Not getting the hang of WIWO and GW doesn't work - what now? And NWs ...

[Grace's Mummy]

I did GW and in the end I managed to get out the door, but she would scream when I did finally leave and often, because of that, I stayed in the room by the door until she was asleep. She simply didn't want me to go - and still doesn't. Anyway, she got off track (holiday and illness) and I thought when I started to get back on track, that I wanted to do WIWO as I would like to be able to put our DD in bed and then go. Well, we have been doing it for ages and her screaming and distress seem to be getting worse. It usually takes 30 mins plus, and sometimes up to an hour. Sometimes, it is only 10 mins, but that doesn't happen too often. It happens at naps too. It is just awful and I find it so difficult and upsetting. I hate having her scream like that and sound as though her world is ending. She gets so terribly upset.

We were away for the weekend and she seemed scared of the room she was in so i stayed with her whilst she went to sleep and it only took 9 mins. I didn't touch her, but I was in the room. In the end though, she woke up and was utterly hysterical so we brought her cot into our room and she slept in it there.

She is back in her own room tonight and it took 33 mins of screaming and desperate crying for her to go to sleep.

Naps are dreadful at the moment. She keeps waking after half an hour or an hour and I apop the rest of the nap. It is so difficult. I don't really know where to go from here. The other day, she took 35 mins to go to sleep and then only slept for 39 mins. I managed to get her back to sleep after 25 mins, and she slept for another 40 mins.

Her A time doesn’t seem to make a difference. It is hard to understand.

She has also been having NWs, which have been awful. She has been awake for an hour or two, and the other night she was up for 2.5 hours. There seems to be no rhyme or reason to that either. Perhaps it is because she is not napping well. If she sleeps too much, she is awake at night, and if she sleeps too little she is awake. It doesn’t happen often that she sleeps too much! Normally, she naps for an hour and 10 or 15. I do try to extend to 1.5 hours every day. Mostly it works, but not always.

Anyway, I have rambled enough. Thank you for taking the time to read this. 

[sianie]

Hi

Could you please post your routine so we can have a look at what's going on? 

[Grace's Mummy]

thank you for your reply. Here was Thursday of last week and yesterday:

Thursday 10th February:
Woke 11.07 pm - 11.28 pm (Wednesday night) - 21 mins
She woke only once that night.

A - 6.44 am - 12.23 pm - 5 hrs 39 mins
S - 12.23 pm - 1.02 pm - 39 mins
She took 27 mins to go to sleep. I started trying at 11.56 am (her usual time). In the end, she was in such a state that I lay her on me for 3 mins and then put her in the cot. She was pretty much asleep, although she opened her eyes when she went in the cot. When she woke, she was crying a lot. I went in and put her on me to calm her down and she went back to sleep at 1.21 pm. I put her back in the cot. She cried out at 1.33 pm, but resettled herself.
S - 1.21 pm - 2.02 pm - 41 mins
Total nap - 1 hr and 20 mins
I think she was woken up both times by things happening in the street.
A - 2.02 pm - 7.22 pm - 5 hrs 20 mins
She took 33 mins to go to sleep. I started at 6.49 pm. She was really screaming and very distresed, it was horrible. She woke up at 8.07 pm, but just needed to lie her down a couple of times. That night, she was awake for 2.5 hours (between 3 am and 5.30 am).

Sunday 13th February:
She woke at 0.57 am for around an hour.

A - 6.20 am - 12.12 pm - 5 hrs 52 mins
S - 12.12 pm - 1.42 pm - 1.5 hrs
She fell asleep in the car on the way back from our weekend. She slept the whole way. It was great - no crying or distress! She only woke up when the car stopped moving when we got home.
A - 1.42 pm - 7.21 pm - 5 hrs 39 mins
She took 33 mins to fall asleep. Again she was very distressed and upset. She woke at 3.42 am and went back to sleep at 3.52 am, but then woke at 4.05 am. She went back to sleep, but then woke at 4.25 am. I put a blanket on her and she went back to sleep until 6 am this morning. I brought her into our bed for her morning cuddles and she fell asleep again until 7.15 am, when I woke her up.

She has just gone down for her nap (12.22 pm). It only took 8 mins today. I am so glad she didn't take longer. I hate it so much for her.

[sianie]

Thanks....a few Q's to help establish what could be going on...

Could she be teething?

She certainly seems to have got into an OT loop probably on the back of illness/ holiday etc.

Have you tried pulling her nap forward a bit to say 12pm or a bit earlier. The short nap/crying etc could be OT from the NW's. Ideally I'd be aiming for around a 2hr nap at your LO's age.

Have you tried doing an earlier BT to help with her OT?

Has she ever suffered with SA?

Are you still consistently doing GW do deal with the NW's?

[Grace's Mummy]

Thank you very much for your reply. I shall answer all your questions and hope that we can figure out what is wrong with her. She woke up after an hour of nap, but I managed to get her back to sleep. In the end though, she only slept for an hour and 22 mins. Not enough really. Tonight, it was much better. She went down in 14 mins and she wasn't as hysterical as she has been. I am so glad that she wasn't so bad tonight.

Could she be teething?

I don't think so. I think she was, but her eighth tooth popped through on Saturday. It didn't seem to affect her as much as the last one. I am not sure why!

Have you tried pulling her nap forward a bit to say 12pm or a bit earlier. The short nap/crying etc could be OT from the NW's. Ideally I'd be aiming for around a 2hr nap at your LO's age.

I usually start trying to get her to sleep at around 11.50 - 11.55. She doesn't nap well just now at all, and if I were to nap her earlier, she would wake earlier and then need to have a much earlier bedtime. I do do an earlier bedtime if necessary, but not every day. If she sleeps for more than 1 hour and 35 - 40 mins, she will be awake in the night because she has slept too much. I tried letting her sleep more for a few days and she was awake for a couple of hours in the night. Maybe she is needing it just now though. Even if she is, she doesn't tend to sleep for that length of time. It is a rare thing that she will sleep for the whole nap without me having to APOP the rest of it. I am glad that on the whole I can extend it though otherwise she would have a very short nap most days. I think you are right that the crying is OT from the NWs. At the moment, it seems as though 5 hours A time is good for her and more than that makes her upset when it comes to going to sleep because she is OT. Although some days I can give her 5 hours of A time and she still screams and screams.

Have you tried doing an earlier BT to help with her OT?

I do try an earlier bedtime if she has napped badly or woken early. I did that on Friday and Saturday and it worked well.

Has she ever suffered with SA?

She doesn't really suffer from that except when it comes to going to sleep. She does get upset sometimes when I go, but then she is okay after a minute or two. Generally though, she is okay. It is just when she is going to sleep that she hates me leaving.

Are you still consistently doing GW do deal with the NW's?

I generally do WIWO for the NWs. Although very occasionally if she is utterly hysterical, I will stay in the room, but not touch her or say anything very often. She just knows I am there. I really try not to do that these days because I am trying to get her to go back to sleep on her own.

Thank you again!

If anyone else has any ideas, I would very much welcome hearing them.

[Grace's Mummy]

Today was much better, although the night was terrible. She woke 3 or 4 times. I can't even remember, I am so tired! She didn't stay awake too long each time, but she had a disturbed night because of waking so often.

She woke at 6.15 am and I took her into bed for cuddles. She fell asleep after a while and I woke her at 7.25 am.

For the nap, she went down in about 6 mins and slept the whole time without waking up. I woke her after an hour and 33 mins. Perhaps not wise, but I was worried about her having too much sleep as it has the same effect as having too much.

This evening, she went down in about 20 mins. She wasn't as hysterical as usual and I didn't have to go in much, but she has already woken since. I gave her some Calpol because she sounded very upset and was chewing her fingers. She went back to sleep almost right away.

I really hope she STTN tonight as I really need my sleep. We are due to start IVF in 10 days and I need to catch up a bit.

Please, if anyone has any ideas that would help, let me know. It is not ideal doing IVF and being so tired - although it will certainly take my mind off it!

[sianie]

Sorry things aren't much better!

From what you've said you don't think it's teething or SA so through a precess of elimination I think it's more than likely OT.

Has she always taken short-ish naps? I only say this as most LO's your DD's age need around a 2 hr nap, so I wonder if you've gotten into an OT cycle on the back of her being ill etc. IMO I would be aiming for a nap time of 12pm, perhaps even a bit earlier if she has woken very early. The fact you are having to go in to extend her naps also sounds like OT to me (out of interest, at what point in her nap does she wake & you have to extend?)

Unfortunately, there's no quick fix solution to getting LO's back on track, things will get better & the key is to try & stay as consistent as possible (although I totally appreciate it's hard when you are going through it!!)

I woud also continue to do early BT's too until she's back on track a bit. This will help curb the OT a bit & even if she doesn't wake any earlier in the morning, at least she's had a longer total nights sleep if that makes sense.

[Grace's Mummy]

Thank you for your reply.

She has never been a great napper. The last few months of two naps, she would nap half an hour in the morning and half an hour in the afternoon, and that was it! I then cut to one nap, with a short CN in the morning and it was better - at least I could extend that. I was never able to extend when she was on two naps.

When she is napping, she will wake anything from half an hour. It is not the same every day. It could be half an hour or an hour or even an hour and ten mins. Today it was 45 mins. I tried to resettle her in the way I do, but she wasn't interested. I have just put her to bed and she is sleeping. She will be very OT after a 45 min nap. I think it was perhaps as a result of being UT. Gosh this is SO hard to work out!

I realise there is no quick fix to getting back on track, it was just the screaming and distress when going to sleep - and the NWs. I think if she sleeps slightly later in the morning, it really helps to make sure the A times are not too long. Hopefully she won't wake early tomorrow morning - or have to many NWs tonight. I suspect she will because of her OT.

Thank you again.

[Grace's Mummy]

This evening was utterly horrendous. She was more distressed than I have known her. It was terrible. She woke after 22 mins and I started doing WIWO and she gradually got more and more distressed. In the end she was practically hyperventilating. I picked her up (I couldn't just leave her she was so distressed) and put her on me. It took 10 mins for her breathing to go back to normal. I thought she was asleep when I put her back, but she wasn't. She started crying again, but not nearly so bad. I rubbed her back and went out. The second she cried again, I went in and did it again. Eventually, after almost 50 mins, she went back to sleep. What am I doing wrong? I just don't understand this distress. It really is terrible. If anyone has any ideas, I would be so grateful for the help. I don't know how to go from here. What should I be doing when she is so distressed?  Thank you.

[sianie]

Sorry to hear you've had a difficult evening!

Are you able to APOP a CN when she short naps. How long has she been on 1 nap?

I definitely think that one of the problems is that she's not getting enough DT sleep & so is OT by BT which leads to NW's etc & so the cycle goes.

[danacarrie]

First of all, just a lot of hugs for you.  I can so relate to those bad nights.  You are not doing anything wrong- you are caring for your sweet LO as best you can!
I agree with Sian- I think you might be stuck in a loop.  When this happens to us, I find that a car nap helps.  I put LO in the car about 30 minutes before her regular nap time, get her all cuddled up with a blanket, lovey, and pacifier, turn on some mellow music, and drive for A LONG TIME.  The goal is to help her catch up on some sleep so that the night won't be so hard.  I find that I have to "split the difference"- ie: if you know that 1.5 hour nap gives you a hard night, try a 1.5 hour nap 15 minutes earlier than usual, and plan on bedtime being the same.  Or, do a 1.5 hour nap at normal time, and then bedtime is 10 min later or something.  You are just trying to break the loop.
I fully understand your struggle.  You can do it!

[Grace's Mummy]

Thank you both very much for your replies. Amazingly, and totally unexpectedly, Grace STTN! I was all prepared for a bad night, but she didn't wake until 6am.

I don't understand it at all! I would have thought that after a 44 min nap, she would be up at least once in the night. Perhaps she slept enough over night the previous night to make it okay.

She went down at 11.59 am today and so far... she hasn't woken up. I hope I haven't spoken too soon.

Thank you for your idea about the car ride. Sometimes I do this, and sometimes I put her in the pram and take her for a walk. If I need a CN, I do the same. I didn't think of that yesterday afternoon. Because we are on one nap now, I don't really think of a CN. She has been on one proper nap for a few weeks. Before Christmas, she was on one nap for a few weeks, but then we went on holiday and she was ill. We then did a very short CN in the morning and a longer nap at lunch. Then she started not wanting to go down for her nap, so I cut out the CN. I got lots of wonderful advice on here about that and I wouldn't have managed without it! As now!

Thank you both again very much for taking the time to reply. I am hoping we get out of this cycle soon and that her rhythm comes back again. In the meantime, I guess we will struggle on and sometimes she will scream before a nap and bed and sometimes she won't and the same with the night. After last night and her STTN, I am more confused than ever!

[Grace's Mummy]

Today she woke after an hour, but I managed to APOP the rest of the nap.

Tonight she went down in 20 mins, crying on and off. I didn't have to go in too much because she wasn't hysterical. However, like last night, she woke up again after 35 mins. I just don't understand it. She became hysterical again and I had to give her a cuddle to comfort her. I then stayed in the room, but didn't touch her as she was quiet. I then left and she is still asleep. What is going on with her? I can't work this out. Could I be doing something wrong at bedtime? Perhaps she is having SA at bedtime / naptime? Although today at naptime, she was out like a light with 6 hours A time. Maybe the A time is too short and she is not tired enough? Any thoughts?

[sianie]

What did her day look like today?

Waking so soon after going down for BT really does sound like OT to me.

[Grace's Mummy]

I know it does sound like OT, but I am not sure. Perhaps it is in that moment, but I think she maybe had too much overall sleep. She woke twice in the night, both times I just had to lie her down and she went back to sleep, but she was awake at 5.40 am this morning. The night before she had 11 hours 20 mins sleep and then a 1 hour and 30 min nap. I think it may be too much. I know that at this age, it sounds not enough, but she has never had high sleep needs. I think I need to keep her night sleep to 11 hours and then nap for 1.5 hours.

anyway, here was her day yesterdsay:

A - 5.58 am
S - 11.59 am - 1.31 pm (woke up after an hour and I APOPd the rest of the nap)
Asleep - 7.08 pm, but woke up at 7.45 pm for 25 mins. She woke again at 11.35 pm and 3.35 am and then finally at 5.40 am this morning. She went back to sleep at about 6.45 am until 7.23 am, when I woke her up. She had about 11 hours in total over night.

When going to sleep, she usually takes longer to go to sleep if she is UT. If she is very, very tired, she will ususally goes to sleep quicker and with less fuss. At least, I think that is the way it works. I have lost my confidence over the last few weeks.