Author Topic: I need a pep talk here.....  (Read 3935 times)

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Offline *Liz*

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I need a pep talk here.....
« on: January 08, 2011, 18:53:58 pm »
I'm frustrated with Ms feeding - I am still having issues separating the E and the S - she is still a very distractable feeder with DS all around.

She really doesn't feed well until she is tired. She will nap independently but it is a bust short nap everytime unless I feed her first, and feeding first means BF to sleep.

She BFs to sleep at bedtime everynight, and I honestly have no idea how to stop her.

I'm ready for the night feeds to fade away, and I know they won't with the BF association. TBH she doesn't do too badly for feeds at night - usually 2 but sometimes 1. If she wakes early I resettle without a feed.

I can't spend all day in dark quiet corners with DS around.

I guess I just know life would likely be easier on a bottle now, and I feel trapped that she doesn't take one, and trapped by her MSPI and need for neocate (which she rejects).

It is almost time to return to work so all these issues are amounting to a big mess. I can return on the breastfeeding protocol which is amazing (2 20 min express breaks a day plus no nights, weekends or long shifts!!). But I have hardly pumped with M and I'm sure I won't be able to pump enough for this current crazy distractable snacking pantomime.

Can someone sort me out please????  :-* :-* :-*

Offline anna*

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Re: I need a pep talk here.....
« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2011, 19:16:17 pm »
What if you feed her while she's sleeping but wake her up before you put her down?





Offline ~Emma~

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Re: I need a pep talk here.....
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2011, 19:19:13 pm »
Or feed her when she's sleepy waking from a nap?  I know the problem is getting her to take a long nap but this is when D feeds best on the offchance she's napped long and I wake her to feed, just quickly latch on in a sleepy state and befoe she knows it she's almost emptied one side. Again, entirely reliant on those long naps....

 


Offline clazzat

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Re: I need a pep talk here.....
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2011, 19:26:12 pm »
Give us an "L"; give us an "I"; give us a "Z"... :D

You've done really well to get this far, with all the issues that she has had, and you should be really proud of that accomplishment for a start.  They all go through distractable phases, and it is a real pain with an older sibling around.  How many feeds are you doing a day?  Perhaps you could try cutting down the number of feeds to see if perhaps being hungrier will make her concentrate a bit more.  Alternatively, will she feed if you cover her head?  I know a lot of them don't, but if she will let you then you can block out a bit of the stimulus and it might help her focus.

As for the feeding to sleep issue, can you try just rousing her a little before you put her down - not so that she is awake, but to disrupt her sleep cycle a little so that she has to resettle herself?  Sometimes it can be that simple to deal with a feeding to sleep association.  I'm not sure whether you would find it easier to start with naptimes or bedtime - I guess whichever it is easier to put in the time to resettle her if she doesn't settle herself.

As for pumping, you can pump several times through the day and add it together before you freeze it - you can probably build up more than you think you can that way.  And she will get used to the bottle if she doesn't have a choice.   Lots of information about pumping here: http://www.kellymom.com/bf/pumping/pumping_decrease.html

And big (((hugs))).

Offline newmummy82

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Re: I need a pep talk here.....
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2011, 21:10:55 pm »
No advice other than feeding in dark quiet room which doesn't sounds possible for you :-( Maybe reading a book to her while feeding and trying to get her to look at it a bit when she has finished feeding?
Neocate is yucky so I've no idea how any babies drink it!

Sorry, completely off topic, but just wanted to ask you Liz, do you work for the NHS and if so what is this breastfeeding protocl that sounds so fantastic!

Offline Tay

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Re: I need a pep talk here.....
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2011, 21:30:18 pm »
Don't despair! It will all work itself out, trust me. I've been there... The whole 'going back to work' clock is your worst enemy, try not to think about it too much (if possible). I remember with DD I was convinced (and was told by the HV) that I would not be able to return to work if things continued as they were with her not taking the bottle. It all got sorted on the last week before I was due back! Seriously! So, let's just try to divise a plan to make it work.
Couple of questions:
- as pp asked: how many feeds a day are you doing at the moment?
- when you say she doesn't take the bottle: can I assume you have already tried EBM?
xxx


Offline *Liz*

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Re: I need a pep talk here.....
« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2011, 21:38:09 pm »
What if you feed her while she's sleeping but wake her up before you put her down?

Nope - she wouldn't go down - she would treat it as a 'nursing nap' even if it were only a matter of mins and get a second wind. She would happily go down in the cot but would just roll, tumble, sing and eat her cot bars for AGES. Easily 1hr plus.

Or feed her when she's sleepy waking from a nap?

Yes - that does work - but she would have short napped due to hunger and will then feed beautifuly. Or feed for as long as she HAS to and as long as J keeps himself out of trouble. He really is a bugger if I am BFing M. That is how the feed to sleep thing started - as I would feed M after J went down for his nap and then put her down for hers. But after 3 days of short naps she really needs a few long ones as she is getting very OT....

How many feeds are you doing a day?  Perhaps you could try cutting down the number of feeds to see if perhaps being hungrier will make her concentrate a bit more.  Alternatively, will she feed if you cover her head?

SO variable on the number of feeds. But basically 3-4hrly really, perhaps a bit longer for the late afternoon as after a BIG feed pre nap at 2.30pm she will go until her bedtime feed at 6.45pm. It only gets to lots of feeds if I try and feed her in active A to avoid feeding her before sleep. If I just feed before S it is a simple 4 BFs a day plus 2 NFs (no DF).

Definately would NOT feed with her head covered. She would stop and eat the cloth instead!!

As for the feeding to sleep issue, can you try just rousing her a little before you put her down - not so that she is awake, but to disrupt her sleep cycle a little so that she has to resettle herself?

I have always done this - you kind of have too with a belly sleeper as you have to turn them and plonk them down. She always stirs and finds a comfy spot when I put her down. I almost always detach her once she is done as well and she lets me do this unless ahe is still hungry. Then goes straight down. I guess this is why it is not a true prop - a sleep association (especially at night) - but not a true prop. My thinking has always been that if it were a true prop she would not nap for 2+hrs, and wouldn't do a 4-7hr stretch at night (the 7 is rare, unfortunately). If anything I have a 'sleep in mamas arms' issue, rather than a 'suck to sleep' issue.

No advice other than feeding in dark quiet room which doesn't sounds possible for you :-( Maybe reading a book to her while feeding and trying to get her to look at it a bit when she has finished feeding?
Neocate is yucky so I've no idea how any babies drink it!

Sorry, completely off topic, but just wanted to ask you Liz, do you work for the NHS and if so what is this breastfeeding protocl that sounds so fantastic!

She would eat the book I would imagine!!, and yep, neocate is just gross!

Yes - I do work for the NHS - I haven't seen the BFing protocol myself. I only know what my manager told me as to how it relates to my usual job. I would get a 20 min am and pm nap to express - plus somewhere private to do it and a fridge to store (neither being very hard in a hosiptal, of course). But I usually do 13 hr on-calls and night on a rota basis, and I would not go back on the rota while I was still feeding as they are not allowed to give you shifts that would be damaging to the BFing relationship. I will be honest here and say the fact the protocol is SO good is a big reason to continue as it will give me so much more time at home with my babies.

- when you say she doesn't take the bottle: can I assume you have already tried EBM?

Yeah - I've tried EMB - but not consistently and not for a while. I haven't even tried a bottle in 2+ mths if I am honest  :-\. She would suck a few and then chew it last time I tried. I'm sure she WILL find a way (either a bottle or sippy) as she does like her milk. But  my MUm is caring for both kids when I work and I am getting a certain amount of pressure to 'fix' it all before I return.

You are right though - most of this spin out is return to work based. I actually think I would not be all that bothered if that were not looming. I would even continue to feed before a nap and see if the issue resolves itself as she takes more solids.

Offline Vicku

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Re: I need a pep talk here.....
« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2011, 22:34:34 pm »
Hey Liz,

Huge {{{hugs}}} from me! Seems like you have a lot on atm with work starting soon and all.
I have to totally agree that you have been and are doing such a wonderful job with M and should be very proud of yourself! :D

I hope I'm not out of line here saying this :-\ but to me it seems like you're giving yourself additional stress by putting pressure on yourself to change her feeding pattern. Fair enough, she's not doing a "perfect" EASY and you're right that there may be (now or on the future) some sleep association issues by feeding her right before sleep, BUT as you say she feeds well when sleepy before a nap, and then takes a good nap. Sleeps quite good at night for her age, sometimes very good. I'm thinking that maybe this is just what works for her ??? I may be wrong but just wanted to put these thoughts out there. If she was waking every time she was coming into light sleep needing BF back to sleep then I'd see the need to change things, but if what you're doing is working for her (and you) then IMO it is fine to do it this way. You're listening to her needs and what works best for her in the situation you're in, and that is true BWing anyway ;) :) All babies are different and have different needs as we know, and it really does sound like you've done the very best for little Megan and have followed her cues and have found a way to make things work, even with a crazy little toddler running round ;) Then again, if I'm wrong and you really do feel that there is a need to change this, I apologise for opening my big mouth.

I was also thinking that getting her on a bottle before you return to work is a big thing for you, and trying to do too much at once is maybe overwhelming you a little and that's why you feel so frustrated and stressed? Maybe you need to do a bit of prioritising and decide what is most important right now so you don't do your own head in too much sweetie. Perhaps it is more important to work on M taking a bottle and see if you could get a pumping regime going. Do you have a decent pump? I don't blame babies for refusing Neocate :-X so it is probably not going to be easy to get her on that and maybe worth working on the pumping instead? How about a galactagogue (if she can tolerate it?) to help with milk production and getting a few pumping sessions in? I know it's had with a toddler around but maybe you could try handsfree pumping? Then you could read to J at the same time.

Another thing to bear in mind is that once you are back at work some naps will naturally happen without you there and the BF to sleep will partially stop then anyway and things may work themselves out. It just seems there are so many changes coming up that things might change many times still without you having to 'fix' things. Again I do apologise if I've overstepped the line by saying these things but you helped me so SO much over on CRC when Sienna was a newborn, and I just felt I had to say this in case it does help you. I know how easy it can be to feel that you have to do things 'right' and it can sometimes make us focus too much on an issue cos we feel we have to do it 'the right way' (with routine etc.), but really you are doing so so well by the souds of it and I'd hate for you to feel more stress and worry than necessary :)
Saying that, I'm here with support and whatever help I can give, whatever you decide you want to do :)

:-* PS. I like the sound of that BF protocol!
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Offline Tay

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Re: I need a pep talk here.....
« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2011, 22:46:20 pm »
In that case... I'll tell what I would do, not sure if it would work for you.
I would probably start pumping (as of NOW) and try to offer the bottle of EBM before bedtime (or have someone else attempt to do so) everynight, for a while, if she doesn't take it then you offer the breast. (the only thing about this is that you might end up throwing a load of BM away... :( ), but she might just take it out of the blue, you never know...
I would also offer some EBM in the sippy with meals (are you giving her water for mealtimes?).
Could you also get your mum to come a couple times to try to put her down for a nap during the day to 'test' how things would be, even if she needs to use some APOP. At the end of the day I'm sure they'll work each other out, but would be good to do a trial run of other props that might work, iykwim (this is mostly for your mum's peace of mind to know that everything will be ok when you're working).
What do you think?
xx


Offline ~Emma~

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Re: I need a pep talk here.....
« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2011, 22:54:43 pm »
Aw Liz ((((hugs))))) I so get you on how hard it is feeding a distractable monkey feeder when there is a spirited whirlwhind running around. I swear B knows he can get up to more mischief when I'm feeding, either that or he becomes super clingy. I dont know whats worse.

 I agree with Vick, there is no need to put pressure on yourself to do things 'right.' Cut yourself some slack, you have done a stand up job honey and these things work out because they have to. A tab glib I know and not particularly helpful but ((((hugs)))) all the same.


Offline ~ Vik ~

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Re: I need a pep talk here.....
« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2011, 03:17:18 am »
You've gotten fantastic advice so far, but I wanted to add loads of (((((hugs))))) and support for you :-*  (and also thinking that that protocol is amazing!)
D ~ dairy, egg, peanut/nut and mustard allergies
Proud to have breastfed for over 24 months!


Offline LizzieN

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Re: I need a pep talk here.....
« Reply #11 on: January 09, 2011, 03:31:06 am »
Liz I was thinking the sippy thing too, apparently a lot of breast fed babies do well on straw type sippies rather than the teat type ones?  Might be worth a shot.  Even just put a little BM in at first and put some water in too, so she is used to it being "Milky" but you aren't wasting much milk if she refuses??
Hugs to you honey, I would totaly keep breastfeeding for that protocol, sounds like a good balance between both worlds xx


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Offline *Liz*

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Re: I need a pep talk here.....
« Reply #12 on: January 09, 2011, 10:51:57 am »
Vicku - I don't think you are out of line at all. I have actually thought that I ought to just continue with what I am doing so many times as it does work. I don't really see many signs of major prop dependence at this point at all - it is an associations I FEAR rather than one that has happened. She often gets very unsettled from about 4/5am onwards, but I think that is often teeth or tummy related. And anyway - I don't feed her back to sleep - I feed her once and then of she wakes after that I resettle without.

Last night was 'classical Megan' - asleep at 6.30am on the boob, woke at 12.20ish and BF, then woke at 4am and BF, then woke every 45 mins until 6 am when she woke for the day. Just squirming about and couldn't get comfortable. I then tried to BF her at 8.15am and she was too distracted - it was 4hrs since the last feed but she had had some fruit and water for solids by then. She then wanted to feed to sleep at 9.30am, but I got her down without the feed. Obviously she will short nap.

So the nights are likely reflux/ MSPI rather than prop I think. She couldn't do 6 hr stretches if it was a BF prop would she??

I do agree she will find a way when she is in daycare with my Mum. She is a very adaptable baby and I know they always do  :).

But THANK YOU for being prepared to say all of that. I appreciate the honestly - and I do appreciate the challenge to the 'norm' - I couldn;t agree more that true BWing is following a pattern that works for your family and respects the individual circumstances of each baby.

And BF babes ARE monkey's  ::) :P ;D

Pumping - I was planning on pumping at 9pm from today onwards as I never really feed before midnight anyway. Do you think that one session will give me enough to 'play' with? I don't mind the waste as we try as my milk doesn't freeze well anyway. It sours - I think I have that lipase excess thing. I will try the bottle once a day and a sippy with meals - that is a really good idea.

I definately could get my Mum to put her down for a nap or 2 to get them used to each other.

Do you think I will be able to pump enough on a day by day basis to make enough milk for her or do I need to look at overcoming this lipase issue and storing some?? I have a medela swing and I used to be able to pump 4-8oz for a missed feed with J with it. I could look at hiring something more efficient if needed though. I know she will need a decent amount of milk as she is on such a limited diet ATM due to her intolerances.

Offline ~Emma~

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Re: I need a pep talk here.....
« Reply #13 on: January 09, 2011, 11:05:13 am »
 I too have milk that doesn't freeze well and goes sour very quickly after pumping. Apparantly the trick is to heat it to scald to deactivate the lipase enzymes.

 http://www.kellymom.com/bf/pumping/lipase-expressedmilk.html

I have never done this and now just tend to pump as I need it. The result has inevitably been giving her no bottles now as I find pumping a huge PITA. I'll be in the same boat as you in a few months!


Offline Tay

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Re: I need a pep talk here.....
« Reply #14 on: January 09, 2011, 21:27:32 pm »
Hey there!
Pumping - I was planning on pumping at 9pm from today onwards as I never really feed before midnight anyway. Do you think that one session will give me enough to 'play' with? I don't mind the waste as we try as my milk doesn't freeze well anyway. It sours - I think I have that lipase excess thing. I will try the bottle once a day and a sippy with meals - that is a really good idea.
I would say you would have enough to 'play with' with just one pumping session if the idea is to try the bottle everynight. But it depends on how you get on the pump.
If not a lot, maybe you can do an initial 2 or 3 sessions before starting with the bottle/ sippy attempts.


I definately could get my Mum to put her down for a nap or 2 to get them used to each other.
That would be great! For the three of you to get more settled (or maybe just the two of you ;) you and your mum!). I think sometimes the tension comes from not knowing what it's going to be like rather than actually it being hard, iykwim. Practice runs help.

Do you think I will be able to pump enough on a day by day basis to make enough milk for her or do I need to look at overcoming this lipase issue and storing some?? I have a medela swing and I used to be able to pump 4-8oz for a missed feed with J with it. I could look at hiring something more efficient if needed though. I know she will need a decent amount of milk as she is on such a limited diet ATM due to her intolerances.
I would also try to store more, at least for the first couple of weeks when you're back. The last thing you want happening is you feeling like if you pump an oz less while you are at work that your DD will be hungry the next day.
I would say in two weeks back you'll have got the hang of it and will know how much is needed, but until then it's best to have extra.
xxx
Tay