mummy losing her mind, what to try next??

[anjabibby]

DS is 7 months, has STTN about 3 or 4 times only. He was a good sleeper, waking up just once for BF anywhere between 2 - 5 am. Then about 4 weeks ago all hell broke loose. He started to drop his pm CN and so went to bed really tired, then had a few more NWs which I thought must be OT, so we moved him to 2 naps - each about 1 - 1.5hours and he goes down for these without much difficulty. But for the last couple of weeks he has been waking up and refusing to go back to sleep for 2 HOURS. The first time this happened was from 2am - 4am, where he can just cry/fuss//look like he is going to go back to sleep, but then start fussing/crying again.
He is on a 4 hour EASY, has good naps, bedtime routine same everyday, BF before bed - I try and keep him awake though can be very sleepy feed. The first NW (anywhere between 12 and 3am) I will feed him and generally he will go back to sleep within 20 mins or so, but then usually an hour to 2 hours later he will wake up again and then not go back to sleep. On a couple of occasions he has basically been awake since 4 am, and if he hasn't gone back to sleep by 6am - I just get him up. On these days his nap usually starts a bit earlier as he is obviously completely shattered - though I try and not put him down until 9.15 - 9.30 as otherwise the rest of the day is a bit wonky.
I am sooo tired, feeling sick with constant headaches, as I can't nap during the day as DD is up and around. Feel so guilty as she is just plonked in front of the TV for periods where I need to just sit.

He is on solids 3 meals, eats really well, EBF (and I am obviously convinced that my milk is going down due to lack of sleep),
should I stop feeding him at night ? Have tried pain meds re teeth didn't really make any difference. Any other ideas what I can try next??

[~inbalance~]

Hey!  I have a 7mo who is a tricky sleeper too.    What does your EASY look like?  Maybe we can see an area that needs tweaking.  Also, I think teeth might still have something to do with it, even though you've tried meds.  Some LO's don't get that much relief from the meds.  Hopefully we'll be able to help you out. 

[anjabibby]

Hi there,
What we try and stick to looks something like this
Wake up 7 (up to 7.30 if very bad night and he is still asleep!)
E: 7 BF
A: Solids 8 - porridge and fruit/toast
S: 9.30 - 10 (depending on how night was) normally about 90mins
E: 11.15 BF
A: solids 12.30 (chicken/fish puree)
S: 2 pm normally 90mins
E: 3.30
A: solids 5pm (as above with fruit pudding)

Bedtime routine 6pm: Bath, cream, PJs, BF (starts at 6.30 ish)
S 6.45 - 7pm

NWs: This is last night!
11.50 - BF - and back to sleep by 12.30
3.30 - awake, crying/fussing/almost asleep to crying again, until 5.15am - I gave in and attempted to feed him at about 4.30 - not very interested. finally back to sleep at 5.15 until 7.30.

I made a decision a couple of weeks ago to try and reduce the night feeds, so I thought I would feed him once and then not again. We did try a DF - he just wouldn't go onto the breast so we abandoned this.

Overall, it seems like he is getting 13hours of sleep over the 24 hour period, which is a bit less than recommended but not by much. Not sure whether I should cut his naps to 1 hour each, to encourage more night sleep. Just no ideas!!

[~inbalance~]

I don't think you should cut his naps, he is getting enough but any less and he would definitely be OT.  The fussing, crying, trying to sleep sounds like discomfort to me.  I have to run right now but will be back later to see if I can think of anything else. 

[anjabibby]

Thanks for your reply - should I try meds when he wakes up? Also what do you think about the night feeds?
many thanks,
A xx

[~inbalance~]

Often if you give meds once they've already woken it's too late really, because they take a good 20-30mins to kick in.  Have you tried them before bed?  You can try it though and see if it helps.  There have been times where I've given them in the middle of the night and they seem to help once they've started working.

Well, I still feed once a night.     So it's hard to say whether or not you should continue to do so.  Some BF babies still need a nightfeed.  I doubt your LO needs it, it's probably more of a comfort.  I know my guy doesn't need it, but I have been using it to settle, 2 or sometimes even 3 times a night.      We are in the process of weaning feeds but for now I still feed once.  It's your call really.  The longer you continue to feed him, the longer he will continue to wake and the more of a habit it will become.  If you stop feeding him at night, chances are he will start sleeping through sooner.

I think your routine looks pretty good and is similar to what I aim for.  The A time to bed is a little bit long, but I think that is par for the course at this age after dropping the catnap.  Definitely don't cut back the naps any further though, if he is more OT throughout the day he will sleep more restlessly at night.

HTH 

[anjabibby]

I know the A time is a bit long before bed, and he is often OT before bed so has a really sleepy feed before bed - though I do try and keep him awake before going to sleep. After last night - where he woke at 12 - when I fed him and then at 5.30 - when he just wouldn't go back to sleep so I got him up at 6.30, I think I have to stop feeding him.  When do you do the night feed - it is first wake? or do you try and settle him.
I know this is a silly question - but how do you go about not feeding him - we are in this pattern and it is difficult to shift.
What is harder at the moment is that DH does go for babywhispering, just thinks we should let him CIO - and I am just not prepared to do that, so any sleep training I am basically doing on my own...
Thanks for your support - good to know someone else is in the same boat.

[~inbalance~]

What is it with DH's and thinking CIO is the way to go?   Mine will suggest it too.   

I was feeding him 2-3 times up until about 1.5wks ago when I realized I had to stop, at least only feed him once if I was going to do it.  So I stopped feeding at the first wake which was usually between 10:30-12.  Instead I used AP and held and cuddled him to sleep.  I know, it's basically trading one prop for another, but for us I felt like it was ok to do.  The first night he screamed for an hour.  For a few nights after that he still woke but it didn't take longer than 15mins to settle him.  Now he doesn't wake at those times anymore and has been sleeping until at least 2, which is when I feed him right now.  Soon I will stop feeding him at that point too and see what happens.  I'm prepared to feed him at least once for bit longer, but I would like to keep encouraging him to do longer and longer stretches without feeding.  It's pretty much what I did with DS1 too. 

But I do think the sooner you stop feeding him at night the sooner he will sleep through.

There are tools you can use to help settle him at night, are you familiar with either shh/pat or pick up put down (pupd)?  Shh/pat might not be appropriate at his age if you haven't been using it, as it can often be too stimulating for older babies.  Pupd requires a lot of work and determination, but will work if you want him to learn to sleep independently with no props.  Otherwise you can employ whatever method works for you, other than feeding of course.  Holding, cuddling, and rocking will work, but keep in mind they can become props in which your LO will need to sleep.  In our case, I have always held and rocked DS2 until he was almost asleep, but I also always put him down still a bit awake so he learned to settle himself, so I don't consider rocking a prop for us because he doesn't wake and need to be rocked back to sleep.  Hope I'm making sense. 

There is also a pupd forum where you can post your questions or read through the FAQs:
http://babywhispererforums.com/

[anjabibby]

I have been using shush/pat since he was a newbie, and he does go down well for naps using that. I also had to use PU/PD for lengthening naps when we had the 45 mins nap thing when he was about 3 months. At the time though sleeping at night was OK, waking 1 time for a feed and straight back to sleep.
Last night he only woke once a 1am, and of course I fed him and then tried to get him down again, but no he was awake for 1.5hours, then slept til 6.15 - a tiny bit of progress I think.

I do agree that I am going to have to stop feeding him at night, not sure I am quite ready for the PU/PD which I know is what I will have to use. We are also going away on holiday for christmas, so I think I am going to have to stick thi out until after we get back.
Thanks very much for your help - hope you get a full nights sleep soon!!

[~inbalance~]

Probably a good plan to start after Christmas as things will probably be all messed up anyway.    Also, does your DH have any holidays over the Christmas break?  Maybe if he is not working you can convince him to help in some way.  I know you said he thinks you should just CIO, but if you explain to him that this will realistically take the same amount of time and it's gentler for your LO, and it's important to you, maybe he will help a bit. 

Hope things start improving soon.