What if you run out of time?

[Lemonthyme]

Ok, we've been having nap battles for a while.  Most of it my fault because he will only feed well when sleepy (otherwise 4 mins is a good feed; he's breastfed) so I normally end up feeding him before a nap.  I then wake him up before putting him down.

This worked for a while.  Now he's transitioned to two naps which was ok, easier to fit them in but still, I sometimes find that second nap difficult to get him down for and also the first one (today we tried at 8:45, he kicked around happy for 10 mins then started crying.  He'd pooed so I changed his nappy and tried again at 9:45 - he was yawning, I'm still doing PUPD now.)

Anyway, if he does go down now, or if he doesn't for that matter; I will start to run out of time for his second nap (he needs to wake up from his second nap sometime between 2:15pm and 3:45pm to avoid him being either too tired or too alert to go to bed).

So what do I do?  Normally I end up trying to put him down in the afternoon and then resorting to the pram or the car to get him to sleep for a bit in time but that feels like a prop.  I can't just get him up, shorten his A time till the next S time because the next S time is bed! 

It's 10am now, I think (I hope) he's now settled (I've been typing this between peaks in crying).  On the (rare) days he doesn't do this though, I then have the opposite problem of him waking from his last nap around 1:45/2 which is too early.

[Lemonthyme]

Oh and he did go down at 10 (great, not a huge nap but slept till 10:50) then we pop out for an hour.  On the drive back at 12, he falls asleep for 10 mins.

Now I know that come 2pm when I'm trying to get him down to sleep I'm already on a losing battle because he will think he's slept at midday.  Grrr!

I feel like I'm becoming a prisoner to his naps!

[~Sara~]

How old is your LO?  And what time did he wake up?  I'm wondering if the day's getting wonky because he's undertired.

[Lemonthyme]

He's 6 months old.  He woke up at 10:50, then he fell asleep from 12-12:10.  I took him out for a walk this afternoon and he slept from 2:30-3:10 so (even counting in the car catnap) he only slept for 1hr 40 mins today which is pretty low for a 6 month old.

Literally a couple of weeks ago we were on 3 x 45 min naps a day (i'd tried to extend them but never with any success, even if he was in the pram he'd only sleep for 45 mins) but he's gone from being grizzly after 2 hours to me struggling to get him down after 3 hours and sometimes even after 4 in a matter of weeks!

His sleep at night varies.  Sometimes he only wakes up once (and did last night) between 7pm and 6am, sometimes it's 4 times (although we only feed him once even if he does that).

It's true what they say though isn't it.  You kind of think you know where you are then they change everything.

[~Sara~]

So, I'm trying to understand his routine from what you've described (correct me if I'm wrong).  Are you starting to put him down for his naps after a 2h A time?  And then he struggles, which then turns into 3 or 4h?

I couldn't tell from your posts when he wakes up in the morning...could you post his EAS for either yesterday or today (a full 24h glimpse)?  That will help me see if there's some tweaking he might be needing.

If he is needing an A time increase, he's probably needing something in the range of 2h15-2h30 (see here: http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=64158.0).  You can try adding 10-15 minutes onto his A time to see if that helps him go down to sleep better and sleep longer.

Also, have you tried to feed him right after his naps?  Some babies are efficient eaters, so I'm not really sure if 4 minutes is unusual or not.  I can get some breastfeeding eyes on this if you'd like.  I just want to make sure that there's not a prop issue here.

[Lemonthyme]

In answer to your questions; I've tried both putting him down around 2hr 30 since he woke up and around 3-4 hours.  The former started to get really hard and he didn't seem to want it so I tried the latter which worked for a few days then stopped working then yesterday I went back to 2hr 30 ish and it worked again!

Sorry, I can't remember the times for yesterday but I know it was nearer the 2hr 30 mark and if I feed him when he doesn't want it (including after waking) he feeds really inefficiently (4 mins is good) and sometimes bites me, whereas if I feed him before sleep, it's a 10 min minimum feed and often 20 mins or more.

[skatty]

Have you tried 2hrs40/45 A time? That is a big jump to go from 2hrs 30 to 3+. I do feel for you, my dd was a crazy bad daytime sleeper for the whole of the first year, it didn't get much better after that but she blessed us with a long night so it was bearable! What i finally did was take a few days experimenting and wrote everything down and tried working out what her A times were ( and morning was different from  afternoon) it is frustrating but worth it  I think maybe he did have a jump in A time but probably not as dramatci as you'd imagine, sometimes just 10 mins more is all they need to make a huge difference.

BTW my  dd never fed for more than 5 mins at your DS's age and she was fine, put weight on steadily etc, some are just fast eaters.

[Lemonthyme]

Yep but there's fast eating and there's bobbing on and off and biting me!

[~Sara~]

Do you think that for the next couple of days, you could write down his routine and then post it here?  I think that's the next best step to take, like Katt suggested.  I'm not sure what's going on with the feeding...I can get some breastfeeding eyes on this, too, if you'd like.

[Lemonthyme]

Well according to my HV she reckons he doesn't want feeding when I offer it and he bites me; however, if I offer it and he's tired, he will feed.

Yesterday was a bit all over the place as he didn't go down for his second nap:

Woke 5:30
E - 6:00
E (solids) - 6:30
A
E - 7:30
S - 7:45 - 8:30
A
E 10:30 - 10:45
Tried to put down for a sleep, failed.
A
Tried to put down for a sleep at 11:30, failed (although my parents arrived at the door which may have disturbed him)
A
E (solids) - 12:00
E - 1:00 approx, fell asleep on me, woke when put into carseat
S - 1:00 - 1:45
A
S - 2:40 - 3:20 (in pram, his earlier nap would have been too early to get him to bedtime)
E - 4:00 - 4:05
E (solids) - 4:10
A inc bath etc
E 6:30 - 7:00
bed

Today has been a bit all over the place because we've been out but this was today so far:

Wake 5:45 - stayed in bed till 6:00
E - 6:00
E (solids) - 6:30
A
E - 7:40 - 8
S - 8:05 - 8:40
A
S in pram - 10:15 - 10:45
E (offered then bit me) - 10:50
E (solids) - 10:50
E (offered then bit me) - 11:00
A
S (in carseat) - 11:45 - 12:30
A
E (offered then bit me) - 1:30
A
E (offered after crying, ate well to start with then bit me after I changed his nappy as he pooed mid feed) - 1:50 - 1:55

[Lemonthyme]

I should also say that if it's safe to do so (as he barely eats milk otherwise) I'd like to start breaking the nap / milk link as it's tieing me to him.  It will be interesting to see how much he wakes tonight after feeding less.  Btw, last night he only woke once at 3:30am for a feed.

[skatty]

I am not too hot on A times but at a quick glimpse do you think he could have a longer first A time, maybe  if he does he will sleep longer which will make nap 2 later and hopefully that will be longer too and then you can forget about the catnap. Maybe you should write another post on feeding for tips on how to break the sleep/eat thing 

[~Sara~]

I think that he needs more A time, too.  For the first A time at least because the 1st nap is the best sign for that as the rest of the day is simply in response to that first A time/nap.  How about adding 10-15 minutes to it and see how he naps for the next couple of days?

Once we work out the right A time for him, I have a feeling the short naps and EWs will all go away.  He might still be doing the catnap, as it's hard to drop it unless A times are ~3h long.

Now, if he does short nap (normally anything shorter than 1.5h), you reduce the following A time.  By how much will depend on him: some LOs prefer 30 minutes less, whereas others prefer only 15-20 minutes less.  But that's the general ballpark.  Yes, it will mean juggling Es, but I think we can get this sorted and things will smooth out

Re: the biting at feeds, I've asked for some additional eyes on this (from the breastfeeding mods).  We'll see if they have any advice to offer.  In the meantime, one thing that stood out to me is that at he's eating quite a bit...and biting.  I don't think he's hungry when you're trying to feed him, I agree.  But have you tried NOT feeding him before his nap?  Yes, it could mean that there might be some resistance if in fact feeding to sleep has turned into a prop.  But, it sounds like he's snacking.

For example, from the Day 2 you posted:

Wake 5:45 - stayed in bed till 6:00
E - 6:00
E (solids) - 6:30
A
E - 7:40 - 8

I wouldn't have fed again at 7:40 because then...

E (offered then bit me) - 10:50
E (solids) - 10:50
E (offered then bit me) - 11:00

At 10:50, it had only been 3h since his last feed.  Then he eats solids, then he gets bf again.  Now that he's moving away from a textbook 4h EASY, and because he's on solids, too, he will be able to last longer in between feeds.  I know bf babies sometimes can't last as long as ff babies, but I think he should be able to go longer than 3h between feeds.  So, if you did no feeding before his nap, then he'll probably be hungrier after he wakes up from his nap.

Overall, I think we can work on getting him onto a more consistent routine, which I think will help you with both the naps and feeding issues.  Here's a link that shows sample routines of what LOs his age are doing:
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=164029.0

These are just guidelines, and we will work specifically with you and your LO to see what works best for him.

Sorry, that's a lot of info...let me know how the 1) A time increase goes, 2) how adjusting A time after short nap goes (if he needs that after the A time increase before his 1st nap), and 3) how the no feeding before naptime goes.  If it looks like we need to get some Props help, we will

[Lemonthyme]

Yep but today he's hardly eaten any milk at all since 8am!  And he still hasn't!  It's 4:20pm!  He literally goes on then bites me.

I'm so upset.

He never sleeps more than 1 hour absolute maximum and that's rare.  That's whatever I do so I'd always be shortening the A time.

[~Sara~]

Do you think he's teething?  I'm wondering if discomfort is playing into this at all.  Or maybe he's wanting to wean??  I'm not sure; as I've said, I've asked for others with more experience to take a look.  I'm sure we'll get some feedback within the next few hours (us mods are spread out all over the world).

Has he catnapped since he was a newborn? 3 mo?  Is he grumpy when he wakes up from the short naps, or is he happy?  If he is a short napper by nature, it's okay.  There are quite a few LOs who are.  They do things a bit differently than their longer-napping compadres, but shortening the A time is kind of the name of the game.  Here's a link that was written by a mom with 2 chronic short nappers, and she describes how she adjusted EASY (see the latter half of the post).  Both of her LOs started sleeping longer at ~7 months.
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=128419.0

*hugs* I know it's rough...I really do.  Hang in there, though.  We're here to help you, or if nothing else, support you