reading cues so found that i often offer him a feed. My eldest was a big comfort feeder and didnt wean till he was 2 and a half. I dont think he wll get to 4 hrs but will see how we go. i think sometimes i feed him early because i know we will be on the school run ( we are out for an hour) and there will be nowhere to feed him.
DH Will be back home Monday and said he will help. will keep you posted.

[Jiinx]

okay sweetie...let us know how you do today. I hope you rest when he naps..

thinking of you.

[lexie1607]

so DH is home and we decided that we would go for it this weekend. So far it has been an hour and i feel like my heart is breaking. He is so upset and I know if I went in and gave him a BF he would fall alseep. But I also know that we have to do this. Last night the longest stretch of sleep he did was 2 hours and mostly he woke every 45 mins to an hour. The only consolation is that i know he is not crying on his own and either DH or myself is with him. I feel like we could be doing this for some time yet and i think it is quite possibly the hardest thing I have ever done. 

[Jiinx]

oh oh! *hugs* it's sooo tough. I've never experienced heart ache such as when my lo is crying..it's agonizing. I want to say that we're here for you.

Can I ask you what are you doing? Shush pat?

Would you like to post your EAS to see if anything stands out?

[lexie1607]

hi well he is asleep now but making little snuffly noises so not sure that he will be down for long. We are doing shush pat, but when he gets really upset we are doing pu/pd. holding him for no longer than 3 mins. It's difficult to plot our easy routine. Generally he wakes between 7 and 8 ish. He naps roughly every 2 hours and feeds roughly every 3 to 3 and half hours. His naps are eratic. A good nap is 50 mins long - very occasionaly he will have an hour and half. The problem I often get is that he will fall asleep in the pram on the way to DS1 nursery or on the way back but will rarely sleep for long, say 20 mins max, but he is impossable to then get back down until another 2 hours have passed therefore his overtiredness accumalates.

I am hoping that when he learns to self sooth that his naps will also get longer.

Edited: Well he has gone for 45 mins and DH is now up there with him, please god it wont be another hour and half or longer. I get the feeling though that it may be like this all night . I am just trying to keep faith that we are doing this for him and that he will be so much happier if he gets the sleep he needs.

Edited 2: OK so that one took 30 mins- a huge improvment. Yay my little man Couldnt do it without the support from DH though. He has been amazing.

[Jiinx]

yay for your dh!! I'm sorry I wasn't here earlier to hold your hand

It DOES get easier. I had to wear ear plugs when I sleep trained..mind you, mine was a month earlier.

With PUPD, what I did was pick her up, say my catch phrase "it's okay, mommy loves you it's time to go to sleep now" and put her down after I said this. I did most of my calming in the cot..with shush pat. If she didn't calm down after 10-30 seconds then I repeated. It was really really hard...exhausting. I had her lovey in the crib nearby and after awhile she took it for comfort.

How's your night going?

[lexie1607]

Morning,

well he woke frequently although  we had one 2 hour unbroken stretch. He generally took around 20-30 mins to get down in crib. He had 2 feeds at 10pm and 2:15am and then we started the day at 6am! However he took 5 mins to get down for a nap this morning and has so far slept 8:30 till 10, a first for him!  he is just making a few noise now so think he will wake soon.

At first we had him on his back and we were patting his tummy but realised that he prefers to sleep on his side, as he can roll and is in a baby sleep bag I am happy for him to do this.

we are both really tired but elated that things are already better after 1 day. Oh and DS1 slept through without been disturbed 6:30 to 7am!

[Jiinx]

sweetie..that's wonderful. The first day is always the hardest. The following days get easier...and then they test you after a week But it's brief and it should be smooth sailing after that with some small tweaks in your routine..

*hugs* I hope you get some rest today. Your dh and you did amazing.

[lexie1607]

so today was great nap wise

E- 6am
S- 8:30-10am easy to settle
E-10
S-12:00-1;20 - woke at 1240 took 20 mins to get back down - poss undertired. very easy to settle
E-2pm
S-3:30-5PM - We woke him - easy to settle
E-5:30
E-6:45 up and in cot by ten past 7, hard to settle, took 30 mins
S-7:40

So not sure why he was harder to settle at bed. He had a bath at 6 with DS1 ( who goes down for half 6) and then come down stairs for a chill and a feed before bed. as soon as we saw an eye rub we took him upstairs. Still it was a million times better than yesterday and the crying no where near as intense.

Thanks for all the support. Fingers crossed it keeps getting better.

Alex

[Jiinx]

Hi sweetie,
 He was UT for the second nap. Quite commonly, los can handle more A time as the day progresses. So if he had 2 and half hours this morning..I would imagine (esp if he woke at 40 minutes - happy? ) he could do 2 hours and 45 minutes.

 His third nap should have been capped at 45 minutes...since he had an hour and half, which is a restorative nap, he wouldn't have been ready for bed until 7:30. Does that make sense?

Hope that helps Hope he has a good night!

[lexie1607]

OK, so that sorta makes sense, If he had had 45 mins then I guess he would have gone down to bed earlier. I think I will watch him closly today fo tired signs for his first nap so we can really try and get in to a rhythem, although if he does start to go 2 and half and 2 hour 45 then I dont think he will fit in a cat nap.

This is quite strange teritory for me as DS1 always had 45 mins naps till he was over one and had the cat nap till he was around 9 months old.

Last night was pretty tought tbh. We had the following.

Finally asleep by 7:40pm
NW- 9:40 - Took 50 mins to settle
NW-11:30 - Gave BF but settled in crib bt 12:15am
NW-2:30am - Gave BF (My right boob was gonna explode!) didnt settle till 4:am and sicked up a lot of milk
NW-5:30- Gave BF as making hungry signs, then he had a poo so changed him. He rolled on his tummy, was very tired so told DH to just stop patting him for a bit and he fell back asleep by 6:15

We have got up at 9am. Once we have etsablished decent naps and decentish night sleep then will start getting up at 7.

edited: went down for first nap after 2 hours 20 mins . but woke after 40 mins- think maybe i went in too soon, he was crying but not hard so could have got himself off. Guess it's all trial and error,

[Jiinx]

The only thing that could get him to be waking up so often would be a growth spurt? You fed pretty often last night..

How was the rest of his day? I know it's hard with all the wakings I know it's tempting to let them sleep in, but I think it's easier to just wake them up at the regular time (or a half hour lie in) and start the day and perhaps just shorten the first A a bit. And then do an early bed if he seems sleepy.

[lexie1607]

Possibly or maybe teeth. Am so tired today. yesterdays nap were rubish. We had the first one of only 40 mins and then after that we had to be out so they only lasted 20/30 mins.  So Last night we had 5 NW and 3 NF.

Bed : 7:10 after 20 mins patting
NW: 9:30- 20 mins
NW:10:30 bf- 15 mins
NW1:30 bf- 30 mins
NW:3am BF at 4:30am- went back in cot awake settled b 5am
NW:5:45 - not really awake settled with a bit of patting in 10 mins,
Up at 7am

 He seemed so hungry, he is however also chomping down on anything that he can reach and his little cheeks are like fire engines.  I dont think him wanting feeds is habit yet, but i am going to try and feed him up today to see if that helps. When we co slept he would feed constantly so 3 feeds isnt too bad.  It doesnt help that DS1 is also poorly, he was up at 4am and has woken with a temp.

Could he get dependent on been patted to sleep. DH thinks maybe we have replaced one prop (the boob) with another patting.
am so tempted to go back to co sleeping except that it has improved his naps and for the first time we have some time together in the evening instead of him waking every 5 mins.

tia
alex

edited to say: I am feeling so demoralised now. Put him down after 2 and half hours and we had a 35 min nap. Was his long naps on Satuirday just a fluke, just dont know how to get him napping longer now. i took him up as soon as he yawned and had 10 min wind down, he went down with a bit of fuss but only took 5 mins. what am i doing wrong