Sleep training a toddler - any latebloomer successes?

[koe2moe]

Keira, let us know how you guys are doing!!  You can do it, I don't have any doubts!

Grace Anne's mama, wow to your friend for all that hard work over almost 2 years!  We had to do night feeds because of repeated illnesses since DS was 12 months.  He just turned two and we stopped all night feedings just about 10 days ago.  We had to wait till DS wasn't ill nor teething.  It's not just about your friend's sleep and exhaustion, her daughter needs better quality sleep also.  There's so much development and growth taking place during sleep.  I am not trying to make her feel guilty or something.  She has to do what she can to live a life.  Please give her the encouragement that it can be done.  It will be a rough week due to age, but it will be amazing!  Bring her in here so that we can all support her!

Koe XX

[Keira]

You are all so supportive and it helps so much especially when things look bleak, I'd be a complete wreck if not for everyone here.  I wish I had progress to report but I don't. 

Nights 7 & 8, she seemed to launch some kind of protest and at every night-waking she refused to return to proper sleep.  She'd wake around midnight, ask to nurse and throw a fit even with me comforting her, then she'd spend 10-15 minutes trying to get to sleep; but then, once asleep, she'd wake again after 30-40 minutes.  And this would go on most of the night.

Nights 9 & 10 she only woke 2-3 times but stayed awake for 1-1.5 hours each time, crying at first, then sobbing on and off while trying to get herself back to sleep.

Night 11 (last night) she woke at midnight and every 30-40 minutes thereafter.  At 3pm I gave her meds just in case it was teeth, then I nursed (I know), and she slept until 5.  I nursed again and she slept until 6 (at which point I had to leave for work).  She was shattered of course, and I expect we've run into problems because she is so overtired from the past few nights of too little sleep.

My husband agreed to tweak with naps for a week (by pushing back the a.m. nap and abbreviating the p.m. nap), but I've put that on hold because I think at this point DD needs catch up on all the sleep she's missed.

sorry about the discouraging news, Grace Annes Mommy.  The things that keep me going (that I would suggest focusing on) are 1-what Koe2Moe said, that it's really about the quality of sleep, and I think when a LO is dependent on nursing to get back to sleep, the quality of sleep suffers. 2-I think the longer you wait to break the habit of using mummy as a dummy, the harder it will be for a LO to break the habit.  and 3-you guys.  your support has kept me from giving up (thank you!) so if and when your friend is ready, be sure to tell her about this place!

[koe2moe]

hugsss Keira!  I'm sorry that it didn't progress like we would expect to.  Do you notice if she needs to eat more during the day?   When you used to nurse her back to sleep, did she take a good feed or just snacking or just suckling?  

At nights 9 & 10, after 2 nights of poor sleep, did she nap longer or have earlier bedtime?  

I'm wondering if she might be:
(1) having a GS?  (DS has had so many more and longer GS than I have read or heard of and just less than a month ago, he took close to a liter of milk just in the night plus eating more during the day for about 3-5 days, i can't remember exactly now.   Last night, he suddenly woke and screamed with anger for milk which he hasn't done for over 3 weeks!  We ended up giving him a small bottle to test and he finished it and was still screaming, he ended up taking 320ml!)  
OR
(2) OT causing NWs and needed nursing to resettle (because she's used to it).  

Is tonight night 12?

[Keira]

Yes, I do think she needs to eat more during the day, but it's so incredibly hard to get her to eat more, even if we offer food throughout the day, even while she's playing (since she refuses to stay seated for very long).  Some days she eats great, other days it's all I can do to get a pot of yoghurt and a slice of bread in her.  I did expect her to be hungry at night, but figured after a few nights she'd make up for it by eating more during the day.

She did used to take a good feed, at least at the first night-nursing, and after that it seemed she was just comfort nursing but it's hard to say as I don't produce enough to provide more than one full feed in the night.  I can't really test if hunger by offering a bottle because she's very allergic to cows milk and won't take soymilk.  The joys of having a Touchy child!   I guess I could offer a bite to eat.

She hasn't really made up for lost sleep in naps or through early bedtime, despite my efforts.  So most likely I'm dealing with major OT and, now that you mention it, it's probably just that: she needed the nursing to resettle. I will definitely push through with NOT nursing and doing PD at night, I think it will just take longer that I had hoped.  She is 16 months, after all, not a baby anymore.

Tonight is night 12.  I'll post progress in a couple days-

[afeswick]

Good luck! I feel your pain Keira-I've decided to tackle sleeping issues AFTER Christmas. We are all rooting for you

[grace annes mommy]

So many hugs to you! I know this is hard, but I would just keep doing as you're doing. The OT monster can't be escaped sometimes in sleep training, but at some point she's just going to crash and catch up. 

I saw my friend yesterday and she was all out of sorts, had been up with her DD from 1 to 4am.  She's a new, but already very close friend.  I've been tiptoe-ing around as far as offering advice for her situation.  I don't want to overstep my bounds, but I really feel for her and her DD and DH! They must be exhausted. I am just trying to arm myself with advice and support to give her when she is ready.

Keep updating us. Thinking of you.

[Keira]

You're all so sweet for constantly checking in!

Grace Annes Mommy I think it's good that you're holding back on making suggestions to your friend in spite of what you know and your concerns.  It seems this parenting business is so much an individual path we all have to figure out on our own.  I know that for me, I had to come to the realization myself that what I was doing was not going to work.  I had so many people tell me to 'just stop spoiling' DD and use CIO to get her to sleep and I just couldn't do it.  I know you're not advocating CIO, my point is people are so weird when it comes to parenting approaches that you just have to let them make up their own minds on their own time, which is what you're doing--and you're doing even more by gathering information to share with your friend if and when she's ready to hear it from you.  You are a great friend and it makes me smile. 

No major progress here, but no regression either, just hanging in there.  Night 12 she woke 4 times for about 10 minutes each time (most of the time she's crying and rolling around trying to get back to sleep on her own)  Last night (#13) she woke 3 times and was up for the day at 5:00.  At that point, I nursed her and she slept another 80 minutes. Not the best thing to have done, but I was exhausted and not thinking straight and she was definitely going to be up for the day otherwise. 

Anyway, I think I know what the problem is.  So far, I've been focusing on night weaning and hoping that would solve the NWs, but I don't think it's that simple.  THe problem is that DD never fully got the hang of independent sleep, and until she does, she'll continue to wake and ask for help in the night.  (seems obvious, but for some reason it's just sinking in for me now.)  I need to use GW at all NWs, in addition to PD.  I've been forgetting to incorporate GW.

Next week we'll be traveling so I've put sleep training on hold for now (I'm with you Afeswick!). But I think stopping the night nursings is a small step in the right direction, so obviously I'll continue to not nurse.

I have one question about GW (if any of you know and have actually made it this far): At BT, I've been putting DD to bed awake, and she's done fine falling asleep with me sitting next to her.  However, the past two nights, after trying for 5 minutes to fall asleep, DD apparently gave up on sleep, stood up, and walked around her crib chatting.  Last night I got frustrated so stepped outside the room for a minute (during which time DD fell out of crib, oh the guilt, but I won't talk about that now). 

My question: with GW, if your LO decides it's fun to joke around while you're there sitting next to her, what do you do?  Step out of the room?  Ignore her?

many thanks

[koe2moe]

if you want to sit by the crib and dd tries to get your attention, make no eye contact, be consistent, repeat key phrase and stay calm.  I think that's the key whether you are in or out of the room.  At one point, many months ago, I had to lay my head on my arm leaning at the edge of the crib when DS tried to make me smile or something.  But then I found what worked best was not be in the room as it's too stimulating.  And if she has been falling asleep fine by herself, then you could sit further away, that would be a form of GW, or just leave the room before she's asleep. 

Perhaps write out your plan to help yourself see the steps you're planning.  I think with GW, it's very important to have a plan and review every 10 days (or whatever number of days.) 

Have a great holiday.  Relax and you will get some new ideas afterwards!  hugsssss

[Keira]

koe2moe that is a great idea and I will definitely do that.  Thanks!  Now I feel like I have a really good sense of how to approach this.

Thanks everyone, enjoy the holiday

K

[Roseii]

Hun you are doing SO well with the night nursing, well done!! And don't worry my DD started settling independently at 22m FWIW GW didn't work for us in the end, we had to use WIWO, but DD was 22m before we did that, any younger I couldn't handle it never mind her
Have a fab hol xxx

[grace annes mommy]

hope you have a great holiday.

you're work at ending the night nursing is amazing. this is not a small step, that's a HUGE step! i know you're still working on it, but you are heading in the right direction and doing amazing!

Have you read the No-Cry Sleep Solution by Elizabeth Pantley? She has good advice about GW.  My DD is NOT a cold-turkey kind of kid, so I'm always trying to come up with ways of GW everything - from sleep props to bottles and pacis.  As Koe2Moe suggested, it helps to write down a plan, then review and revise. You know your LO best.

[Keira]

Hi everyone, I just want to report that we've made encouraging progress.  DD now wakes only 2x between when she goes to bed at 8pm and 6:30 am.  Though she still cries for about 1-5 minutes, and sometimes it takes her 45-60 minutes to fall back asleep (by herself!) at NWs, it is a huge improvement and I'm sure she will be sleeping through the night in a few months time! 

Grace Annes Mommy: I definitely think the nightweaning was key to improvements in night sleep, just in case your friend ever asks you about this.  Feel free to PM me anytime.

I just want to thank each of you for your positive words of encouragement, I'm sure I wouldn't have goten through those first few immensely hard weeks without you!

Best wishes for the new year!

K

[koe2moe]

That's one good update for the new year!  Hope is in view   Really happy for you, Keira! 

[grace annes mommy]

That's a great update! I hope things continue to move forward for you. 
Keep checking in!

[afeswick]

So I hope things are going well for you! I said we'd tackle sleep issues after the new year...and the sleep has gotton so bad that tonight my DH did WIWO for an hour and a half before our 14 month old calmed down (I had to go next door, I couldn't bear to hear it). So I just got back and apparently our DS is just sitting in his crib awake.  I feel so bad and I want to run in and hug him, but I feel that he would freak out again.  Can someone tell me something to make me feel less of a horrible mom?