Trying to move to EASY from clock watching with 12 week old

[Gpgmum]

Hi,

I am the Mum of a 12.5 week old baby girl, who I think I'd describe as spirited/textbook. The first six weeks we had little routine at all and after that I had started trying to implement a structured routine with specific nap times etc. It worked for a bit, although loosely and gave me some confidence but the past while it has failed more often than worked and I really want to try to implement EASY and in particular help my daughter with daytime naps which are all over the place. I'm looking for some advice on how to get started on EASY and solve my main problems which are 30-45 min daytime naps with a screaming baby on wakening, feeding back to sleep with all problems that involves, not least wind, and in past few days we've had frequent night wakenings and the dream feed has gone wrong, with DD wakening us rather than us her. She is breastfed apart from the dreamfeed and I am now giving a bottle of expressed topped up with formula at the 11am feed. Our schedule today was a bit off as had fed so often in the night but roughly:

Night feeds at 12am - 5mins, 4am - 1/2 hr, 5.30 - 5 mins  (this used to be only 1 feed after the dreamfeed at approx 4am)
Wake 7.45 (used to be around 7am or before)
Feed (not usually that hungry now as fed in the night) (15-20 mins)
Activity usually nappy changing, kicking on the bed while DH gets ready for work (~30 mins)
Sleep - this nap used to work well, a bit of rocking in the crib and sometimes a dummy would put her over in 10 or 15 mins. Now I'm back to feeding to get her over. I know this is wrong thing to do.
Nap only lasting 30-mins, wakes crying at 9.30
I try not to feed straight away again, tried sshpat this morning but it seemed to make her more frantic, totally squirming out of my arms. 15 mins in I gave up and lifted her and brought her downstairs.

On a good day I'd have time to top and tail and change clothes after this nap before feed, but today it was a bottle straight away and she drained 6oz of expressed milk topped off with formula. So feed at 10am.
After this another nappy change, some sitting in her chair looking at toys, back upstairs for 11.30.
Before I could sshpat and settle she had already started crying from overtiredness, I topped up from the breast, she feel asleep and I put her down, she roused a little but went over.
Nap 40 mins, woke crying.
Tried sshpat a while longer, settled in my arms but crying as soon as put down, tried this for 20 mins or so, caved in as crying was frantic, fed from breast, fell asleep at breast, put her down again. Slept 15 mins. Repeat above.
Slept from 1.30 - 2.15
Woke at 2.15 but not crying so I brought her downstairs, she was quite happy to sit on my knee while I had a visitor and only showed hunger signs at 3.15.
Fed 15 mins.
Sat in chair and played in carrycot with hanging toys until 4.30.
4.30 - sleepy signs, again fed to sleep and slept on my lap 45 mins as I couldn't face the settling upstairs again.
5.30 - woke and I got bath ready.
6.15 finished bath, upstairs for bed, fed from breast until 7. I felt like I was totally empty and this feed was not very peaceful.
7 - I put her down, she's quiet now and the room is dark. But not sleeping yet.

I know this looks a total mess. I wasn't feeding to sleep up until few days ago, I thought I had cracked that but I'm really bad at handling letting her cry down, I just can't do it. Where am I going wrong, am I missing all the sleep signs? Am I giving her wrong/not enough/too much activity? I used to think a walk in the pram helped before lunchtime but with the snow we haven't got out which isn't helping. And have we hit a 12 week growth spurt? And how do I handle feeding to sleep if we have?

If anyone has the time to help me try to work out a good 3 hour EASY routine I would be so appreciative. I've always doubted my supply and thought her unsettledness was down to that, together with various relatives advising me to just give her a bottle and all would be ok. I'm desperate to help her into a routine and be settled and happy. She's so great, alert and fun when she's well slept and fed, but I don't seem to be able to be consistent.

Many thanks.

[bluegreenorange]

This will not be comprehensive help but just a few thoughts - and I hope some encouragement!  I always like to know what other people do, as very few are by the book.

First, if you want her day to start at 7 wake her up at 7am.  I know this is just 1.5 hours after the 5:30 feed but I always want to start the day right.  My DS would eat at 5:30am but I still had him up and eating again by 7:15am.

Then try not to feed her to get her to sleep, but I would feed her if she wakes up after 30 minutes.  I hear so much about growth spurts and I haven't quite figured out when the occur. But I would usually feed DS to get him back to sleep after a short nap.

Also, you said yourself you need to be consistent.  I think it beginning consistency there is usually a few rough days.  I remember times with no naps because I was so adamant that he settle himself and not depend on me to be rocked.  You mentioned giving up on Ssh/pat after 15 minutes, the BW recommends 40 before taking a break to feed.  Of course, do what you can handle.  I would always convince myself to go one minute longer.  Or when I thought I couldn't handle it anymore, count to 100 slowly before I could quit.  Gave me something else to think about then what DS was (or wasn't) doing. 

Also, be okay with a 2.5 hour routine some days, or some cycles.  I found they did even out.

I've noticed with my DS, as I've read that 30 minute naps are because he's overtired and 45 minute naps are just a sleep cycle thing. So I had to adjust how long he was awake before.  And if he woke up early from a nap, I would still just let him have 60 minutes awake, and it would just throw of the coordinating clock time for the day so sometimes I would end up feeding at 6pm then again at 7:30pm.

I've always had to hold my DS for his evening nap (after 4pm) and it hasn't affect his ability to fall asleep for his other naps.  I figure it is the first nap he will give up, so if it doesn't affect other things, I just do what it takes to get him rest.

I hope these few thoughts help encourage you.  The big thing is to be consistent - it is so hard, but so good for you LO.

[Chicane]

hi there gpgmum

bluegreenorange has given you some very good advice and pointers. i really only wanted to add a few things.

First take a look at the samples for your age group here http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=164253.0

The average awake time for a 3 month old is 1 hr 15-20 mins moving to 1 hr 20-30 mins towards the end of the month. A 4 months old is 1 hr 45 mins moving to 2 hrs. You are between 3 and 4 month. Its around 4 months that the transition from 3 hr feeding to 4 hr feeding start - however, as bluegreenorange pointed out some days are different and its just a guide your LO may fall into some where in between.

I would start with looking at the samples, getting a copy of Tracy's books, reading through all the FAQs on the boards here. Then start to get the A time to be around 1 hr 15 mins more or less, take it from there. Focus on perfecting your shh/pat technique, it takes time and you may find you need to figure out what works best for you (my DS hated it as described and preferred a gentel hum and soft stroking on the head) You need to try shh/pat for more than 15 mins, you need to be there with her through it. Wear ear plugs it dulls the crying...you are teaching her how to sleep it takes time. If its took hard, if you both get too stressed then let it go, move on to the next things, shorten the next A time. Another trick I liked was to take DS out of the room for a few mins, often it was enough to snap him out of the crying fit to then try again.

Be consistent with your wind down. Make it the same every time...

I hope this helps a bit, keep us posted

xo

[Gpgmum]

Thanks Chicane and bluegreenorange, really appreciate your feedback, it helps me to be determined to carry on trying with easy. We've just had DDs christening weekend so the days were a little different but I watched baby and not the clock and she did just great. But today back at home I got two 1/2 hour naps morning and lunchtime and a longer nap on my lap in afternoon so have some work to do again this week! I've worked on sshpat and actually the getting over to sleep is fairly easy, I'm finding after sleep signs I put her down with lullaby on monitor and my hand just placed on her chest settles her along with a gentle ssh. It's the waking from naps that is so tricky. I've stayed in the room to watch her sleep and when she wakes crying she doesn't seem to open her eyes at all. I was worried room was not dark enough but maybe not. Could it be wind pain or why would babies just wake crying so hard!? She gets through her sleep cycles just great at nighttime. I also find for her catnap more often than not I have to feed and she needs s crucial even for that. Dummy sometimes works, not always. Worried that when I'm no longer breastfeeding how I'll deal with this, surely it will almost be like CIO?

I'm keep you updated and rake s look at the pubplidgdd EASYs

[Gpgmum]

Excuse the poor typing end of last post, should have read DD need a crydown for her catnap also, and I 'm read the published EASYs. Thank you.

[Chicane]

Hi love

Are you planning on stopping breast feeding soon? Do you say this because you are feeding her to sleep? If you are feeding to sleep then that is a sleep prop habit that needs to be broken. I too was a feeder to sleeperer...so I know what its like, so easy to slip into...but you can break the habit.

Don't worry - CIO is when you leave them alone to cry. In BW there is crying (they are babies after all!) but we are there with them offering comfort, never abandoning them.

With the crying out in her sleep does she actually wake up? If not, then just leave her. This is a really common sleep pattern. Some LOs are very noisy sleepers. My DS is 14 months and still has a cry out every night. It lasts less then 2 mins and he doesn't actually wake up...

If she is actually waking up crying hard then it often indicates OT or over stimulation...meaning the previous A time was too long or too much activity.

Go back to basics, start with makig sure A times are age appropriate and your wind down ritual is consistent. Then continue to extend naps as you have been...you will get there in the end

take a look at the samples then post up what a typical day looks like for you...

x

[Gpgmum]

Hi Chicane,

I always go through the "should I give up breastfeeding to help DD settle better". I know the benefits are massive compared with bottle feeding but I've always worried about supply and if she doesn't nap well because of that, so I constantly think should I stop. As well I so crave a routine that just doesn't seem to be coming together when I'm breastfeeding.

Anyway yesterday I was saying getting over to sleep no problem! Famous words! This morning we missed the nap window and DD was awake for 3 hours with 1.5 of those bad crying. She eventually went over feeding to sleep. I'll post last night/today's schedule so far...

E: Dream bottle feed 10.45pm
S: 11 pm
E: woke at 1.45am. Tried ssh pat and a cuddle, didn't work. Fed but only for 5 mins and she fell asleep again easily (is this the place to try a dummy?)
E: Woke 4.45 am. Feed. This would be closer to old-normal night waking time. Fed for 15 mins, back to sleep easily. These night feeds are always easy and she seems to eat a lot, certainly longer breastfeeds than I get in the morning
Awake at 6.30. Nappy change and happy to wait 1/2 for feed
E: 7am (10 mins max)
A: kicking on bed 50 mins happily. Crying again. Might this have been point to get DD back into bed? Instead interpreted hunger signs and fed again another 10 mins
S: Into cot at 8.10. Initially quiet, sucking on hands, rubbing eyes. I played a lullaby and rocked crib. Eyes closing. Then no, crying started, got harder. I lifted her and ssh patted 3 times, for 45 mins. Bad crying the whole time. Eventually I tried to feed. Crying too hard to take it. More ssh patting, in and out of crib. As soon as I calm her in my arms and set her down in crib crying gets much worse. Eventually fed again and she fell asleep at 9.40.
It's now 11.40. Still sleeping. I've trying going in and opening blinds but she's sound asleep. Exhausted I guess but need to wake her to get the rest of the day on track.

We'll see how the rest of the day goes, I'm going to take her out at lunchtime in car and pram to try and get a good sleep.

As for waking crying, she doesn't seem to open her eyes but it's pretty bad crying, not just a moan. And I guess I interpret distress and go in and she senses me and crying gets worse again. Should I really leave her like this for 2 mins?

One last question, when you say start with trying an active time of 1 hr 15 mins, is this time from eyes open to eyes closed, or eyes open to wind-down? Does it inlcude feed time?

Thanks for all your advice and taking the time. Please tell me this will work eventually!?

x

[Chicane]

Hi love

In my opinion stopping breast feeding wont do much to help you with a routine or get you an independent sleeper - these are things that need to be taught. I am going to ask a breast feeding mod to pop over here and give you some more info and support about supply and other things. In the end its your choice and you know what is best for you and your family and whichever option you choose is totally okay. But to be perfectly frank, and forgive me if I cross the line here, I don't think you want to give it up. Simply because you are not sure. My mum always said If you don't know then you know. That is, if you are not sure if you want to do something usually it means you don't want to do it.

A time includes feed, change, cuddles and resettle for next nap. S time is from eyes closed to eyes open.

It would be really handy for you to get a copy of Tracy's books if you can, they are so great to have on hand and have so much info and tips.

you should note that there is a big growth spurt at 12 weeks and the best way to deal with it is to feed more frequently, they usually last a few days (or in hour house a week!)

Check out the samples again http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=164253.0

Aim for 1 hr 15 mins A time. You A time was too long from 6.30am to 8.10am which could be why it was so hard for her to settle...aim also for a 12 hour day so if Lo wakes at 6.30am then bed time is 6.30pm more or less.

In my opinion is totally fine to still be doing night feeds at this age. In fact, its a bit of a myth that babies are sleeping through at this age. Sleeping through is actually defined as 5-6 hours in a row, not a whole night. So, personally, I would continue with the night feeds - however, the ones where she has a quick feed are for comfort and you could try a dummy or shh/pat to get her back down. Obviously, you wont know which NW that is, but over a few days you will see a pattern...

Some people would say wake her to keep on routine but i would be inclined to let her sleep if she has had a tough night or a difficult settling...thats me though, so really its up to your mama instinct...

With the waking crying - I would leave her and see what happens. My son actually screeches out - it can be very disconcerting, but he is not actually awake, its a weird thing that many babies do. So, leave her see what she does, if she wakes and it turns into a 'quick someone's cutting off my legs type wail then go to her (of course!)

And lastly, yes this will work eventually. I promise. You need to be consistent, you need to keep working on your settling techniques, you need have faith in your baby's ability to figure this stuff out. And you need to be patient. In my opinion, you are still in early days and some LOs need a little more help than others to get to sleep. You will get there in the end. We were a mess too, it was hard work, but now i can put my son in his cot fully awake at nap time and he can get himself off to sleep - he is rarely cranky from being over tired (unlike many of his peers) and its such a relief for me. That's not to say we don't have bad moments...we've had early wakings, colds, illness, teeth..the thing is after learning BW I have all these extra tools and skills to fall back on...you will too

x

PS I am going away from 17 Dec until Jan 10. Another mod will take over my posts so you will still have support here. i will try to check in when I can. Don't worry, you are doing so well

[Tay]

Hi there,
Just jumping in to agree with Chicane about stopping BFng. I can give you loads and loads of examples of friends whose babies were FF and had nap/ sleeping/ routine diffs, probably as many as those who BF.

My ones for example: DD just would not sleep AT ALL during the day and was very agitated at night. She would only sleep during the day if she was held, feeding to sleep, for half an hour... until she was 13 weeks old. Then it all went away, she started sleeping 7, then 8, then 9 hrs stretches at night and having better daytime naps, still EBF. When we tried to introduce formula at around 6 months she just refused it, then would get a rash on her face... turned out she was MPI and if I had FF her from the start it would have been worse (and all the crying until 13 weeks was probably due to my eating LOTS of cheese and milk...)
DS, from day one he seemed like a good sleeper, would wake up at night to feed and stright back asleep. 3 hourly, completely dreamy... or so I thought. From around 6 weeks it all went 'the wrong way'.... To cut a long story short: he only STTN after 7.5months.

I would imagine the the relative who is suggesting that FF would help has not BF herself or has not been around BF babies a lot. It is very common for people (and ourselves, don't get me wrong, I remember saying: can someone please just give this child a bottle and give me some peace! More than once!) to think the bottle will be a solution to everything. But you just have to be careful that you're not making the choice to stop BFng for the wrong reasons. If your concern is supply, there are solutions.

That's not to say you can't combine both, BF doesn't have to be all or nothing either- but I would strongly suggest that if you decide to go down that route you do it for yourself and not because someone is suggesting your baby would sleep better or because you're doubting your supply. have you seen these links yet?
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=65905.0
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=178500.0

I don't mean to be preaching, if you really want to stop BF I (and a whole of other mums here) would support you, I just don't want you stopping because you're doubting yourself.

Let me know what you think
xxx

[Gpgmum]

Hi girls,

I agree with both of you that things will not necessarily be any different with FF, it's just that many FF friends have babies who dleep through, on a great routine really early etc. My DD has been really erratic with daytime sleeps even as a newborn and I blamed hunger and my supply for her unsettledbess but I'm less convinced now that the is the case. I've expressed and given an 11am'ish bottle for the last couple of weeks and I still get poor naps and this is after 6 oz so I don't think it's hunger.I also have never leaked which always worried me, but I've read that this is not s good indicator. I express at night before bed and get 3-4 oz which doesn't seem much from both sides. But I guess if DD can take a 6 oz bottle she is getting something similar from me or she would be complaining?! Her feeds have become much shorter and generally only one side now, maybe I should always offer second side? I became so obsessed early on about foremilk/hindmilk and green nappies that I tend to keep on with one side for ages.

In addition I'm not a public breastfeeder but I can manage that if I get s decrnt routine going.

[Gpgmum]

Just to add that the rest of my day was a bit of an overtired, feeding to sleep mess. DD slept for 2hrs 15 this am which I thought would help but every sleep since took a lot of crying and a feed to get over. Seemed like a particularly bad day. Maybe a better night will lead to an easier tomorrow.

Thanks for all your help.

[Tay]

answering on my phone so apologies for not being able to give a more detailed answer- but will do whenever I get a chance.
You're absolutely right about not getting a proper measure of your supply from pumping output or leaks. I never leaked with either of mine and at one stage I actually had an oversupply. Never got anymore than 4oz on the pump either- but would put DS to the breast after pumping and hear him gulping.
I always fed both sided, offered one, burp, same side again then the other side, what happened was that at the start they wouldn't feed much from the second side but it slowly increased. Would you try that?
If you're worried about fore/hindmilk you should try breast compression, there's a link on the BF board with info on it.
Xxx
Ps.: there was a girl on the BF group whose baby slept 10hr stretches from around 7 weeks!!!

[Gpgmum]

Hi again,

I've reading my copy of "secrets of the baby whisperer" again and reading the faqs for an EASY schedule at 3 months. Here's today's EASY which worked a lot better:

Awake 6.50am after one night feed at 3 am which was both sides
E: 7.10
A: playing on bed to 8.10
S: in crib 8.10, self settled with small amount of sshing by 8.30
Slept only until 9.10. I went onto room to help through the waking, tried ssh pat in crib and about 20 mins out but didn't work so gave up and came downstairs. Happy to have top and tail done before feed
E: 10.20, 6oz expressed bottle
A: nappy change only, already tired after bottle
S: overtired crying by 10.50. Three goes at ssh pat and picking up and DD was asleep
Slept 2.5 hrs with no prob
Awake at 13.30
E: hunger signs at 13.50. Fed till 14.45 ion and off, both sides
A: nappy changing and walk in pram
S: fell asleep in pram 15.30. Slept an hour while I visited a friend
E: hunger signs 17.00. Small feed thoug and hard time with fussing on the breast
A: bath 17.45
E: top up breast feed in bedroom 18.30-18.45
S: tried to settle to sleep here but got to 1/2 hr bad crying. Offered 3oz top up as fussing on breast, which was all finished. Settled in 15 mins after this so asleep at 20.00

Was working ok until the bedtime feed which ended up with baby having been awake for over 3 hrs

A couple of questions:

Does it look like naturally a 3.5 hr EASY?
If so how do I make this work in z seven to seven day and how does the last awake tome of the day not end up being too long?
If I want to implement say 3.5 hr Easy and I try to stick to s strict awake time, what to do after a short nap?
Do I always try to only feed at fixed times unless settling has failed after 45 mins?

Confused!

Once again thanks for reading!


X

[Chicane]

Hi love

Before I get on to your questions...

In my experience sleep issues are almost always to do with 2 things, temperament and accidental parenting. I know BF babies who sleep well and others who are terrible. I know FF babies who are the same. If there is one thing I have learned as a mod here there seems to be no rhyme or reason to babies!

I always fed both sides. Same as Tay, first boob, burp, first boob, burp, second boob burp second boob burp. Didn't always get a burp which it fine. You don't always need to get one. There is a very well respected baby nurse in Australia (Robin Barker) who says that we shouldn't get too caught up with the difference between fore and hind milk and that basically we need to trust in our babies more and that the published studies have been so varied and inconclusive. She says the best indication that baby is getting what they need is weight gain, soiled and wet nappies and overall health. It was a relief to hear that and I never gave the milk types a second thought.

So, the routine you posted looks really good to me.
You wont always get a perfect 7-7 day, especially at this age. To make sure that last A is not too long is quite hard, only way I can see is to bring BT forward...or just deal with it till LO gets a little older....we did early BT (6pm) for ages.

If I want to implement say 3.5 hr Easy and I try to stick to s strict awake time, what to do after a short nap?
Do I always try to only feed at fixed times unless settling has failed after 45 mins?

This is not necessarily the BW way - BW is about watching for signs and responding to them appropriately. The routine is meant to be flexible to suit the variables that occur day to day, month to month. I would forget about sticking to exact times and try to be a bit more general about it. Some days LO will be more tired, if Lo has had a hard night, or if there are teeth or a cold, might be hungrier due to a growth spurt, might start to need a tweak of routine...does that make sense? I get the feeling that when one tries to stick to exact times everyday then it can set you up for frustration kwim? if you get a short nap and cannot extend it with shh/pat then you shorten the next A time to compensate...if it goes wrong then do early bed time.

Generally speaking I really think you are doing so well. Its still early days really and you are both still figuring out all this stuff, LO is still figuring out the world! You should be proud of where you are right now. Really.

I am away from 17 dec until 10 jan - my co-mods are going to keep track of my posts and continue to offer you support.

much love
x

[Gpgmum]

Thanks so much for all the positive feedback, I'm going to really focus on just watching I don't get lo overtired and work on my sshpat technique for when it can't be helped. I think I have to realise that my new life as a mum is not as organised as the old one but it's much happier for it. I really like the principles of BW so will keep working on it.

Have a lovely break and thanks.

X