Good naps gone bad and night wakings. Would someone be able to comment on my EAS

[Gpgmum]

Hi all,

I have a 4.5 month old DD, who is now bottle fed after being EBF and then combination fed up to just over four months. Thanks to the brilliant advice I've gotten on here we were able to extend naps and it looked like they were starting to extend themselves naturally. The morning nap is still good but the second nap has gone totally wrong again, and our nights are so erratic, no two nights are the same. I don't understand the nights, we never seem to make any progress towards pushing through a bit further, it's all over the place. I'm just getting used to bottle feeding and am trying a 4 hour EASY. She can wait for the bottle ok, give or take 5-10 mins. I was working towards a 2 hour activity time and that seemed ok but then I started to think she was undertired and pushed to 2hr15. That doesn't work either. Here is a quick summary of yesterday's EASY. She settles well to sleep on her own, likes a short winddown and doesn't have any props. As well as erratic nights we have very early wakings, around 5.45 - 6. She babbles for a while, is not hungry so I don't feed to 7am, but we're all up anyway, and so I have to start the first nap a lot earlier than I'd like to make the day work as 12 hours. We seem to always have an early bedtime.

So:

Awake at 6am, babbled in cot until we all got up at 6.30
E: 7am (never very hungry here, maybe 4-5oz)
A: Awake until 8.15
S: settled in couple of minutes at 8.15. Slept 1hr 30 until 9.45
A: Awake at 9.45 and played until feed time
E: 11 am - 6.5 oz bottle
A: 2 hrs - kept her awake until 11.45, then quick windown and asleep in few minutes
S: only slept 50 mins
A: 12.45 walk in pram to see if I could extend nap, didn't work, awake but yawning the whole time
E: 2.45 6oz bottle
A: no activity to speak of, straight to bed
S: 40 mins, woke crying at 3.30
A: played but not in good form until bath at 5.30 and bottle at 6
E: 6pm bottle 6 oz
S: asleep for the night at 6.30, exhausted. I tried for another quick catnap at 5, but didn't work at all
E: Woke herself crying for next bottle at 10.30. Took 5 oz. Awake for 25 mins
S: woke at 2.30am, fed a 4oz bottle, fell asleep during it.
Woke at 5.45. this morning,

This is one of our typical days, today looks like it's going exactly the same. But following the same 10.30pm bottle routine she either wakes at 2.30am or 4am. Why the huge difference? It doesn't seem to matter if we wake her for the dreamfeed or do it in her sleep. Majority of the time she is awake looking for it.

What should I do at 2.30am? Always feed? So far I have and then she doesn't require anotehr feed to the morning. But waking and feeding at 4am makes not a jot of difference to the early wake up times.

I'm really confused. There are a few issues I don't understand:
- early wakings - would really love our day to start closer to 7am
- erratic night wakings - why the big difference?
- 2nd nap - am I allowing too long of a nap in the morning (1 1/2 hrs?). I decided I wasn't going to wake her from sleeping, because if I do and the rest of the day goes wrong then she really won't get enough sleep.

Thanks ladies for all your wonderful advice so far, I hope there is something I can tweak!

[Jiinx]

Hi sweetie!
 Does she have reflux? Does she only wake once at night after the bottle feed at 10?

 Considering the fact that she can do 2 hours and 15 minutes for the first A...I wouldn't be surprised to say that she could probably do 2 hours and 30 minutes for the second? What do you think?

 I don't know the night waking mysteries... I know some of their OT wakings would be in the early night..and the early mornings. If she wakes in the middle of the night, could she really be hungry? Is she getting most of her calories during the day?

Your first nap length is fine. It should be 1 and half hours. She needs 2 naps of 1.5 hours and one catnap at this age. No cutting needed

What do you think?
sarah

[Gpgmum]

Dear Sarah,

Thanks for replying, sorry it's taken me a while to get back to you, have been struck by the winter vomiting bug, not nice. DH has taken off work to look after DD and she has been napping really well! 2 1 1/2 hr naps and a 30-40 min catnap past two days. Yes we only have one night waking after the 10.30 bottle but the time varies a lot from 2.30 to after 4. Since I'm very new to bottle feeding wasn't sure how to handle the amount but have cutdown from 4oz to 3 and hasn't affected wakeup, in fact she is never very hungry for her first bottle of the day. So does this imply I should try to wean the nightfeed altogether? Bit scared to as she is not guzzling all her daytime bottles so may still need the calories. She will be 5 months next week. Still dealing with a 6 am wakeup most mornings, would love an extra hour!

[Jiinx]

Hi there! So sorry you've been ill Glad she's been resting well

Since I breastfed, I don't know anything about quantities! I don't know what's a normal amount of ounces - day or night I wish I could be more helpful. I do know about the trepidation of weaning night feeds... It's tough.

Before you embark on it, would you like to post on Bottle feeding?

In terms of EASY...did you want to post your routine? Is 6 am an EW or is she getting more than 10.5 hours of sleep?


Does she have reflux?

[Gpgmum]

Hi again,

No, no reflux. There maybe was a little in the early days when I was breastfeeding but never bad and no sign now. Yes I'll post on bottle feeding I think and in meantime here was yesterdays easy which led to a 5.30 am early waking today!

Awake 6am
E: 7oz bottle
A: 2hrs 15 mins altogether, down at 8.15
S: 1hr30
A: until feed
E: 6oz bottle 11 am really hungry for it
A: up for another 2hr 15 altogether, down at 12
S: 1hr, up at 1pm
A: walk in pram until 2.30
E: 6oz bottle at 3pm. Thus is where sleep and eat start to clash as down to sleep just after bottle. But she always self settles now so isn't falling asleep on the bottle
S: slept 1hr 10 up at 4.20pm
A: playing until bath at 5.45
E: bottle at 6.15, I know this isn't four hours but she can't stay awake now for the four hr bottle at 7 can she?
S: sound asleep at 6.40pm

Her sleep was pretty fretful until dreamfeed bottle, had to go and ssh a few times. Woke her for the bottle at 10.30pm, which she took all 7oz of. Back to dleep by 11pm no prob.
Woke at 2.30am. Took 3oz
Woke at 5.30 am. Not hungry just wouldn't go back to sleep, wanted to play.
Today this seems to have led to a 1hr 30 min first nap and a 2hr 15 2nd nap! Catching up on night sleep!?

Another question. Before her bath I give her nappy off time and she loves kicking about on playmat with clothes off, in fact she is very energetic, a bit hyper even. Is this too close to bedtime and causing restless sleep? She enjoys it so much and has really helped with tummy time.
Also I guess last night should not have fed at 2.30 am, prob caused the very early wakening? Does anyone have any experience with the so-called core-night-method?

One last question, her feeding is always nearly on a feeding schedule now, day and night, I never get the longer stretch I expect at night. I feel like I have accidental parented my way into this but I don't know how!

Thanks again.

[Jiinx]

Hi there!
 thank you for your EASY! it really helps us figure out her days and what kinds of A times she'd rather.

 Has she always been on the high side of A? My daughter was similar to this - except it took me forever to figure it out. I'm just wondering if her first A time of 2 hours and 15 minutes lead to a 1 hour and 30 min nap, what do you think increasing her second A to 2 hours and 30 minutes may do? 1 hour is -usually- an indication of UT nap. Usually. How was she when she woke up?

Today this seems to have led to a 1hr 30 min first nap and a 2hr 15 2nd nap! Catching up on night sleep!?

I think so! sounds like it. She may be going through a bad night, making it up during the day and cycling through this. It may be best to stick to 2 x 1.5 hour naps ..and hope that she adds the missed sleep to her night.

Do be careful of that last nap..if she gets more than 45 minutes close to bed time, then it may be disrupting her nights. sort of robbing her night sleep and adding it to her day again.

Another question. Before her bath I give her nappy off time and she loves kicking about on playmat with clothes off, in fact she is very energetic, a bit hyper even. Is this too close to bedtime and causing restless sleep? She enjoys it so much and has really helped with tummy time.

Depends on what type of girl she is Is she spirited? Some babies find a bath relaxing, and some moms find that a bath riles their child up and they can't sleep afterwards. Hmm..could you try giving her a bath another time for a week or just giving her a wipe down rather than a full bath? You may be on to something! I couldn't do baths when she was younger...so out of the question. It gets better as they get older and can handle more stimulation..so the bath time will come back! I know how important it is and how much our children love bath time.

 

Also I guess last night should not have fed at 2.30 am, prob caused the very early wakening? Does anyone have any experience with the so-called core-night-method?

I hope you get an answer to this. I don't think a feed would lead to an EW though. I think if she was hungry, she would have woken up.

One last question, her feeding is always nearly on a feeding schedule now, day and night, I never get the longer stretch I expect at night. I feel like I have accidental parented my way into this but I don't know how!

I see that. Every 4 hours during the day, correct? I'm not sure about the nights Is she hungry at night? Do you feed her at night? I hope you get more help with this one!
Have you seen these?
* http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=67403.0
* http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=67978.0

HTH!
sarah

[Gpgmum]

Hi there,

Well when I last posted DD had just had a 2hr 15 min nap. She was in very good form yesterday afternoon, played well, fed well and did a 45 min catnap at 4.15. Since she woke at 5 I thought I would try for a 7pm bedtime, although this did mean after a very early waking she had had a 13 1/2 hr day. So she slept at 7, but woke crying and unsettled at 10ppm. Tried settling for 30 mins but it wasn't happening so she got her bottle then and took 6 oz. Then woke at 3am and took another 3oz and slept till 6am. She wasn;t hungry at 6 and not very hungry at 7 either. Mum had a terrible nights sleep, I think I was stressing about all this too much!

Anyway today I tried 2hr 15 for the first A but it ended up being 2hr 20 because of an essential nappy change and got a 1hr 10 min nap. Then 2hr 30 activity and got a 50 min nap. Resettled from this nap but that only lasted 10 mins. So confused! No two days are the same at all.

Should I concentrate on 12 hour days so if she wakes at 5.30am then 5.30pm bedtime hard as that is?  My DH will never see her and my family and his both think we are mad as they never seemed to require any routine or schedule at all!

I feel terribly frustrated with lots of things, I know one night waking isn't bad at this age, but the sleep deprivation is so hard. I really didn't want to move her into her own room before 6 months but I can't get to bed early, at least before her 10.30 ish feed and if I can't get back to sleep after the night feed I am going to be a wreck!

Ok, need to perk up. I guess try for a long catnap now to make up for poor two naps earlier.

[matthewemerson]

Hi there!
Just read over quickly some of your posts.. just wanted to give some input on a couple things ..
I have a lill guy, turning 4 months on Monday.. He has been bottle fed since just after 2 months. He is eating 7-8oz every bottle, every 3-3.5oz.. (he is a pretty big boy tho.. height and weight of a 5 month old just after he turned 3 months..)
If your little one is eating 6-7oz, and only taking 3 oz at night - maybe not necissarily hungry? Im playing with son and reading, so sorry if Ive missed something you said, and Im repeating myself or asking something you've already answered. My son would also wake up anywhere from 3-430, and I was always feeding him. One time I was dying to go pee.. so went pee while the bottle was heating up.. and since I wasnt in the room with him getting him up for bottle, he fell back asleep! So after that night I would go in and soothe and comfort him, but not feed him. ( unless he was crying very hard.. ) and he would fall back asleep.. eventually he would wak, but just soothe himself, or I could soothe him within 5 mins.
Also, with the baths.. I would give DS a bath at night.. but he loves the water and would also get very excited and wanted to kick and play afterwards.. I switched the bath to daytime.. and he sleeps better, and also goes down easier at night.  And he plays longer during the day in the bath and after - and loves it.  Maybe try switching bathtime to daytime?
Again, hope I havent repeated something you've already said.. I know I love hearing other peoples routines and sugggestions.. so thought I'd say what works/ed for us. =)

[Jiinx]

Hi there!
 Great advice from mm

 I'm so sorry things aren't going well. Her naps do indicate UT. I'm not sure if you mentioned that she was crying or happy at the end of these naps?

 I'm just wondering about her calories at night and her not being hungry during the day. I know you said that her reflux is finished and nothing indicates otherwise - but with a daughter that had reflux and taking a look at your day, your daughter -could- still have minor reflux. I say that just bc of her taking some calories at night and not settling during the day despite pretty good A times. How is she when she wakes up?

I'm hesitant to increase her As just yet..I'd stick with the current (2 hours and 15, 2 hours and 30) for a few more days as you need something to be consistent bc she's not. Does that make sense? if everything is everywhere then we won't be able to get a sense of what she's doing..

hth

[Gpgmum]

Hi ladies and thanks for all the advice,

Just wanted to update you. Firstly Jiinx to answer your question, when she was waking from her shorter naps yesterday she cried, I left her a minute to check it's a real cry but I think I know now when it's not just mantra so I go in and when she sees me she's all smiles. So I get her up and she's pretty fine but I do notice that her attention span for playing is different than when I know she's well rested.

How would I know if reflux is up again? I never had to medicate before, not sure what to do to check this?

I guess I should have said before, she is 21 weeks today, and last time I had her weighed was at 16.5 weeks and she was 13lb14. So thinking around 15 something now, but I'm going to have this checked next week.

So anyway thanks for the advice re. baths and it worked. I cut out the stimulating time last night and she went to bed peacefully at 6pm, slept peacefully till the dreamfeed at 10.30, which really was a dreamfeed this time, she barely woke. Then slept till 2am, where a quick ssh put her back over, and a feed of 3oz at 4.30am. She then slept till 6am. So we got a 12 hr day and 12 hr night for the first time in a while, and she did 10.30 - 4.30 for a feed which was the best yet I think.

As for today, the first activity was 2hr 15. I got a 1hr nap. Second activity was 2hr 30 and I know this was too long after a shorter 1st nap, got caught out with a friend calling. So I only got a 40 min nap. I took her out in the pram after 20 mins or so and she slept again for 45 mins. But then the catnap has not happened. I tried to just look for the signs as the timings were all messed up and I thought I had eye rubbing etc at 1hr 45. But she fought the nap, screamed in her bedroom, I tried a few times and gave up and went for a calmer bath. It really was a meltdown for a while though. Bottle now and trying for bed again at 6. But she's been awake since 2pm which I know is way too long. So who knows about tonight. I really hate getting her overtired, it feels like letting her down!

These acitivity times are so confusing and her sleepy signs have become really unreliable, I used to go on yawning, eye rubbing and get it mostly right but now! Is it possible 2hr 15 in the am isn't enough?

I also didn't answer you before, yes, I think she's spirited! She's great, sunny and happy when well rested and we get the naps right, and I really thought she was even beginning to handle a little bit of overtiredness better but today disproved that!

Thanks again.

[Jiinx]

Hi hun,
 I'm happy for the success you had for that one night. It's frustrating, isn't it, when one day is good and the next can unravel so quickly hey? *Hugs* I'm sorry she was awake for so long..yes, she's OT and yes, you know that, and yes you did everything you could.

 Just a thought, on days where she's fighting that catnap - I'd just put her into the stroller or car seat to save your day somewhat.

 Re: reflux. Every baby is different. I find if they're unsettled with their naps, feeding or you can hear them 'fluxing - that may indicate some clues. If her A times are bang on and yet, she's short napping that may be a consideration. I don't know...it could be so mild that it's just irritating her rather than any pain. By the end of the day, my daughter would be screeeaaaming from OT, OS ..and it was just her sucking on my breast for 30 mins and more just to settle herself down and get to bed.

She could be at 2 hours and 30 minutes for her first A, which is quite high but not completely unreasonable. I just don't want her to get into an OT hole since she's already in one, you know? Maybe we can try it when she has a good night's rest..

Hope the rest of her night wasn't too bad..and she settled easy after any NWs.