Set Naps

[jackman]

Mirabel,
Glad to hear that naps went a bit better. It could be that Madden is needing more A time, but just see what another day gives you in terms of A times. Here is a link that might help you decide:

http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=84884.0

In terms of the SA, I can't really comment as we are having it as well. I attribute it to teething. Night time is much better than it used to be since we do a very long WD before BT. Another link to read about SA:

http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=62612.0

Re: the time change - luckily we will be springing forward, so we don't really have to worry about anything. It will just be an hour later than usual so our EWs will be 'normal time'.  Here is a link for future reference:

http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=44509.0

Let us know what your EASY has looked like the last couple of days/night. Take care.

[Noriko378]

I think I goofed up yesterday. Because of the long A time, our BT ended up being at 9:30 p.m. and he woke up at 7 this morning so only 9 hrs sleep. His last nap was at 5 so I think I should have just made that into BT rather than waking him after an hr! Now I don't know what time I should put him to sleep. I'm going to aim for 10:30 this morning and hoping that he would have a good nap. I need to take him to daycare this afternoon (to start transitioning him) so I need him to take a good nap. Any strategies recommended for the 2nd nap? Should I wake him from the first nap or just let him sleep and just do a catnap in the afternoon and early BT?

[jackman]

Your strategy for that second nap will depend on how Madden is acting - do you still think he is OT? Or is he over the hump? If still OT, then let him sleep as long as he wants for that first nap. If it starts to get too late in the day for the second nap, then you need to wake him and not let him sleep too long to maintain BT. A lot of mom's have a min time that last nap can last so they can maintain BT (i.e. wake up at 3:30pm so lo can go down easily at BT for 7pm if A time is 3.5hrs). Be careful here because that CN could be 30min and you'll need to know how much A Madden can handle to prevent OT. I would strongly advise against you trying a one nap since Madden has been out of sorts and switching quickly to one nap can cause even more OT.

If you think he is over the hump, then I would try limiting that first nap at 1.5hrs and then second nap at an hour based on the A time you know works for Madden.

I'll write more later. Need to do preschool run.

[Noriko378]

To be honest, I'm not quite sure if he is still OT. Yesterday, he had an 11 hr night plus his first nap was 1 hr 40/2nd nap 1 hr so total sleep was almost 14 hrs. Maybe that's why he gave me a short night. The day before, he had an 11.5 hr night and 2 hr in naps so 13.5 hrs in total. I think maybe his ideal total wake time is around 10.5 - 11 hrs. This morning, I put him for his nap at 10:30 and he is still sleeping so I think he can handle 4 hrs A time now. I, for sure, don't want him to have just one nap a day....esp. since I know he gets OT so quickly....I'm also trying to go a little bit slower now since we are also dealing with SA. I've had to pat him to sleep the last 2 times just so I can avoid the screaming..I know..bad idea...I just don't think I can deal with so much screaming and I'm scared that we might get severely OT if I do an extended wi/wo with him..

[jackman]

I completely understand about not wanting Madden to scream. In fact, BW believes in not letting your lo CIO, so you are doing all the right things mama!

When we had SA, there were some nights that it got soo bad that my DS did CIO (I was sitting in the room with him the whole time). I tried so hard not to PU, but in the end I needed to do what was necessary to make sure he was getting sleep and not lose trust. This all led to me co-sleeping, so if you have to pat right now just to help Madden sleep and not get OT then so be it. The best thing about BW is that we taught our lo's to sleep independently and there will be blips in the road where APOP is necessary, but in the end our lo's bounce back to what they know.

Based on the last couple days sleep, I think you can start slowly increasing Madden's A times (key is slowly). Have you decided if you want to try set naps or just keep with A times?

[Noriko378]

Oh my...those must have been tough nights. I can handle the crying during the day but for some reason, crying at night seems to be much worse. Maybe because you're also exhausted by then as well.

Well, today was day 2 of using his new A time of 4 hrs. We had about 10 hrs sleep last night after putting him down for BT at 8:40. Still trying to figure out how we can get him to sleep for 11 hrs a night. The good part is he STTN, the not so good is that he is still pulling short nights. His 1st naps seem to generally be the good nap of the day. Usually he sleeps for 1 hr 20-1.5 hrs. The 2nd nap however is still iffy at times. I find that he usually still has trouble transitioning and will wake at the 40 minute mark, fuss then goes back to sleep. Perhaps he is a tad bit OT for this nap. Not sure....

I think I'm going to go with the A time for one more day just to make sure that 4 hrs is our guidelines.

[Noriko378]

Ok, after observing Madden's sleep for the last 3 days, here is what I know:

1) his first A time is 4 hrs - any less, I get the screaming/crying/SA behavior. The last 2 days, I've managed to go back to lying him in the crib awake and he goes to sleep independently. His 1st nap usually lasts about 1 hr 20 minutes to 1.5 hrs. with no waking in between

2) his 2nd A time can range from 3.45-4 hrs but he seems to be having a harder time transitioning with this nap (usually wakes after 40 minutes, fusses then goes back to sleep) so not sure what to make of this.

3) last A time is usually 3 hrs if he has a short nap...not sure if I should lengthen this to 3.5 hrs.

Night sleep is now back to 10 hrs exactly so I'm not sure what to do to lengthen the NS. The day before yesterday, he had 3 hrs of nap because he only slept for 9 hrs at night and we got 10 hrs of NS that evening. Yesterday, we have 2 hrs 15 daytime sleep and we then got 10 hrs 10 minutes of NS. Should I be cutting his naps or extending his awake time? We're doing 13 hr days atm.

[jackman]

Great job of observing Madden's A times and sleeping over the last few days Mirabel! 

Night sleep is now back to 10 hrs exactly so I'm not sure what to do to lengthen the NS. The day before yesterday, he had 3 hrs of nap because he only slept for 9 hrs at night and we got 10 hrs of NS that evening. Yesterday, we have 2 hrs 15 daytime sleep and we then got 10 hrs 10 minutes of NS. Should I be cutting his naps or extending his awake time? We're doing 13 hr days atm.

It sounds like Madden is the type to tack onto night sleep if you limit his day sleep. So if you want his nights to lengthen then you will need to start cutting his naps. A sleep expert told me that when you are in the midst of the 2-1 trans, night sleep does tend to shorten especially if you are still on two naps. Once you transition to one nap, then night sleep will lengthen.

1) his first A time is 4 hrs - any less, I get the screaming/crying/SA behavior. The last 2 days, I've managed to go back to lying him in the crib awake and he goes to sleep independently. His 1st nap usually lasts about 1 hr 20 minutes to 1.5 hrs. with no waking in between

If you want to try set naps, then I think nap #1 at 10:30am after a 6:30am WU will work.

2) his 2nd A time can range from 3.45-4 hrs but he seems to be having a harder time transitioning with this nap (usually wakes after 40 minutes, fusses then goes back to sleep) so not sure what to make of this.

I think if you cut back on his A time by 15min, it might help with the transitioning. Q: if you try to put Madden down earlier, does he fight? Nap #2 would be from 3:30pm-4:15pm.

3) last A time is usually 3 hrs if he has a short nap...not sure if I should lengthen this to 3.5 hrs.

What is a short nap? 30, 40min? I'm thinking on a 45min pm nap, Madden should be able to manage 3hrs A if not 3hrs15min A time to BT.  So BT around 7:15/30pm which would maintain a 13hr day.

What do you think?

[Noriko378]

Thanks Oanh! I appreciate the encouragement.  I'm tellin' ya..the little one sure knows how to keep me on my toes.

A sleep expert told me that when you are in the midst of the 2-1 trans, night sleep does tend to shorten especially if you are still on two naps. Once you transition to one nap, then night sleep will lengthen.

Didn't know that. Sure glad to know that this is more of a 'norm' than anything else. I guess we do need to start cutting his naps then. Just hope we don't go into an OT spiral again.

If you want to try set naps, then I think nap #1 at 10:30am after a 6:30am WU will work.

Yes, I do believe that will work because that's generally the time I put him down for his nap (between 10:15-10:30) for a 6-6:30 a.m. WU

Q: if you try to put Madden down earlier, does he fight? Nap #2 would be from 3:30pm-4:15pm.

He doesn't really fight per se, but it does take him a bit longer to settle. I put him down for his 2nd nap at 4 today and he didn't fall asleep until 4:12 (4 hr 20 A time) so not that bad. The good thing is he didn't display his usual SA behavior so I think you are right when you said that his previous reaction was due to the low A times. He was protesting because I'm putting him down for his nap too early!!! 

What is a short nap? 30, 40min? I'm thinking on a 45min pm nap, Madden should be able to manage 3hrs A if not 3hrs15min A time to BT.  So BT around 7:15/30pm which would maintain a 13hr day.

A short nap for him usually means 40 mins. (that's his 1 sleep cycle) so if he does wake at 40 minutes, I usually give him 3 hrs A before BT but that is still giving me 10 hr nights. Should I maybe extend that to 3 hrs 15 to see if that will extend his NS?

If we are going to cut naps, should I cut the last nap and bring forward his BT? His 1st nap of the day seem to be the most reliable so I'm counting on that to keep the day going.

[jackman]

A short nap for him usually means 40 mins. (that's his 1 sleep cycle) so if he does wake at 40 minutes, I usually give him 3 hrs A before BT but that is still giving me 10 hr nights. Should I maybe extend that to 3 hrs 15 to see if that will extend his NS?

No, keeping Madden up longer at night won't extend his nights, but instead could give you more problems if on a short nap you don't think he can handle more A time. If the 3hrs is working after a 40min nap, then keep it there and instead the nap cutting will help with longer nights.

If we are going to cut naps, should I cut the last nap and bring forward his BT? His 1st nap of the day seem to be the most reliable so I'm counting on that to keep the day going.

How often is Madden having a short nap of 40min in the pm? When he does, is that when you notice that NS is a bit longer? Meaning his DS is around 2hrs15min? If yes, then I'm a bit hesitant to cut any more right now until things are consistent for you. The next step would be to make that second nap a CN of 30min and A time to BT would be 2.5hrs. This might work for you so you can maintain a13hr day of 6:30am-7:30pm as it seems that second nap is so late in the day after his first nap.

You are definitely on your way towards one nap and I think you have found a routine that will work for you as you get ready to go back to work. Good job Mirabel!