almost 8 weeks, advice please!

[Tay]

TBH it does seem like your LO is getting plenty during the day and it's a matter of adjusting A times. Chicane is great with that!
xx

[Chicane]

Hi there love

hmmm...could you do another EAS for today or tomorrow to have a look at

Tay - do you think he's waiting for the let down?

Trimbler, do you feel your milk come down? Maybe he gets bored/distracted waiting for the let down? What do you think?

i think if the upright position works then do it...

if you get the chance give me another updated EAS

xoxo

[Tay]

I'm thinking he's happy enough with the feeds because (correct me if I'm wrong):
- if he's not tired he's going at least 3hrs between feeds happily
- he's STTN (or pretty close to it)
- and I'm assuming plenty of wet and dirty nappies
But there could be a bit of a letdown issue...
You could try http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=88759.0 to see if it makes any differece.
xx

[trimbler]

Thanks! I've never actually felt the let-down, but I think it must usually be fairly quick as he normally takes good gulps almost from the start... but I wouldn't be surprised if this varies so maybe sometimes it's not as quick and he might be waiting for it - I'll try and be more observant! However I'm not sure if I can do much about it - I've only tried pumping once and couldn't get let-down at all (and not keen to try again as it takes so long to prepare the pump etc, I don't really have time when I'm by myself during the working day), and I've not been successful expressing manually either...

As for the EAS - here's today (I'll start from the night before):

E 1945 (had to wake him from catnap since didn't want bed too late)
A 2015 bath and bedtime
S 2100 got to sleep (A time 1h 15; S not sure, see below!)

E/S 2230 dreamfeed

(stirring on and off from 0345ish - then I fell asleep so can't have been too long/loud as he's in the same room at night! More stirring from just before 0600, don't think he was really awake though)

E 0630
A 0700 nappy and Daddy cuddles before work; into room for nap 0720
S 0750 (A time 1h 20; S time 35min)
A 0825 - couldn't get him back to sleep

E 0930 (distracted, drawn out...)
A 1010 nappy and in chair while I got ready to go out, then getting dressed to go out
S 1030 in sling (A time 2h due to short previous nap; S time 1h 45min)
A 1215 woke, in chair while I got lunch

E 1230 (distracted, drawn out...)
A 1310 nappy, looked tired so into room for nap 1315 (time out 1400!)
S 1410 (A: 2h; S: 1.5h)

E 1540 (again, reluctant feed)
A 1600 nappy, 'chatting', into room for nap 1615
S 1650 (A: 1h 10; S: 45min catnap)

E 1740 (good feed, but poo'd up his back so had to change in middle!)
A 1810 hello Daddy! into room for nap 1815
S 1900 (A: 1h 20; S: 45min catnap)

E 1945
A 2010 bath and bedtime... (ongoing with Daddy!)

So as you see it's taken a long time to get him down for naps today, sometimes it's much better than that but also today was unusual in that he managed that 1.5h afternoon nap and got both catnaps in - he usually misses one. It's silly but I do worry a bit that if we do manage to sort these naps and he gets more daytime sleep then he might not need so much at night - and he's doing pretty well at night at the moment!

[trimbler]

Thanks Tay, only just read that! Do you mean compression can help speed up let-down, or does it just speed up the flow once let-down's happened? I do try that sometimes, hard to tell what difference it makes but I guess again I just have to be more observant! And yes, plenty of wet/dirty nappies

[bluegreenorange]

Hi.
I just say this thread and was reading through and just wanted to let you know that the 45 minutes and somewhat unpredictable full naps; the long evenings, etc sound totally normal to me. Right around 8 -9 weeks my son started waking up mid-nap as well.  I would try to get him back to sleep in his bed, then several times ended up holding him for 20-30 until I could put him back in his bed.  He is three months old and still waking up.  It seems to be just a sleep transition thing for him - don't why he does it, but I'm just hoping someday he will sleep though.  I've watched what has happened with A time but there hasn't really been any difference.

Also, right around 9 weeks my son started eating only about 5 minutes on each side.  I was so worried he wasn't getting enough, but no change in night wakings and still making it three hours, I'm sure he just got more efficient.  Every feeding is different.  Sometimes he'll eat quick and then look up at me and smile for a couple minutes, or kind of go off and on until I finally agree with him that he did get enough.

For evenings, he used take a nap from 5-6 then wake up.  I would feed and keep him awake until 8pm when I wanted him to go to bed.  One day I just decided I would not feed him until 7pm if he could wait without getting mad. Then lately, he's been extending the A time at 4 and takes a catnap around 5:45.  (I do usually hold him for this nap because 3-4 evenings a week we are out at group functions.  So even when we're home I hold him).  I was so worried it would be more difficult to get him to bed when he wasn't awake 2-3 hours before, but I've found it much easier to get him to bed when he's had a catnap just 1 hour before.

I know this isn't really helping you 'troubleshoot', but just wanted to let you know I share your experience.  I just tend to try not to worry about it too much and make sure he gets a good amount of sleep during the day, even if it takes me holding him.  But really, every nap is different, so I don't always have to hold him.

[Chicane]

Hey Trimbler,

Sorry for not getting back sooner, DH needed the computer and I didn't get a look in.

Lets start with whats average for this age. Check out the samples here http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=164253.0  look at the ones for 4-8 weeks and 8-12 weeks.

The average awake time is 1 hour to 1 hour 15 mins. at this age. The EAS you posted shows you had 2 good naps one good pm cat nap but a short nap in the morning. Theoretically, he should be getting 3 long decent naps and one CN (cat nap) the CN is the one in the late afternoon to get him to bed time. A 45 min nap that is not a CN is not considered to be restful...

BUT you know your baby best. And of course the 'average' and the 'samples' are just that, guides not rules written in stone. However, its my opinion that his A times are a little long. I would try scaling them back to 1 hr 15 or 20 mins max. You need to continue to work on our settling techniques and finding what works for you, at thsi age shh/pat is your best bet for extending naps.

The other thing I notice is the day is very long. Theoretically, you should try to aim for a 12 hour day. So if LO wakes at 6.30pm then he should be in bed for the night at 6.30pm. Although it seems counter intuitive getting good day naps helps to make the night sleep deeper and more restful and an early night does make for a longer sleep. Its not until they get much older that you can keep them up later so that they sleep in later in the morning (like when they are 3 yrs)

As far as feeds are concerned. How has his weight gain been? I think if he is not getting cranky between feeds and if his weight gain is good and the other things that Tay mentioned then he's just become a super efficient eater. And maybe its his nature to not be a really hungry baby (read greedy like my DS!) If you think he's getting distracted by other things you could try wearing a necklace with a pendant he can play with while eating. My son still plays with my necklace (he's 14 months) while BFing. Don't worry that you don't feel the let down, many women don't.

If you want you could do a little experiment and wait a little longer between feeds so that he's hungrier - I've never liked to do that though! Or you could start expressing your breast milk and start to give him one of his feeds with a bottle...this could be useful for a few reasons. 1. you might worry less if you see how much he's eating 2. if you get him used to a bottle you can continue to express and you partner, mum, someone else can give him one of his feeds so you can have a rest. You don't have to, do what feels right for you.

Finally, you mentioned you are in the same room at night. We did that too for a long time. Is he taking his naps in the same room, same cot? I ask simply because if you are changing his sleeping place then it could lead to some confusion in a couple of months when he becomes more aware...Tracy's motto was always start as you mean to go on...it took me a long while to totally understand what it meant but its a good one to keep in mind!

let me know what you think of all this

big love
xo

[trimbler]

Thanks Chicane,

Yes, his A times are much longer than what I'm aiming for! But that's mostly due to short previous naps (where I've spent the rest of the time until the next feed trying to get him back to sleep), long drawn-out feeds (which I'll maybe try and curtail by just letting him finish earlier rather than cajoling him to take more...), and sometimes poo/wee/sick incidents requiring multiple changes of clothes! So I'll keep trying... What I don't quite understand is what to do when he does go down for his nap quickly, so gets 45-60mins A time, then does a 1.5h nap (which I guess there's no point trying to extend if he's waking happy?) - then we're at 2.5h or less from the last feed and he's not ready for the next one... so we have a bit of A time but then we get quite skewed and are kind of relying on him not getting to sleep so quickly later on in the day so that E doesn't end up coinciding with the next S! Any thoughts there?

I'm not sure what to do about the long day - we used to do 3h feeds until 6:30 then bed, but he just didn't get to sleep until about the same time that he does now, where we're starting bedtime with the last cluster feed an hour later. Do you think we should try dropping the 2nd cluster feed and doing bed after the 1st catnap? I'm not confident that he'd actually get to sleep before the 2nd cluster feed if we did bedtime after the 1st cluster feed, so I'd end up feeding him to sleep... I did get some advice on here to just have a later bedtime to start with and then move it back gradually, so I was sort of thinking that when we go to 3.5h EASY we'd end up dropping the 2nd cluster feed and having bedtime a bit earlier (so as not to have a big jump - or should that not be a problem?), then earlier still when we do 4h EASY and drop another feed?? Do you find that sort of approach works sometimes, or do you think we're causing trouble for ourselves in the future? Anyway I'll discuss this with DH and maybe try doing bedtime after the 1st cluster feed - I guess I'm reluctant as DH does bedtime at the moment but I'd have to do it if it was 2h earlier!

Weight gain has been good, consistently > 80th percentile (75th at birth, 11 days late) - haven't had him weighed since 6 weeks but plan to take him in again next week so we'll see if that's continuing... I'll try the necklace thing once he has the hand control!

We decided to have him in the same room at night as that was the SIDS advice - we started out with him napping in the living room for the same reason but that wasn't working so now he's in his own room with a monitor during the day. Since his cot doesn't fit in our room, he's been in his carrycot for all sleeps - however he's almost outgrown that now so we'll have to transition to the travel cot, which will be useful anyway when we're away over Christmas. The idea was to start him in the big cot for naps at first, then all sleep in his room with him in the cot overnight before sleeping him in there overnight by himself, prob around 6 months - do you think that could work?

Thanks again!

[trimbler]

Tay - I'm now thinking you might be right and there could be some reflux here... It's just not all the time, seems to come and go - some feeds are great (both alert and sleepy), sometimes I can just put him down and he'll go to sleep all by himself and stay asleep for 1.5h or so - but other times he's really unsettled. Since you're a breastfeeding mod, please could you see my post on that board 'how do you know if your LO's really finished?' as it's tied in with that - to save repeating myself!

An example - 1st catnap today, he started crying when we went into the room, I thought he might have been a bit OT as it had taken a long time for him to settle for the previous nap, which was then only 45mins. But once he calmed on my shoulder, he cried every time I lay him down and calmed quite quickly when I picked him up - he didn't go to sleep at all, so I gave up and brought the cluster feed forward by 15mins. He didn't seem interested in feeding at first, but just looked up at me and smiled! Then he'd take a few sucks and off again, then it was like he couldn't decide what to do - mouth agape and onto nipple but immediately back off again without sucking at all, squealing. Then I tried the more upright position and with a bit of encouragement he fed quite well like that. Then back for another nap attempt, this time with DH - again, didn't settle for ages and eventually resorted to holding him, but then he only slept for 10mins and DH reckoned he was uncomfortable. So time for the last cluster feed and I tried the more upright position straight away, but again he didn't seem interested and when he did take some, he kept squealing and we both thought there must be some discomfort.

He doesn't sick up often, maybe once or twice a week, but sometimes it does seem like a lot. He got the hiccups loads in utero and during the first few weeks, but only very occasionally now - not sure if that's related?

His carry cot is inclined, but more at night (just what we've happened to be using in different rooms) - he does sleep much better at night so we'll try using the same inclination for daytime naps too...  Other than this, is there anything you'd recommend? I was planning to take him to the health visitor to be weighed again next week and will mention all this then - but do you think I should try and get an appointment with a GP sooner than that?

[Chicane]

hello my love

i wrote a huge long post and then the computer froze and died and it was all lost.

I am just about to eat dinner so can't write much now but will reply first thing in the morning.

In the meantime, I want you to be kind to yourself. Do whatever you need to do to get some rest (even if that means some accidental parenting - more on that tomorrow) and know in your heart of hearts that you and your DH are the best parents that this child could ever hope for.

'talk' tomorrow

xxx

[trimbler]

Thanks Chicane, that's so annoying for you to have to write it all out again - computers are frustrating creatures! Thanks in advance for tomorrow's post and today's encouragement - today was a hard day, naps of 45mins, 30mins, 1h and 45mins with lots of crying, confusing feeds, no cheat sling nap due to snow and no 2nd catnap - just screaming instead Thankfully my wonderful DH has now taken over until the dream feed

[Chicane]

Hi ya

Okay - I'm going to try and replicate the post that I lost.

How often does the have a short wind down and goes down easily? Could it be he just doesn't need/want a long wind down? I was having trouble and got the advice here to shorten the wind down to 10 mins and it was exactly what he wanted, he didn't want a long drawn out process. Now he's 14 months and the wind down is practically non-existant. Just a thought.

1.5 hr is considered a restorative rest. Personally, I wouldn't try extending, but if you think he is crabby and tired still you could try extending.

its hard to fit everything into an hour. If you've had a short nap, spent most of the A time trying to get him back down then move onto E and try to have at least 10 mins before putting him down again...that is shorten the next A time by a lot and try to avoid a eat to sleep association by having him awake a short time before you put him down again...make any sense?

I never worried too much about the times of feeds and just fed on demand - my son fell into his own routine and my issues and concerns were more around stopping sleep props, extending naps and teaching independent sleep. Its okay too if you find yourself doing a EAEAS kind of thing, or some other combo if that's what suits him best. The key is to try to teach independent sleep by putting them in their cot awake...

Saying all that, he is still really really little and it does take a while for the routine to establish. Focusing on your rituals, your settling techniques, avoiding sleep props and accidental parenting and getting to know him are the real priority at the moment.

I totally understand how you'd want to leave BT (bed time) as is cause you get a little break with DH doing it but I really think the day is way too long for him, and also you need to think of the future...do you want your 10 month old going to be late or will you prefer to have that evening time to yourself? As I said earlier though, its still early days, and the routine wont fully establish for anther few weeks. You could try doing the first cluster right after his CN and then the 2nd at the time you do the first. You could also try starting the day later so that it evens out. That would mean treating his 6.30am wake up as a night waking...its something I am not totally confident about...but perhaps worth having a think over.

With the necklace for feeding, it can help even at this age as something bright and shiny to focus on...some people have had success with it, others not...like everything!

As far as the rooms/cot thing - of course it can work the way you described. Its a good idea to start using the travel cot so he gets used to it for the upcoming holiday. Its a shame his big cot doesn't fit in your room though, as it would be good for him to have that consistency...its a interesting question. Have you thought about when you will move him at nights? I had DS with me in my room until he was almost 7 months. Moved him over in one night to his own room and he was totally fine! Each bub is different. Personally, I think that like all things consistency is key, but also you can only do what you are able to. He will be fine for transition, maybe it might upset him a bit at first but like everything he will get the hang of it.

No onto reflux - I am going to ask a reflux mod to take a look at what you described and offer some advice. Some other mums here have taken video of what their babies do when they think they are suffering from reflux to show the doc. It could be a good idea if you can. If he does have reflux then the routine is out the window till its sorted...but I actually think even if he does have it it sounds like a very mild case compared to what I've heard here..

hope this helps to clarify a bit

keep me posted.

x

[trimbler]

Thanks Chicane - ok, from the top:

Wind down is very short, ie walk to room, explaining where we're going (it's only a flat so not far!), put heat bag in carrycot to warm up and turn quiet music on, draw curtains and sit down for a cuddle. Once he's calm, I'll put him in the carry cot - early in the day he usually doesn't need shh/pat and the last few days he's just got to sleep with no further intervention from me. Later in the day he might start crying when we enter the room so it might take longer to calm him down before putting him in the cot. Often, after I put him down he'll start crying or fidgeting - or he'll almost drift off and I'll think we're 'safe' when he suddenly jolts awake again (not even with limbs - often just his eyes just suddenly open wide), so we're back to square one - that's why there's often such a gap between going into his room and him actually getting to sleep.

I'll go with your advice on the 1.5h nap - I don't think I've ever tried extending that anyway!

I do still find it hard to read his cues - some of that may be due to the feeding issues, as when I think he's hungry he might not seem interested... So I guess I probably feed more than 'on demand', just so that he gets fed enough during the day and can sleep better at night - or so that hunger shouldn't be interfering with naps.

As I said, we'll have a think about the late bedtime thing, we certainly want to move it forward at some point, just a question of when - but I didn't quite understand what you meant about the timing of the cluster feeds - we are doing the first one when he wakes from the CN at the moment. Do you mean to keep him awake between the two CFs, maybe bringing the 2nd one forward and doing his bath in between? But could that create a dependency on the breast at bedtime?

I agree, if there's reflux it's only mild, but then again, if there's something more that can be done it would be nice to be able to do it!

I'm sure I was about to say something else but have had failed nap re-settle, feed and next nap in between so can't remember what it was! Thanks again and I'll keep you posted

[EloysH]

Hi 

I just read through all your posts and there are a few clues here as to build a case for mild silent reflux (don't need to spit up, the fluxing happens in the throat and gose back down before it can be spit up.  Still causes pain and discomfort, but it's harder to see it).

1. He feeds better in an upright position - a comfort thing  due to his throat being sore and inflamed
2. You find it hard to read his cues even though you have a god wind down and routine in place hes getting OT and not falling asleep easily.  This is probably due to "pain/discomfort" being on the way.  No matter how well youput thme down when they are tired with a lonvey windown they will find it hard to sleep.
3. Gets OT easily - reflux bubs generally dont get enough sleep due to being uncomfortable so wake prematurely alot
4. Settles well in a sling & upright position - upright position will give more comfort when refluxing after a feed
5. Feeds are smaller and a little fussy at times ( some relfux babies don't like to get too full, and take smaller feeds more frequently). 


My DS1 had mild reflux and we didn't pick it up until he was 4 months old!  I thought I did everything wrong and my baby was just a "bad sleeper".  I read up about reflux symptoms and familiarised myself with them. I learned by wacthing him that he was showing alot of reflux behaviours, I just didnt know what they were until someone told me.  eg. nose rubbing into mattress when trying to settle, wanting to be upright for sleep, back arching when crying etc.

Here is a link to a list of symptoms to watch for :
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=654.0
http://www.cradle2kindy.com.au/BlogRetrieve.aspx?BlogID=1159&PostID=15358

If you find you are ticking the boxes for a few symptoms then you have a case for reflux.  its important to first determine whether you think that he has it or not and which are the symptoms he's showing.  Also please note that
many reflux babies gain weight well and feed often to counteract the pain. Other feed poorly and do not gain well. Every baby shows the pain symptoms differently.

We tried a few options such as herbal and homeopathic remedies before we switched to medication - Zantac at 4mg/kg.  He honeslyl turned into a new settled baby after 7 days on meds and we didnt look back. You could also look at thickeners should you be looking at a reflux diagnosis. We were able to wean him off at 9 months old when he grew out of the reflux.

HTH

Eloise

[trimbler]

Thanks Eloise - just made a long list of these to take to the GP, I definitely think we have a case for reflux, will let you know how it goes!