Need help with set naps

[amandag]

My 10.5 month old son has never been a great sleeper, we have always had problems with short naps and early wakings.  It seemed like he was finally figuring it out around 7 months, and would take great naps and sleep 11 hours at night.  At eight months he refused the cat nap, and we've been having lots of problems since.  He struggled with A times of 3 hours since he was always OT, he just had too long of A time in the afternoon.  I kept trying stretch out his A times in the morning and between naps one and two so we didn't have such a long A time in the afternoon, but this just led to short naps.  We tried early bedtimes, but they don't seem to help since it guaranteed an early waking (4 am).  He would usually have a few night wakings, probably due to being overtired.  Basically, I was unable to stretch out his A times because he was always so tired and always waking early.  We have a 7:15 bedtime and most days he is up at 5 or 5:30. 
Last week I decided to try set nap times since nothing else seemed to be working.  The first nap is at 9:15 and the second at 1:45.  The first few days he had short naps and was OT, but then he had a few days when he would take 2.5 hr morning naps and an 1.25 hr afternoon nap, and then sleep about 10.5 hrs at night.  It seemed things were getting better.  Since then he has been taking shorter naps.  Usually he will sleep 1 hr 15 min to 1.5 hrs in the morning, but I cannot get him to sleep more than 45 minutes to an hour in the afternoon and is so cranky when he wakes.  He is still waking early, usually it is 5:15 am with  a few night wakings.  The night wakings are usually within 3 hrs of bedtime or at 3 am, and usually I can get him resettled and back to sleep within 5 to 10 minutes.  FYI, we are also dealing with a couple of other issues-- somehow he forgot how to suck his thumb and now has trouble soothing himself, and there are some separation anxiety issues.  I have to stay in the room until he's asleep, sometimes he needs shush/pat or a hand on the back, other times I just need to stand by his crib.  Before he would fall asleep independently without anyone in the room.
Any advice on what I should do with the set naps?  Does the morning nap need to be moved back a little to help with the early wakings?  Or does it take longer for him to get settled into a set nap routine (its been about 10 days.)

[sianie]

Hi there..

I have done set naps with both my LO's.....in the middle of doing dinner but I'll be back later.....

[sianie]

Hi again..

It could be that your LO is starting the 2:1 transition (see link below which you may find helpful)

http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=95670.0

Set naps have really helped my 2 LO's & create more predictable days. My DS is a little older than your LO but at around 10mths old we were doing AM nap at 10am (1.5hrs) & PM nap at 2.30pm (1hr) with BT around 7pm. It doesn't matter if he has a shorter AM nap as he makes up for it in the PM nap. 

If you post your routine I'll have a look & see if we can figure it out! 

[amandag]

Hi, thanks so much for your help!  Thanks for the link to the 2:1 transition.  I'm not sure if that is what is happening or not.  I think the nap problems and early waking are all OT related?  He is always crying when he wakes up in the morning and usually after the afternoon nap.  And he is usually cranky in the late afternoon.  I don't think he gets nearly enough sleep- most nights only 10 hours and 1.5- 2.5 hours during the day.  So I was hoping the set nap times would help with that.

Here is our routine:
Wake anywhere from 5 to 5:30
Nap at 9:15-
Awake at 10:45 (sometimes up earlier)
Nap at 1:45
Awake at 2:30 or 3:00
Bedtime at 7:15

I was thinking maybe I need to move the first nap back a little bit?  He has 4 hrs A time in the morning with the early wakings, and still usually takes a good nap.

[sianie]

Crying on waking from naps can indicate OT &/or discomfort. Is he teething?

You are right 10hrs sleep at night is low. I think you need to try to stabilise his DT sleep so that (hopefully!) his nights will lengthen. TBH I wouldn't pull that 1st nap back much, certainly no earlier than 9am as if you make it too early your LO will just see it as an extension of night sleep.

You could aim for AM nap 9/9.15am (hopefully for 1.5hrs) then leave the PM nap around 1.45pm (ideally for 1hr/1.5hrs) with BT at around 7pm.

Does he settle ok at BT? Do you get any NW's?

[amandag]

I don't think he's teething.  So you think I should leave everything basically the same?  I thought maybe I should push the nap back to 9:45 or so?
He has been going down for naps and bedtime easily, as long as I'm in the room (I think this is a separation anxiety issue).  Usually he is asleep within 10 minutes of putting him down.  He has had frequent night wakings, usually 2 or 3 a night- within a few hours of bed time then again around 2 or 3.  I have to help him resettle and stay in the room until he's asleep, but usually it only takes 5 to 10 minutes.  Last night he only woke once at 7:45pm.  So maybe things are getting better.

Well the good news is today he took an 1.5 hour nap in the morning and his afternoon nap was 1 hr 15 min, and he actually seemed happy when he woke up.

[sianie]

Personally I don't think there's much wrong with your routine.

If anything I would push it back to 9.30am but the problem is that if he's currently OT then pushing it back could make it worse iyswim? NW's also indicate OT.

Great that you got better naps, if this continues for a few days than move his AM nap back to 9.30am.

I would try & hold the line for a couple of days & hope that things continue to improve, then come back & let me know how things are going.

Does this make sense?

[amandag]

Yes, thanks again.  It took a little while to get him to sleep last night (about 7:30) and he was up at 5:30 again. But there were no NWs! He is taking good naps now, just wish I could get another hour of nighttime sleep from him.  I'll keep all the naptimes the same for a few days then, and then try 9:30 naptime if the EWs don't stop.

[sianie]

Yep, I think that's a good plan. Unfortunately, there's no easy way to solve it but be consistent with what you are doing & I would hope that things start to improve in a few days...FX & keep in touch! 

[amandag]

Yesterday we had a great morning nap (9:15 - 11:15).  I had a hard time settling him down for the 1:45 nap.  I put him down at 1:30 since it usually takes 10 -15 minutes to get him asleep.  He didn't fall asleep until 2:10.  And bedtime was hard, I aim to have him asleep by 7:15 ( so I put him down at 7).  He didn't fall asleep until 7:40.  And there were 2 NW's, one for 20 minutes at 10:45, and he was up again from 1 - 2:30.  Then he was up for the day at 5:20, and I could not get him back to sleep.  So he got maybe 8 hours of sleep last night.  Poor little guy was so tired and kept falling asleep when I was BF this morning.  Nap time was extremely difficult this morning.  I put him down at 9, and he kept standing up.  I tried for the nap until 10:30 (I work at home and had something for work) and then had to wake my husband (he works nights) to watch him.  My husband finally got him to sleep at 11:00 and he's currently sleeping.  Any idea on what to do??  He is just so OT that his short nights are messing up his naps.  Maybe I shouldn't have let him take a 2 hour nap yesterday morning?

[sianie]

Personally I would have capped the AM nap at 1.5hrs. That's more than likely why he didn't settle straight away for his PM nap (UT).

I'd let him have 1.5hrs now then aim for a CN (saying he wakes at 12.30pm) at around 3.30pm for 30 mins to get you through to a BT of around 6.30/6.45pm.

Cap the AM nap at 1.5hrs tomorrow & see how you go! 

[amandag]

I don't think that he was UT yesterday, I think he was way OT.  He had a 30 minute nap when he finally went to sleep.  Anytime I BF he is always falling asleep.  I guess I was thinking he needs to catch up on sleep since he has been going short on sleep for weeks and weeks with the EWs...so I have a hard time waking him from any nap.  I will take your advice though and see what happens.  Thanks again.  I am really trying to avoid early bedtimes.  Most nights of the week it is just not possible to get him in bed before 7 with our family's schedule.  I think the early bedtimes just reinforce the EWs with him.

[sianie]

Sorry, I was referring to the day he had a 2hr nap he had followed by him not settling for his PM nap being UT.

I understand about the early BT but although it may not make him get up any later in the AM, at least he would have had more total nights sleep.

 

[amandag]

I have been on jury duty all week so my DH has been watching the little guy.  DH has been putting him down at the same set nap times, and has been getting good naps (1.5 hrs in the morning and 1 hr 15 min in the afternoon).  BT has been difficult most nights (today it took 40 minutes to fall asleep, and he was up a 1/2 hr later for 25 minutes.)  There have been 2-3 NWs each night and some early wakings.  2 nights ago he was up at 3:30 and would not go back to sleep.... very frustrating.  It is week 3 of the set naps so I guess I was hoping for better nights by now.
This is what his days have looked like this week:
Wake: Anywhere from 5-6 am
1st nap: 9:15 - 10:45
2nd nap: 1:45 - 3
Bedtime: 7- 7:15 (hasn't been falling asleep until 7:30 - 7:45)

Tomorrow I plan on pushing the naps back 15 minutes later, and maybe even later in the future (maybe a 10am 1st nap?) He is way OT in the afternoons and so crabby, so I think a shorter A time in the afternoon and longer in the morning might be better.  Does that sound like a good idea?  Does anybody have any suggestions?

[sianie]

It does sound like you are having some success with naps 'tho.

I would give pushing naps out a go & I would also cap the PM nap at 1hr. Good luck!