EASY adjustment for a 4 month old touchy baby? Unsettled 5 - 7.30pmish help!!

[anthsmum]

Hi, would love to hear anyone’s thoughts on my routine with my DS. He’s 5.5 months old but is only 4 months old adjusted as he was born 6 weeks early. I’ve tried to implement the easy routine since he was around 2 months of age but have struggled to keep to set times eat day. Usually we start off around the same time but depending on his naps feed times can vary. (although i don’t feed before 2.5hrs).

He’s mostly a touchy baby and gets overtired extremely easy (Awake time is usually around 1 - 1.25 hours! Up until a couple of weeks ago he was exclusively BF - now he has around 3 bottles of formula per day and EBM (averages 100-120ml per feed). He self settles in his cot but is still fully swaddled as it seems to be a huge sleep cue for him. When he is over tired he takes a lot longer to settle down to sleep although the last few days he’s accepted a pacifier which has helped him calm down enough on his own... (previously he would never take one and I’d have to walk him around the room to get him to calm down.)

I’d like general feedback I guess on what I’m doing but mostly my question relates to the evening... After his late afternoon feed he rarely settles.. He will have his usual awake time of approximately an hour and then start to get fussy so I’ll put him in his cot to nap. He only ever sleeps 20-30 minutes though and wakes up screaming and not happy. It’s as though he wants to sleep but can’t and just wants to be held but prefers to stay swaddled.. often he’ll nap in my arms during this time. I’ve tried getting him up after the 30 minute sleep but he just cries, sometimes even when we do hold him... thought this would be something he would have grown out of by now and seeing as he hasn’t I’m wondering if I can adjust his routine a little to help?

For the past couple of weeks we’ve started the day at 7.30 however the last few days have been 8.30am so I’ll post yesterdays times... he’s on a rough 3 hour easy... sometimes he goes 3.5 sometimes 2.5hrs also.

Wake    8.15 am
E   8.30 am
S   9.35 am (2 hour nap)

Wake    11.30
E   11.30
A   Bath
S   12.45 (1.5 hour nap)

Wake   2.15
E   2.30
S   3.30 (1 hour nap)

Wake 4.30
E   5.00
S   5.30 (30minutes)

E   7.30
S   8ish

DF   11 (although lately he’s been waking for it anytime after 10)


He usually wakes again between 3-5am for another feed although the last 2 nights he’s woken at 1.30 also. Pacifier didn’t settle him so have fed him at these times and he seemed to have a full feed.

When we used to have extremely unsettled evenings from 6 right up until 11 he used to sleep right through to 5.30-7ish... however since we’ve managed to get him to bed after  his 7.30 bottle he’s never slept through.

Any feedback anyone can offer would be greatly appreciated... thank you!

[Jiinx]

Hey there,
 He sounds like he is OT, but with such a short A time (1 hour or so instead of 1.45 - 2 hours) I'm not sure if it's only OT, ykwim?

My lo would scream when I used to take her to her crib or even throughout the day. Just wondering, could he be having any gas? Or reflux related issues? Does he spit up? Is the formula he's on settling okay with him?

However, for his age he should be getting either two naps of 2-3 hours OR three naps (2 x 1.5-2 hrs and one 45 minute nap). What I think may be happening is that he's getting one extra nap in his day. I understand, though, bc he needs that nap or his day will end quite quickly. Perhaps we can extend his day by 5 - 10 minutes on ONE A time..starting with his first one. That last nap, as needed as it may be, is interfering with his nights...I would be inclined to just put him to bed early.

Have you taken a look at these?
* http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=104500.msg1966014#new
* http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=164253.0
* http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=85499.0
* http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=64277.0

Please ask me any questions...we can work through this!

[anthsmum]

Hi - thank you so much for taking the time to have a look over my routine and give me feedback.. very much appreciated! Love this forum by the way, have learnt so much - its been such a help being a first time mum!

I know what you mean about having such sort activity times but seemingly always OT. I had a read through some of those other links you provides (thanks for that!) and I'm thinking perhaps my wind down isn't long enough. As soon as he gets a bit fussy, rubbing eyes etc I hold him up on my shoulder and walk around the house singing twinkle twinkle softly...do this for about a minute before going into his room, closing the light, putting on white noise and then laying him in his crib where I talk to him gently and swaddle him. Most times he cries when I lay him down at first but then calms with me talking to him & by the time he's swaddled he almost passes out instantly. I tuck a blanket over, then pat him and sing Rock a bye baby really softly.. if he hasn't already fallen asleep his eyes start to close at this point... then kiss him and tell him i'll see him when he wakes up. All in all though the whole wind down isn't more than about 5-10 minutes most times so perhaps I should start the walking part earlier and do that for a little longer to relax him more i'm thinking...

Also he does spit up after almost every feed during his nappy change.. he did this however even when he was fully BF so I never thought it to be anything new with the formula... There is one difference however that you've just made me think of which is he's recently moved into his crib whereas up until now he's napped and slept at night in a bassinet in my room. The crib definitely seems more comfortable for him now however the bassinet used to have the mattress raised as he suffered from a little reflux when he was younger, and the crib is completely flat. I might look at raising the crib mattress just to see if that helps...

As for his naps, so you think he should only have 2 x 1.5 hour naps and a 45 minute nap? That is mostly how his naps do go most days come to think of it - AM is around 1.5 - 2 hours, 2nd nap is usually 1.5 hours (never 2) and the last nap before the so called 'catnap' is usually for 45minutes to an hour where he wakes up happy and ready to play. Its the catnap that is always the problem... Might have a look at some of the other sample routines in terms of the earlier bedtimes and see how i go...

Today I have been pushing out his A time as much as I can and before his 2nd nap he was up from 10.10 (fed at 10.30 but wasn't very interested) - then bath etc ( finished his bottle at 11.15) and asleep by 11.30 (and he's just woken up now at 1pm chatting in his crib).

I will try what you've suggested in pushing out his A time as much as I can slowly and then I think I really need to get him onto a 4 hour routine soon... i haven't started him on any solids as yet and he still doesn't seem interested in his milk straight away so I think the 3 hour mark is too soon...Most of the time he'll cry to get up once  he's done napping but won't scream to eat straight away, can usual play for ages if I let him. Up until now just haven't known how to get him onto a 4hour routine when his A times were always so short!

Has any of this made you think anything else could be the problem?? Thank you once again!

[Jiinx]

hey sweetie,
 Was just heading to bed and hit the refresh button.

 I do want to explore the reflux a bit further. It just sounds all too familiar with me.

 Did you want to check this list ..I'll be back in the morning

* http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=107244.0
* http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=654.0

*hugs*

[anthsmum]

Hi again, thanks for those last links, he definitely suffers from a little reflux still & by you reminding me about the fact he's not sleeping in the raised bassinet anymore I think we may have found the problem behind a different issues we've been having. Before, he would get put to bed & we'd barely hear a peep out of him, not even waking for the dreamfeed, just eating in his sleep. Last week or so however about an hour after bedtime he'll wake up screaming & not settling on his own back to sleep.. At these times I have been able to insert the paci & he goes straight back to sleep but wakes & cries usually a couple of times after that. Tonight he did the same thing however after he woke crying I put him back to bed in his old bassinet with the raised mattress & he fell into a much deeper more relaxed sleep... Can't believe I didn't think the reflux could be a problem still! Definitely going to raise his crib mattress before putting him to bed in there again...

Thanks again so much, really appreciate your time

[Jiinx]

Hi there! I'm back! How are you guys?

I'm thinking perhaps my wind down isn't long enough. As soon as he gets a bit fussy, rubbing eyes etc I hold him up on my shoulder and walk around the house singing twinkle twinkle softly...do this for about a minute before going into his room, closing the light, putting on white noise and then laying him in his crib where I talk to him gently and swaddle him.

You know..I would really fight with my daughter to get to sleep. I would wait for that first yawn and whisk her away to sleep. I'm pretty sure, with hindsight, that I was putting her down too early and her 45 minute naps were UT. I just didn't realize that, I think. I'm not saying that this is your situation..but just something to think about. My lo was always yawning..and she would go down so easily for her first nap. They're very habitual creatures and crave consistency - their bodies tend to "stuck" in a certain A time. Pushing it very gently should ward of OT. And working on one A time, such as the first one, also helps.

By the sound of it, by the time he's finished his last nap (before his catnap)..I think he's just ready for bed and will, most likely, fight the last nap. Mine started fighting the catnap around 5.5 months..and it was gone by 6 months. Had many many early nights - and early days *sigh* It's a rough patch for a little while...

I definitely think 3 hours for a feed is too early. Since he's no longer a newborn, his tummy is getting bigger and he's able to go longer between feeds (since he's able to eat more at each E time!).

* http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=63161.0

Just reading your last post. I'm so so pleased. Reflux is awful. It was something that I didn't have warnings about or even any information on. i had a crying baby and I did not know what to do. Took me a lot of time AND the help of these wonderful women on this site. I'm always wary of reflux like some are wary of OT

sarah

[anthsmum]

Hi again, thanks again for getting back to me...

Think you might be right with the 'whisking away' at the first yawn... When he was younger if I didn't get him down straight away I'd have a big fight on my hands and he'd never sleep well... having said that the last couple of days I've been stretching out his morning awake time and he seems to be fine with it... Still wants to go down more around the 1.5hr mark but have been able to get 10-15 minutes more out of him and generally still has his 2 hour nap in the morning.. His 2nd awake time is still at 1.5hrs with a 1.5hr nap but I'm working to stretch this out too slowly.

Just with his feeding however (Sorry if this should be in another section) at the moment he's really not that hungry for his 7/7.30 feed.. only takes about 80mls at most.. (baring in mind he had a decent feed around 3am) This morning for example he woke just before 7, fed him at 7.30, slept from 8.30-11 and then by 11.30 wanted to eat but still only took around 120mls. It seems he can go for a long stretch in the morning with not a great deal of food but come afternoon he seems to be hungrier sooner and we end up back on a 3hr... I know this will take some time though...

I haven't started him on any solids yet because he's got fairly bad eczema so didn't want to introduce anything new until we got that under control but do you think maybe he's ready based on the fact he's not too interested in his milk? He weights just over 7kg at 5.5months - essentially he's taking in approximately 24 ounces a day plus a 3am feed. Was just thinking he should be having more than that... Also sometimes I feel as though I'm interrupting his sleep with the dream feed (as he can become unsettled after wards) but with him still waking at 3am I'm too scared to drop it yet... Or should I just drop it and see how we go?

By the way re: the catnap... I'm still offering it too him but something that has helped is the early bedtime bottle... he usually takes this 2 or maybe 2.5hours from his afternoon feed.. and then bed after that. Last night he fed at 4.30 then at 7 with half an  hour catnap and even though he started to get quite grumpy by 7 he took the feed and went to bed easily... sleeping soundly until I did the dreamfeed at 11.

Sorry about all the info - there's always so much to everything it seems ... !

 

[Jiinx]

Hi there!
 Happy to hear the success on stretching out his As...

Just with his feeding however (Sorry if this should be in another section) at the moment he's really not that hungry for his 7/7.30 feed.. only takes about 80mls at most.. (baring in mind he had a decent feed around 3am) This morning for example he woke just before 7, fed him at 7.30, slept from 8.30-11 and then by 11.30 wanted to eat but still only took around 120mls. It seems he can go for a long stretch in the morning with not a great deal of food but come afternoon he seems to be hungrier sooner and we end up back on a 3hr... I know this will take some time though...

Mine was the opposite. With her reflux she would comfort feed..and gulp in a lot. Considering that he's not waking up at night (except the one), I wouldn't be inclined to say he's getting his calories at night. Is he gaining weight? Wet diapers?

I haven't started him on any solids yet because he's got fairly bad eczema so didn't want to introduce anything new until we got that under control but do you think maybe he's ready based on the fact he's not too interested in his milk? He weights just over 7kg at 5.5months - essentially he's taking in approximately 24 ounces a day plus a 3am feed. Was just thinking he should be having more than that... Also sometimes I feel as though I'm interrupting his sleep with the dream feed (as he can become unsettled after wards) but with him still waking at 3am I'm too scared to drop it yet... Or should I just drop it and see how we go?

I know our parents probably introduced solids to us pretty early on. Call me wary, but I waited until 6months. Feeding him solids is really a personal choice between you, your baby and, if needed, your doctor. Here's a link that may help:
* http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=36922.0
 
Breastmilk, until 1 year, is really all he needs. Solids is just for fun and play ...and he's getting way more nutrients from you than he would from any fruits or veggies. Most babies are ready to drop the dream feed around 7 months. I dropped it around 5-5.5 months and just let her wake up for it. I found it just disrupted her sleep more than anything and she was soo deep in sleep, i couldn't get her to latch on half the time.

He doesn't have reflux, does he? I think I've asked ..sorry for the repeat question.

Hope that helps

[anthsmum]

hi thanks for your thoughts again! in regards to the reflux, I think he is still suffering from it a little although since we raised his crib mattress the other day it has helped a lot come bedtime. he used to be a little restless once he'd gone down for the night & after you mentioned the reflux in an earlier post I realized his crib was flat whereas his bassinet had a raised matress...

thanks for the advice on solids btw, I'm not in any rush to start him on solids especially being 6 weeks prem, just wasnt sure if he was starting to need something more because of his lack of interest in his milk.

having said that though the last 2 days have been great... today he was on a 4 hr easy all day except for bedtime feed where he was crying for it after 3.5hrs. it's helped in almost all areas, he ate well at all feeds & had 2 great 2 hour naps & then an hour nap between 4.15-5.15. his awake time definitely gets shorter by the late afternoon but in the morning were getting much closer to 2 hours than I would have dreamed possible when I first created this post!

it seems I was so worried about him getting over tired that I had him stuck on a 3 hr routine that didn't suit him anymore...

am going to continue doing the dreamfeed I think only because he does actually take it quite well...

thanks so much again! really appreciate the advice!

[Jiinx]

Hey there!
  Sounds like you're figuring things out! that's wonderful. He does sound like he's doing better with the 4 hour EASY Having feeds closer together towards the end of the day is common - your milk is less and they want to go to bed!

 Hope you have a wonderful day and things continue to go well!

[anthsmum]

Hi again - JUST when I think I've figured it out, it stops working! We had a couple of really great days when I posted last - good feeds, great naps etc and felt like he literally fell into the four hour routine perfectly! Since then though I've had 3 days of trying to work out where i've gone wrong again... He's been fairly settled but his naps have been so hit and miss causing him to be overtired by bedtime.

The main thing I can't work out is the mornings.. his morning naps have always been a given atleast 1.5hours.. most of the time 2 hours. The last couple of days though after putting him down after around 1.5-1.45 hours (still trying to push this out to 2) he's been waking at the 40-45minute mark and taking forever to go back to sleep. Normally his morning nap I barely even hear him transition, and for the first two days of extending his awake time this didn't change... I have been able to get him back to sleep eventually if I give him the pacifier but sometimes he's in there for the rest of the nap time either awake and grizzling alot or sleeping very fitfully. The only think I can think of that has been different these last couple of days compared to the days before is his morning wake up time. Generally he was always waking around 7 and would cry out by about 7.30 when I'd feed him. First 2 days of the 4 hour routine he did this which was great but since then I've had to go in and wake him at 8. I'm not sure if he's waking up earlier though and I'm not hearing him and he's dosing back to sleep or what because by the time I'm putting him down after only an hour and a half he already seems overtired...

He's been restless at night more than normal which is why I'm thinking i'm having to go wake him up in the morning... one night he seemed to have a lot of wind, another night I thought maybe it was his gums.. just not sure. I'm only feeding once a night usually anywhere between 2.30-4am but the last few nights I've gotten up to him atleast 2 other times to resettle. Sometimes the pacifier will work other times I've changed his nappy and then held him to try and calm him down or shh/pat.

Today was much the same, had to wake him at 8, fed him at 8.30 and then he slept soundly for the first 45 and then fitfully for the next hour and 15 before I went in to get him. Never cried out screaming but just tossed and turned non stop.

Having said all of this he does have bad ezcema which I'm trying to get under control at the moment so I never really know if its that causing the restless sleep... just having a couple of days where I'm feeling a bit lost again about what i'm doing and plucking at anything i guess.

Also to complicate things a little more I had him weighed this morning and he's only gaining an average of 118gms a week lately which I'm told is just under bare minimum. So now I'm wondering about solids again... He is definitely taking more milk per feed now that he's on a 4 hr easy but not a great deal more. On a 3hr easy he was eating around 100mls and now he'll have anywhere from 100-140mls..

Not sure if any or all of this is related, would love to hear your thoughts! Thanks again!!

[Jiinx]

Hi again,
 So sorry that things are a bit of a mess right now. Were there any changes to your diet? Any teeth? Anything that would make you wonder about his sleeping fitfully? Is he still swaddled?

 Any progress with reflux? Sometimes they don't want to eat when they're in pain...I'm not too sure if it is reflux related but wondering why he's sleeping so fitfully.

Would you like to post your EAS and we can see whether it's a routine tweak?

sarah

[anthsmum]

Hi - thanks for getting back to me so quickly again!

things seem to be going quite well this morning - last night after going down after the DF at 11 he slept until 1.30 and then woke up absolutely screaming. Tried the paci, picked him up to cuddle etc and he continued to scream, was almost as though he was still half asleep though.. after 10-15minutes of trying to calm him down every other way I unswaddled him and offered the breast (which I wouldn't normally do this early in the night) and he drained me completely! He was still very restless when I put him back to bed but with a bit of pressure from my hand on his chest he slowly calmed right down and fell asleep, then slept right through till 7.45 this morning.

He woke himself at 7.45am whereas the last 2 days I've gone in to wake him, and he was all happy and smiley. Had an ok feed of about 120mls and then started getting fussy toward the end of bath time so put him to bed & he fell straight to sleep after 1hr 35min awake time. He stirred a little at the 1.5hour mark and is starting to wake up now after 2 hours.. so, so far so good today!

Only thing is I need to go out for a while after this next feed so I'm hoping he'll sleep as much as he can in the car on the way there and back... will track the rest of the day and put up the EASY tonight to see if there's something else I'm missing...

In regards to my diet that hasn't really changed at all but in regards to his diet he's having half breastmilk half formula these days as I've started to wean. Took him to have a blood test yesterday to test for allergies in regards to his eczema but haven't got any results as yet.. his skin is very dry and red poor thing so half the time I don't know if its that which is causing the restlessness also...

I've suspected movement in his gums over the last couple of weeks and today and yesterday his cheeks have been quite hot and red too but I put some teething gel on after the dreamfeed so not sure if teeth is the reason behind the 1.30am screaming as the gel should've still been working I would have thought.

He is definitely still swaddled by the way, sleeps in a sleeping bag with his arms still wrapped firmly.

One thing that i've been wondering about is his tongue - it has always been coated white which I was told was normal however at 4.5 months its STILL white and is now looking more yellow because of the formula I think. Is this in any way related to reflux ?? Since we raised his cot a couple of weeks ago he hasn't been stirring after bedtime hardly at all, whereas before he would cry out sometimes around an hour after he was put to bed. But other than that I never really think of reflux.. he was check out by his pediatrician a while back who said he did suffer from reflux a little but it didn't seem to bother him. called him a 'happy chucker'. But having said all that still not sure why his tongue is still coated when he's definitely producing more saliva these days and chewing on anything he can get his hands on.

Oh also one other slight change that's happened in the last couple of days is i've changed over the teats on his bottles... up until now he was STILL using the no. 1 new born teats.. had tried him on #2 teats when I started giving him the bottle all the time and he used to cough and splutter a lot so went back to the new born ones. Its only been the last couple of days I've tried him on the #2's again and although he has the occasional splutter he seems to feed fine from them now. (Sorry if this is totally irrelevant but just remembered it was another minor change lately!)

Thank you so much again

[Jiinx]

Hi there!
 Thanks for all the information. It's nice to have the big picture
 Yay for a great nap! I'm really really happy for you. I hope the rest of the day goes well.

 It sounds like something's brewing with your son! Not sure if it's teething..but if he's drooling and grizzly and chewing on things, it may be an indication of teeth. I thought my lo was teething since 6.5 months - she got her first tooth a little bit before her first birthday Once you see the bumps of teething, you'll definitely know and see when the other teeth come in.

 Teething gels, while they work wonders for many moms, don't last too long. Although he IS sleeping, his tongue or saliva can wash over the gel quite easily.

 I wish I knew about white tongues...I do remember wondering about this when she was younger. I don't remember the age it went away. Does it come off easily with a washcloth? Does it go away after some time? the only thing that it could be would be thrush..I think this is painful, though. Again, no experience to ease your mind from this

I don't know about the Night feeds. If it's not a growth spurt, then I'm not sure if two feeds at night are necessary. Dream feeding is definitely something you should consider weaning soon.

HTH...will wait for your routine..

[anthsmum]

Hi, thanks so much for getting back to me... Haven't posted my EASY again because the last few days have been a bit all over.. Not because of Anthony but just because we've been out & about a bit so a couple of his naps have been in the car etc...

Just wanted to ask, regarding the dreamfeed you mentioned I should consider weaning soon... As it turns out a few nights ago I accidentally slept through the 11 feed and he ended up waking at 12.45 to eat then slept right through till 7.30! He did this a couple of nights in a row but the other night were out so I had to disrupt his sleep to get him in the car to come home & as soon as we got home at 10.30ish he was desperate to eat. So I fed him & hecwent to bed easily but then woke at 3 screaming & wanting to eat again!

So I'm thinking perhaps I'm better off just letting him wake after his bedtime feed rather than feeding him at 11 like ive always done... Atleast by letting him wake when hes ready I tend to only have to feed that once after bedtime. Will he eventually stop waking for this feed altogether?