We need some help. I'm so exhausted!

[~inbalance~]

It's time to ask for help with these NWings. 

We've always had them, F has never sttn, not even close.  It was also so hard to sort through the issues because there were so many, but now at this point it seems the reflux is controlled, the intolerances outgrown, the first 8 teeth are in, and the illnesses are gone (for now), so I've been hoping it would be easier to tackle the NWings and get on track.

It used to be every night was unpredictable, and F would be waking anywhere from 3-6x a night, any time, and would sometimes settle without a feed but generally I've always fed him every 3-4hrs even at night.

Now we've settled into this pattern. 
1st NWing, usually 3hrs after bedtime (between 10-11)
2nd NWing between 2-3
3rd NWing 5:30, which on occasion ends up being an EW if I can't get him back to sleep
up 6/6:30
This is more or less how it goes.  At this point I figured the issues are related to habit, feeding/prop, and OT.  I mean, if he were in pain they would be more random.  Also, he goes right back to sleep when I feed him, so I figure if it were pain or discomfort he wouldn't go right back to sleep or he would wake again shortly after.  But he just goes right back to sleep for about another 3hrs.

About a month ago I stopped feeding at the first waking because it was obviously becoming an issue.  We made some progress, and after a bit he started sleeping longer first stretches, usually about 5hrs.  Then we got hit with mega teething, illness, and the holidays, and I fell back into the feeding trap.

So now I am trying to tackle that first NWing again by resettling without feeding.  Which is doable, I've been managing to get him back to sleep anywhere from 15-30mins the past 3 nights.  But he screams bloody murder while I'm doing it.  This child has a temper, and when he doesn't get what he wants he just freaks out!  Now, I would have thought that after a few nights of not getting fed at that time he'd start sleeping longer.  But he still wakes, and I still have to go and deal with the screaming while I resettle.  Ugh!

Routine wise, it's so hard to get him enough day sleep because he just doesn't nap well.  But a decent day might look something like this:
6:30 up
10 nap 45mins-1hr
2 nap 1-1.5hrs
7:15 bed
So his final A always ends up being long, and if it's been a truly bad day I try to sneak in a catnap, but it's hard because he fights it so bad.

Anyways, I can go on and on and on about our issues....   But I'll start here for now.  Help, anyone?!

[anna*]

Personally, I would just stop feeding overnight at this point. I know it doesn't sound so 'whispery' but at 9 months old I was in the same boat and came to realise that Stan just wasn't going to drop any night feeds of his own accord. It can be confusing for a little one if you sometimes feed them when they wake, but sometimes insist that they go back to sleep without. You KNOW he's going to scream blue murder, so you can brace yourself for it, but it will all be over faster if you go cold turkey rather than trying to phase them out one by one which could take weeks.

[~inbalance~]

Oh Anna, I have thought about that and it makes SO much sense, believe me.  And during the day, when I'm awake and not feeling quite as worn out, I totally believe I could commit to that.  But in the middle of the night, right now I am feeling like I've never felt.  So tired, and just not the same person.  I feel like I will do anything to get him back to sleep so I can go back to bed.  I know it makes no sense, to drag the issues out, because in the long run I'll just continue to get minimal sleep as opposed to if I can get him sleeping better soon then so can I.  But, after this many months with hardly any decent stretches and so much crap sleep, I just don't believe that doing it that will have him sleeping better in a short period of time.  I also don't want to start that and then give up halfway through, which will just send further mixed messages. 

F has so much more screaming power than T ever did, and I'm just terrified of having to deal with it, ALL night long for who knows how many nights.  I am so tired, and DH will try to be helpful but if he goes in it always makes things worse.  F screams and screams.  Cold turkey methods always worked with T who was very textbook.  He would get the message quickly and things would improve after only a day or two.  But with F, everything is different.  He has this touchy streak.  And his screaming, it's like some kind of dying animal!!  If I knew that after 2 days I'd see some improvment I might be more inclined, but somehow I don't believe I would.   

At least at this stage in the game, T was sttn sometimes and doing long stretches consistently, so there was hope for us.  I almost feel hopeless with F.

I totally hear what you are saying though, and it has crossed my mind.  I will have to put some more thought into it.  All my tricks with T have not proven to be very useless with F, lol.

[anna*]

((((hugs)))) does he take a bottle? Could you do the old 'watering down a bottle' trick?

[~inbalance~]

Nope, he's EBF.  I don't even think I can reduce minutes as a full feed for him is already a matter of minutes.    That's why it's so easy to fall into the feeding trap.  I know that when he wakes, I could feed him and be back in bed in under 10mins, and be guaranteed another 3hrs sleep.   

*sigh* I feel as though I need to do what you are suggesting, it's just so hard to face the day on no sleeping knowing I've got the two of them to take care of.  At least when I just had the one I could get a nap in, and T would nap with me if I really needed the sleep. 

I was so certain I would have all the know-how to get my second child sleeping better at a younger age, and it turns out he's a way worse sleeper than my first was! 

Maybe I should have posted this in props.  I guess too, I'm confused as to why he is still waking even though for 3 nights now I've not fed him at that first feed.  Last time I did this within 2 nights he started sleeping straight through until 1 or 2am.  Maybe he needs more time?

[anna*]

Stan was exactly the same - fast feeding, was just too tempting to do it and get back to bed rather than an hour of screaming. I knew I had to take action though when he actually started ADDING IN MORE feeds.

If it helps you to know, once I dropped the feeds he was sleeping through 12 hours within a week. I think I knew he was EBF, but I guess was wondering if he took a bottle of EBM once in a while. If he did, you can water down the breast milk.

((((hugs))))

[~inbalance~]

Did he scream the house down while you were doing it?  That is my fear.  The hours of endless screaming. 

Another thing too is that F is so used to being fed so often, is it mean of me to just make him go 12hrs?  I mean, like I said T was consistently sleeping longer stretches, so he kinda did it on his own, and because he was so easy going it only took a little push from me to stretch him out.  I've always fed F 3-4hrs around the clock, ALWAYS, except for the odd time where he's gone up to 5 or 6hrs.  I guess that's why I was thinking of taking a gentler route. 

I am trying to psyche myself up for it though!

[anna*]

For the first two nights I did a dreamfeed, and then dropped it after that. I was scared of S being hungry but as DH said to me at the time, a) he's not going to waste away and b) hunger fades. So I just kind of accepted that yes, he may be hungry, but that's not the end of the world. There's learned hunger, right? If you always have a snack at 3pm, you'll learn to be hungry at that time in anticipation. I knew he didn't need those feeds, even if he was hungry, iykwim.

The first night was pretty brutal, but for me I could always cope with thing sbetter if I knew I had a plan. The second and third nights were better and by the fourth night it was just a couple of quick resettles.

[elf]

Agree with Anna, trying to stop some feeds while keeping others is confusing.  At 9 months he will be fine without the food.  The way I did it with DS at 7 months, when he showed no signs of doing it on his own and often increasing the odd night feed, was set up a mattress in his room to begin with.  The first night when he woke at 11pm I fed him a full feed.  This meant that when he woke the next times at around 3am I 'knew' it wasn't hunger so I stayed with him until he fell asleep.  He was angry and at the same time finding new skills to resettle without the milk.  I held his dummy in his mouth for him but he still cried/screamed with the dummy in his mouth for almost 2 hours that first night before he fell asleep.  I stayed with him and kept repeating, 'back to sleep'.  I had to wake him in the morning at 7am.  Then I got his usual feeds into him during the day which meant I was confident to tackle night 2.  Same thing, camped in the room until he woke and did the same thing.  Second night took less time, 3rd night even less, the 4th night I just popped the dummy in and he fell back to sleep straight away.  He was still swaddled at 7 months so I was happy to pop the dummy in (while I was still night feeding the dummy didn't work) then unswaddled him and taught him to use his lovey and re-plug his own dummy and that was that, no more night feeding and 11.5 hours/12 hour nights with the ability to re-settle.  All done in 4 days, then the unswaddling part.  Once you start and get through that first night it gives you motivation to continue because you don't want to go through all of that to stop the following night.  I found it tough because DD1 slept through without me needing to do this so just kept waiting til DS did it, but he didn't show any signs that he was going to.  In fact the times that your DS is waking are quite typical times of coming out of important sleep phases - so that first NW is him probably stirring from his deep sleep phase so he rolls over and wakes and realises he needs to resettle, so you feed, then the next time is quite another common time to stir, as is 5.30am as they come into that light sleep phase - exactly what my DS was doing...

Posted at the same time as Anna, so yes, did the same as Anna (although not a DF because he woke on his own at 11pm anyway).  If you saw the size of my guy, there's no way he's fading away.  He's 16 months now and 14 kilos and I knew at 7 months he didn't need the calories...

[~inbalance~]

It's funny on these kinds posts because already know exactly what you're both saying, it's not new information, just sometimes you need to hear it again. 

So should I feed him at that first wake then or no??

I'd love to stick a mattress in his room (did that with DS1 on several occasions before we moved!) but definitely no space here!  So stuck in the rocking chair.  Gosh I wish I had one of those comfy gliders or a recliner in there. 

Yes, I have a feeling the screamfests will be hours long.     Going to have to talk to DH about what he can do to help get me some sleep.

[LucySol]

i had to go cold turkey on nightfeeds too and yes D screamed blue murder too.But i had to tell myself she wasnt in pain she was just mad and that helped.i was still doing a DF at this point tho so i knew she wasnt hungry.i got rid of that after id tackled the NW.The first 3 nights were bad but it did get easier by the 4th. x

[LucySol]

posted at the same time.id do a DF so he isnt properly awake as others said it may confuse him to get fed some wake ups and not others xx

[kayra]

maybe during the day before the night you're going to put this plan in motion DH could be on extra duty so you get some good nap time, that way you'll be a bit more rested before you tackle the NWs.

[elf]

I fed at 11pm when he woke for the first night only then cold turkey after that.  I don't think he will need a DF at 9 months.  So if it were me, I'd try stopping all feeds so there is no confusion.  But like PP said, a DF is when he isn't awake properly so I guess it's whether you think he is genuinely hungry or not.  I found that DS would feed as though he was hungry but it was more like that's how he new to go back to sleep again.  It really was as quick as 4 nights once I committed to it.  I made sure I slept during the days so I wasn't tempted to feed the following night due to tiredness.

Posted at same time as PP... Personally I found it easier just to do it myself and not take turns with DH because then there was consistency with the settling technique rather than DH's version vs my version. 

[~inbalance~]

We never did a proper DF, I just always fed him when he woke which was often during the time of the DF anyway.  So I should still do that then for a few days I guess?  

It sounds so easy in theory to have DH help more during the day so I could sleep, lol.  It always seems like I'm needed for something!  Even when he is here I end up doing everything for the kids, and then on the weekends there's always chores, housework etc. that needs to be done so there never seems to be any time for rest.    And of course TODAY he is gone ALL day, fishing.  (don't even get me started!), so it's not like he can help me today so I can nap and start tonight.  Then I'll have tomorrow, and then he's back to work on Monday so will be useless once again.  

Sleep during the day, that's funny!