Sleep training a toddler - any latebloomer successes?

[afeswick]

Ok, he is asleep.  I just re-read an unrelated post and it said you shouldn't leave your LO to cry alone...but I've tried staying in the room with DS and it doesn't help, so that's why my hubby kept coming in his room every 5-10 min to tell DS "its ok, its just sleepy time, we're just downstairs, we love you."  I'm just worried that DS is going to hate us or have permanent damage.  That's why i could never do CIO, but now I feel like that's what we just did.  I feel tormented.  I guess I'll just go to bed and pray that we are doing the right thing.  We can't keep doing what we were (co-sleeping) because he was waking so frequently, and crawling all over me, sometimes almost choking me, and lately he's been trying to crawl out of bed, but once I let him out he freaks and I can't figure out what he wants.

[Keira]

Hugs, afeswick, you poor mummy, I know it's so so very hard! I will tell you what I've heard and what I know from my own experience but I am a failed BW (as proven by the fact that my 17 month old still wakes me 2-3 times at night), so take it all with grain of salt.  You also might want to start a new thread so that you get a whole bunch of new and more experienced eyes looking at your situation.

If your LO has always co-slept and also doesn't know how to fall asleep independently (without your presence), then you should use gradual withdrawal rather than WI/WO.  I would start by staying next to your son's cot and comforting him with your voice and touch when necessary to calm him down.  Do this at bedtime and at every night waking.  He will be VERY upset because it's a HUGE change to how he's gone to sleep his whole life but as long as you are there reassuring him, he'll be OK. You might not sleep more than 3 or 4 hours the first few nights, so be mentally prepared for some very long, difficult nights. 

I followed a method that's described on Dr. Jay Gordon's website: http://drjaygordon.com/attachment/sleeppattern.html.  I liked his gentle approach.  But it does take a LONG time especially with an older child; I started when my daughter was 16 months and now at 17 months am still working on the night sleep, but things have gotten better.  I think it took a good 2 weeks of really hard nights before I saw any progress.  I took some time off work and that helped.  I don't know how I made it through, I think it was because of the moral support I got here.  On the upside: your son is 3 months younger than my daughter and at this age 3 months is a huge difference developmentally, so you've got that going for you!

Just a note on WI/WO - if your son is crying and truly in distress, don't wait to go comfort him - go in right away and reassure him that he's OK.  But I've been told WI/WO is really only for children who have previously been good independent sleepers.  I don't think one night of controlled crying (if that's what your DH was doing) will damage your son, but it might make the whole process of sleep training longer and harder for you.  Just keep that in mind, be prepared for a few sleepless nights to start, and be prepared to sit with your son through lots of tears while he learns a new way of falling asleep.   

I think the key is to realize that your son is going to cry long and hard for an hour or more at bedtime and at every night waking for the first few days, but as long as you're there next to him comforting him with your voice and touch, he won't feel abandoned. 

I don't know if that was any help at all.  Let us know how you're going, if you have questions I'll do my best to answer them! 

Sending more hugs-

K

[Roseii]

Keira you're an absolute star, well done for your progress that's amazing! Keep up the good work and don't worry if you get regression, you've laid the foundations now
Afeswick I totally agree re doing Gw, cosleeping to wi/wo is a huge leap for your littlun. There will still be crying but you are in them with him every step of the way, repeating your key phrases. Harsh as it sounds don't interact with him too much, you have to be firm that it is sleepy time and not play time. Might also be worth posting your current routine in case that needs tweaking. Xx

[afeswick]

Hi Ladies,

Thanks for responding.  To clarify (before the last 8 weeks or so) DS was sleeping in his crib 85% of the time, though we had to rock him to sleep first.  He regularly woke 2-3 times for a drink and needed to be rocked to sleep again.  There was a brief period of two weeks where after WI/WO we could put him down awake, but we got off track after an illness. That was about 5 months ago!

So what's been happening is that he's given a bottle, then rocked to sleep and goes down pretty well (i.e. doesn't waken the instant he's laid in the crib).  Then for subsequent wake-ups I try not to pick him up, just to hug him, rub his back and tell him I'll stay with him until he falls asleep.  I tell him to lie down, that I'm here for him.  This is going pretty well, unlike Friday night's attempt (which consisted of letting him cry for 5 or 10 min and returning to hug briefly and exit without picking him up, so our version of WI/WO-we tried for an exhausting 3 hours!). 

So standing by his crib, rubbing his back or holding his hand can take him up to two hours to finally fall asleep for good.  He'll fall asleep, but if I stop rubbing his back he'll jump right back up again within a minute or so.  Last night I slept beside the crib on the floor, with my hand through the bars so he could hold it and/or rub his head against it.  He kept popping up frequently to make sure I was still there.  I am pretty exhausted but at least this way he doesn't cry or scream (sometimes I want to though).  And then at 4:15 he woke up yelling, and thrashing in the crib, and even picking him up didn't console him.  We even tried bringing him into our bed (I know, I know, but we were desperate to find out what was wrong). He writhed to get out of your arms, but once you put him on the ground he'd roll and thrash away madly.  We're stumped.  Anyways, I gave him some tylenol (his two upper eye teeth are just poking through, as well as his two upper molars, and his lower left canine gum area is swollen) and my DH rocked him to sleep because by this time I was too tired!  He woke an hour later, and DH couldn't get him back down so up they got at 6:15.  We drove him to daycare at 8:45 and he fell asleep in the car, so clearly a tired boy.

Our routine before all this was:

7:30ish wake and breakfast
8:30 dropped at daycare
12 he'd have a nap, anywhere from 45min to 1.5 hours (would always sleep longer at home with me in the same bed)
5pm we'd pick him up and eat and play
7pm bath, massage, bottle
7:30pm asleep

So he's in his own crib but still not sleeping any more restfully than when in our bed, and quite frankly, neither am I.  I do feel better about not letting him cry the night away, but I don't know how much longer I can cope without sleep.  This waking up screaming thing has been going on the last few weeks too. 

Advise?

[afeswick]

Oops, I meant advice.  I can't believe I just used the wrong word.  And FYI my toddler is very spirited! But so loving too.  Sometimes I get so angry with him and then I feel so bad. 

[Keira]

Wow that sounds really rough.  Gosh, I don't know what to tell you.  My two cents: it sounds like things have not been 100% consistent in general lately due to illness, etc.  I think maybe he's overtired and confused and I would suggest just sitting down and coming up with a plan for how you are going to approach this (see Koe2moe's suggestion earlier - I found it a great idea), and then sticking to the plan come hell or high water for a solid two weeks, whenever you're ready to give it a go.  This should give him enough time to get the message that this is how things will be from now on, and then at least he'll know what to expect.  With my daughter I find when she knows what to expect, things run more smoothly even if she isn't happy about what's going on.

I do think his fits might be related to overtired. 

[afeswick]

Ok, last night he stayed in his crib all night, so that's four nights in a row now that we've managed to keep him out of ours! I think he slept ok-he was in bed and asleep by 7:15pm, and woke at 6:45am, so 11.5 hours which is normal for him.

We did our normal bedtime routine, including bottle and rocking to sleep (took two attempts to get him down into the crib).  He cried out twice between bedtime at 11pm but was back asleep before I could get to him.  Then at 11:45pm he woke yelling again, and flinging himself around the crib.  I tried a bottle but he wanted nothing to do with it.  Chris came and picked him up but couldn't console him, so I told him to take him downstairs to watch hockey to calm down.  Well, by the time he reached the bottom of the stairs he was calm and drinking the bottle, so back up we went, rocked him to sleep and put him in the crib.  Any ideas as to whats going on here? Its a nightly thing now.

So, about an hour later he woke so I went in and now I just have to say "lay down sweetie" and he lays down, and I rub his back or hold his hand.  The rest of the night I had to sleep beside his crib; he woke frequently to check that I was there (apparently did this at daycare that day too)-so when he woke each time I put my hand through the crib to touch him and I gently shhhhed him back to sleep (I think I only did it for about 5 seconds each time).  That seemed to work well, so he never really cried, just whimpered upon waking each time and after seeing that I was there, or feeling my touch, he'd automatically lay back down.  Then he woke at 6:50am crying to get up (not happy and babbling, just wanting to get out of the crib).  Once out of the crib and downstairs he was perfectly happy. 

What do you guys think? My DH isn't thrilled that I have to be there all night, but I told him its better than DS screaming all night and at least two people get some good rest (DH and DS!).   Of course, the last few nights he's been stuffed up too, so maybe that hasn't helped his sleeping.  I don't know.

Where do I go from here?

[afeswick]

Oh, I forgot to mention (and this is exciting)...he didn't have anything to drink from 11:45pm until waking....that's amazing for us!  So maybe it'll become less of a prop. 

[Keira]

Sounds like you're doing amazing!  That is incredible progress in just a few nights.  You're doing the right thing by staying next to his cot all night.  From here you gradually move the mattress away from his cot and do more reassuring using just your voice.  Eventually you move to the hall/out of the room but close enough so he can still hear your voice when you reassure him.  There will be tears at each move.  I don't think sleep training is possible without at least a few tears. 

As for your question about what's going on with the waking and inconsolable fits, I don't know the answer to that.  I wish I knew.  My daughter still wakes about 3 times a night and cries hard like she's in great distress until someone comes to reassure her, I wish I knew what the reason was.  I think the best approach is just stick to what you're doing, be consistent and see if things don't improve in a couple weeks time. 

There are times when my daughter is inconsolable when she wakes in the night, the same as you describe your son doing. She asks to nurse, I tell her that it's sleepy time and she throws a fit, flinging her body around and crying inconsolably, pausing to request an alternative to nursing (like water or apples or bread).  I've decided this is a ploy to get out of the situation she's in because she doesn't like what's going on.  When I say not now, it's sleepy time go back to sleep, she continues her fit with increased vigor.  Kind of a tantrum, so I just try to talk her down calmly but don't try to hold her.  Eventually she lies down, crying out every couple minutes.  Eventually (as in maybe 45 minutes later) she falls asleep. 

Maybe your son is doing the same thing? Protesting the new method? I would stop taking him down or offering him a bottle since you'll only create another prop.  I would just stay by him, reassure him with your voice and your touch (if he lets you) until he calms down.  Since you're there with him he won't feel abandoned and his fits are just his expression of protest.

Of course I could be wrong as we've been doing this drill about once a night ever since I stopped nursing at night over a month ago. (The other night wakings are earlier in the night and therefore easier for her to fall back asleep)

But it does sound like you're making fabulous progress, so chin up.  Good job!

K