How do you teach LO that it is bedtime (not naptime) ?

[~Jen~]

Hi, Does anyone have any advice for how to help LOs distinguish bedtime from naps?  My DD had a great EASY routine until 6weeks when reflux and MPI symptoms started showing up. She has had unsettled evenings for a few weeks.  She is now on meds and I'm on dairy free diet to help. I think we are starting to get it all sorted out. She is now 8 weeks old.  But our bedtime has become non-existent as she is up from 8 -11pm.  I've had her bedtime routine in place since she was home from hospital.. i.e. catnap, bath, massage, milk, prayers and into moses basket.  The past 2 weeks now though when I put her down after her bedtime routine, she takes a 45min nap (??) and wakes happily for 30mins or so but won't go back to sleep.  Then she will proceed to cry on/off for next few hours.  At first I thought this is all related to colic/reflux but I'm starting to wonder if this is routine related or if there is something more I can do to teach her that this is bedtime and not just the "fifth nap" of the day?

[~inbalance~]

What does your routine look like now?

Keep up with the consistent and distinct bedtime routine.  It really does help signal that it is time for bed. 

[~Jen~]

Hi Martina,  This is where we are now...I am decreasing her A a bit after a string of short naps the past few days:

7:30 Wake
E 7:45
A
S 8:45
E 10:45
A
S 12 (she has been waking after 45mins or 1 hr and i try to extend not much luck)
A
E 1:30
A
S 2:15 (give her 2hrs but lately wakes after 45 so i try to extend)
E 4:30
A
S 5:30 (i give her 45-1hr CN)
A Bath
E 6:45
Bed 7:15 (

[~Jen~]

She sometimes settles for bed and sleeps 45 -1 hr. And then is up. Other nights, does not settle at all and cries off/on until I dreamfeed (not dreaming at all!) at 10:15.  Then she will finally settle after this feed and is asleep for the night at 11:15. She will usually go until 4:30am and then I usually wake her at 7:30am. 

She used to be fine at bedtime, sleeping 3hrs and we would wake her to dreamfeed. It was textbook.  That all stopped 2 weeks ago with the fussy evenings.  Not sure what is going wrong - or is it just colic and she will go back to normal bedtime evenings when it all passes? Maybe my BT routine is not distinct enough from her naptime routine? ASide from bath, they are pretty similiar - should that matteR?

[~inbalance~]

Well, I'm not too good at this EASY stuff, lol.  So I'm just going to throw some thoughts out there and hopefully someone with more EASY knowledge will jump on.

I think your bedtime routine looks good, just keep at it and it will help her know it's bedtime.

I actually think that maybe she is getting too much day sleep.  That second nap especially, the 45min one you can't extend, I think is UT so maybe try a bit more A time before that particular nap to see if you can get it past 45mins.

Also I think you are still sorting out reflux, milk intolerance issues, etc., so that can make it hard to figure out what she needs as well. 

[~Jen~]

Yes we are still sorting out reflux/MPI... and I am sure that is throwing another complication into this whole thing.  I start second guessing myself with her reflux and wondering am I just getting her routine very very wrong and she is just crazy OT/OS from  not sleeping in evenings and then day sleep is off... round and round we go? I am still getting to know her and her signs/cues.  I do know the 45mins naps are driving me crazy. She has had them for 2 days straight now.  When you add in the fact that she is not sleeping and crying from 7-11pm; this mommy has no Y time at all is starting to go a bit crazy.  When she used to nap for 2hrs during hte day, at least I had some time for me but now when I am trying to extend each nap that leaves little time for anything else or my 2yr DS   
Was hoping that by tweaking A times, I can get 2hr naps back for her.  Her night sleep is so crappy that she must be extra tired during the day. I know the actual 45min nap monster is just around the corner at 3mos old so I can't stand the thought of 45mins nap for the next 2/3 months     I actually think a shorter A might be better for her... she is yawning around 50mins so maybe I am just missing her sleep window by a bit.  I have tried extending A times to 1.25hr and I got the same result = 45min nap!  ugh...  Or maybe she is just uncomfortable from reflux and wakes at 45mins and there is just nothing I can do about it.? 

[~inbalance~]

Oh (((hugs)))!!!  Once again I can totally sympathize. 

We never had a 45min nap problem.  It was always 30mins!    And we never had any 2hr naps either, just the really short ones!   

But for us most of the time it was pain related due to reflux.  Until the reflux was controlled, it was absolutely nothing but 30min naps. 

Definitely follow your instinct.  I think there is a tweak needed somewhere, but like I said I'm no good at EASY stuff!  Just here for moral support.    Will try to get some EASY eyes on your post for you. 

[empowered mama]

hi there,

I'm going to agree with Martina on the UT 2nd nap and suggest that you may want to bump her 2nd A time by 5-10 minutes and see if she extends it for you.  My guess for the NWs is that she is OT by bedtime from the short naps, so I think if we can get the naps sorted, then perhaps the NWs will clear up a bit. 

I'm not much of an expert on reflux, but I suppose that can always play a factor as well.

(((hugs)))  We're here to hold your hand!

[~Jen~]

Hi there, thank you for the hand!    I need it... I thought EASY would be so much better this time around but I seem to have forgot most of what I learned with DS!     TBH, DD is so different anyway I feel like I am starting all over again.

Ok, I will try extending her A for that second nap and see what happens. Nothing to lose at this point. We are out for the next two days during the 2nd nap (doctors for reflux issues) so I can't really give it a go for a few days. I hope you are right about the bedtime issues. I will do ANYTHING to clear this up.  I can't keep this up too much longer so fingers crossed we can get naps sorted and that helps the nights. 

Martina - thank you for your support    I don't know how you did 30mins naps!! My gosh, I can't imagine how difficult that must have been. 45mins are hard enough, by the time I leave her room, I feel like I am running back up to her room to resettle.  I just keep telling myself it will get better... it will get better.  I have great BWers like you to get me through it!

[~Jen~]

One other question.... when DD wakes 45mins after going to bed, she wakes and shuffles for about 20mins and then starts crying.  This is when things really go down hill as it is nearly impossible to get her to resettle until our "DF" around 10pm.  We usually wait and see if she resettles on her own (which never happens but we keep hoping) and then start all the APing to get her back down once she is crying.  Do you think we should be doing anything different?  Or do you think just a matter of getting her naps sorted and see if that helps with this awful NW?

[~inbalance~]

I think you are doing the right thing by waiting to see if she settles herself.  At least you are giving her fair chance.

Here is what I think may be happening.  First off, I think you might have an 8wk growth spurt on your hands.  So I think she is going to bed, waking UT and is unable to resettle.  In the meantime she is getting hungry, so that is why she ends up staying awake and then sleeping after the DF.  Do you feed her at NWings as well? 

So maybe try clusterfeeding in the evening to see if it helps tank her up before bed.  If you can tweak her routine to get her sufficiently tired at bedtime, then hopefully she will sleep until the DF.

Big ((hugs)) though, honestly those were dark days for me.  We moved when DS2 was 1 wk old, and we didn't even get to move into our house yet.  We had to stay at my dad's vacation place which was soooo not kid friendly.  It was 4 separate levels, so I was constantly running up and down stairs between DS1 downstairs and DS2 upstairs, trying to get him to nap.  Since he wouldn't go down easily and only slept 30mins, I ended up giving up trying altogether.  DS2 more or less slept in the baby carrier or baby wrap for the first 3mos of his life until we finally moved into our house and he had his own room.

It was a nightmare, but like anything else it was easy to forget how horrible it was once he started outgrowing some of those issues and becoming more of his own little person.  Of course I wouldn't change it for the world now.  It's easy to say it went by quick looking back, but it's easy to feel like the future is so far away looking forward.  Just take it one day at a time. 

[~Jen~]

Wow, I really can't imagine how hard that must have been. I can sooo sympathize on the 4 levels.  We have 4 levels in our house and I spend my entire day running between the ground floor with DS and DD on the 4th floor.  Everyone asks me how I lost the baby weight so quickly!     

Thanks for the ideas.. maybe she is UT.  It is 10pm here and she is sitting in her bouncy chair cooing and kicking away - happy as can be.  We usually take her out of her room around 9pm if she doesn't stop crying as she wakes DS and we all need a break.  She is happy when she gets out of her room and we stop trying to settle her.  It is just hard to believe she is UT when her naps are so bad during the day and then she isn't really going to bed until 11pm??  I would think OT not UT but she just won't settle again so maybe really isn't tired at bedtime.  I will start pushing her A and see what happens.  I usually will only feed her at the DF and then she usually will wake around 4/4:30am for a feed and thankfully she settles right back down and sleeps until 7:30 when we wake her.

[~inbalance~]

There are such things as UT/OT loops where you keep bouncing back and forth between the two.  So for example, if her first nap is good she might be going down UT for her second nap, which ends up being short because of UT but then sets you up for future OT.  Perhaps her last nap of the day is setting you up for UT.  Sometimes too, you have to look at the total amount of day sleep, and not just the different increments. 

Do you keep a log?  I have never been a good log keeper.    But I did try for a bit when things were horrible, and it does help you see where the sleep and A time is going, and what the total amount of sleep is.  Sometimes you see patterns that you never knew were there, or something hidden becomes obvious, maybe it will help.

In the meantime, don't be hard on yourself.  It's a hard time, and since you're still working on settling the reflux you can't get too caught up in the routine/sleep training aspect.  It's about balance, of course work on EASY and tweaking as best you can, but also AP and do what you have to in the meantime to make sure everyone (the WHOLE family) is happy. 

[empowered mama]

It's about balance, of course work on EASY and tweaking as best you can, but also AP and do what you have to in the meantime to make sure everyone (the WHOLE family) is happy.  Smiley

yes Martina, very good words

I agree about the UT/OT thing.  In general it seems like she is getting sufficient day sleep overall if you are offering 4 naps.  So it's kind of hard to tell right now if her NWs are due to OT or UT.  I've not had much experience with UT NWs, but most that I've seen say their LOs wake and are playing happily.  So, hmm....maybe if we could get back to the longer naps we could see more clearly what is going on.

(((hugs)))