Anyone Want To Talk About the 2-1 Transition? Thread #14

[AliG]

Claire, in my opinion (and choose to ignore if you want!), I would try capping it at 2hrs first - see how that goes for a few days and if it seems like he needs more day sleep, then let him have as long as he wants.

But more than 3hrs day sleep at this age seems a lot.

Then again, maybe that's just because we've had average or lower day sleep totals here. At 4 months, my little man was getting an absolute max of 3.25hrs.

[clairebear79]

Thanks ladies.  I think I am inclined to cap the pm nap at 2hrs since I suspect the 3hrs day sleep to be too much.  So thats what I will do.

We have done the capped am nap this morning & he's currently taking his pm nap but we're not off to the best of starts.  He took ages to settle for both naps, his 1st A time ended up at 3h 10 & he woke at 30mins (OT).  I'm expecting the same at his pm nap too.  I've no idea if its the 1st A time being too long or if its OT from yesterday's final A to BT being too long.  Or a few days of 10.5hrs or less night sleep when we generally get 11hrs.  Whatever it is, I hope doing this nap capping helps!!!

[aidenmc]

I am torn on whether to just go with 1 nap or keep trying for 2. Today we have to watch my son's play in the afternoon so it will be a definite one day nap, closer to noon. Last night he was up more and I wonder if it was because his nap was so early in the day. He also woke at 4:22 and I had to hold him till 5 to keep him asleep (BT was 6), otherwise he was raring to go for the day.  I think, regardless of naps I will have to shift BT. It is nice that he will now do closer to 11 hours at night, though. I will look back on Eloise' thread at that routine to shift his day. He has done 2hr+ independently before. I am considering trying to extend using APOP, just holding and patting a bit in my arms for a few naps. Do you think that would be a slippery slope to a prop?

[scucci1979]

Becky, i would try that for the first day and then see if he can do it the second day. I believe that the one nap will gradually extend once it is fully established. 

I don't know what is going on with Alyssa today. She had an amazing night. Slept a little over 10.5hours. Official wu time was 6:30am and I took her out at 6:50am.  Put her down for her am nap at 11am and the little angel started chatting and fussing a little. I went to check on her and she stood up wanting me to pick her up, so I left her as my presence was just making her more excited.  I am now listening her to the monitor trying to settle.  I think I may have to go pat her.  Sometimes I think of jumping to a 5hr A and see what I get. I think she could of done it easily today as she was in a good playful mood.

[aidenmc]

Well, best laid plans...DS crashed when I nursed him this morning. Debated waking after 20 minutes and trying for a lunchtime nap but he was still in such a deep sleep then that I didn't heave the heart. A 1.5hr nap and he seems a little tired.

Sabs your lo just keeps speeding ahead doesn't she.

[MommaBrooke]

So horrible bedtime somehow led to amazing night of sleep.  Lyanna had a 20min pm nap then fought bedtime, and finally fell asleep after over 4.5hr A...So last night I decided I was really going to start pushing for one nap.  She's fighting naps and bedtime like mad, and just seems unsettled during her night sleeps (things that never woke her before have been waking her, like the air conditioner turning on, etc.).  I just decided I couldn't fight it anymore, and I am not cool with a 9pm bedtime. 

Luckily, she got a good 10hr sleep in (not even an OT wakeup!)  and I could start fresh this morning. She went until past 11am before her first tired yawn, so I fed her, changed her, and she was still not ready for her nap...read some books in her room and she finally had a couple more yawns (she usually has to yawn 3 times before she will even consider sleeping), so I put her to bed.  She went down without a fuss, no crying or fighting.  And she's already been asleep for about an hour   Hoping for a 2hr nap, which would make wakeup at 1:45 and bedtime 6:15/6:30, maybe even closer to 7pm if she can go for 5hrs like she wanted to lastnight.

[scucci1979]

She is ahead of the game. She slept for 1hr and 25min, so I am thinking UT as she normally gives me more then 1.5hours. The thing that scares me is that I don't know if she will give me a nice long nap when she is on one nap. I am hoping it will take a month before she gives me a nap that is longer then two hours.
Aiming for an A of 3hrs and 45min today for her CN and no longer then 30min.

Brooke, I am curious if you try 4.75hours tomorrow morning, will she give you a nice long nap. I should take my own advice here. LOL

[Edesanja]

Sorry Claire, I missed the fact that 1hr+ 2hrs = 3hrs day time sleep . That IS a lot. If you're constantly having to wake him we might need to think about cutting the AM nap shorter so that he can use more of his nap time in the PM.

Becky, what's your bfing routine with Samuel? Maybe you need to tweak it to avoid him falling asleep. Both my kids only drank to eat, so I didn't have a problem in that regard and could feed reasonably close to naps. You might need to ask someone else about that. APOPing him...hmmm... considering your situation it definitely is risky. If you've been doing it already do you think he's nearly out of the OT? Because if he's caught up a bit I would be tempted to stop I think.
As for getting a long nap in the middle of the day, some los take to it straight away and others need time. E only did 1.5hrs to start with so we did earlier bed times and after what was probably a couple of months she started sleeping 2hrs. J started of with 3hrs15 as soon as I started 1 nap days, but after about 2 weeks they shortened right down to 1.5hrs and I was so disappointed!! I think that he'd just adjusted to 1 nap though. After a week of it I pushed the nap out by 15 mins then 30mins more and he started sleeping 2hrs15ish.
The other things is if they DO do a shorter nap when on 1 nap - see if you can resettle them (either by leaving them as long as you can to let them fall asleep themselves OR do whatever it is you do (PD etc) to get them to try and go back to sleep). It's too easy to just rush in and get them when you hear them and think "bummer, they only did 1.5hrs" but if they've woken tired they might go back to sleep!


Brooke, I guess you are close to having a 1 nap day! 9 o'clock bedtime - wow!

Sabrina, I think you should take your own advice tomorrow too

[aidenmc]

Jenny, I started BF before sleep at about 3-4 mo because of his reflux (I struggled to get proper feeds into him and he nursed better when drowsy - actually I started by getting him quite drowsy or asleep then nursed). Since then it has been part of his wind down. He never nursed for comfort (he uses his paci for that) so as soon as the milk is gone he is off. He only falls asleep (or almost asleep) when he's very tired. Sometimes he looks close but I keep him awake and he gets a second wind so goes down awake. I started recently for the morning nap, nursing then going to shower while he plays then wind down and into bed. Usually this works. This morning he was quite tired for some reason. I was intending on just giving him that feed then getting on with the day.

I wish he was less tired in the morning. It would be easier to accept the idea of just jumping to one nap. He copes fairly well with the missed sleep but I do feel bad when he is up from 10am till bedtime.

[clairebear79]

Yesterday's plan was 3hr 1st A time, 45min AM nap, 2h 45/3hr 2nd A time, 2hr PM nap, 4.5hrs A time to BT to make a 13hr day.  Here's how it went:

Wake:  5.15
Nap:    8.25 - 9.15 A = 3h 10 S = 45m (PD at 8am.  30min OT waking - took 5 mins to resettle.  Woke him after a further 15mins)
Nap:   12.20 - 2.20 A = 3h 5  S = 2h (PD at 11.55. No OT wakings.  Woke himself at 2hrs)
BTPD:   6.25, asleep  6.55   A = 4h 35

Total day length = 13h 40, total sleep = 2h 45

He started showing tired signs just 1.5hrs after WU.    Took him ages to settle so his 1st A time ended up 3hrs 10.  Of course I got an OT nap - woke at 30mins (luckily self settled in 5 mins). I still went ahead & woke at 45mins sleep.  He was ok but head shaking a lot (tired sign) during the following A time.  PD for PM nap so he'd be asleep at 2hrs 45 A time & he didn't settle for ages.  Thankfully he did a really good pm nap & handled the final A to BT reasonably well though by the end of it he was flopping all over & laying his head down so I know he was really tired.  Took AGES to settle to sleep.

We had quite a few cries out in the early part of the night.  This morning he woke up at 5.15 so that was 10h 20min sleep.  That was less than we had yesterday, before we cut the am nap.  TBH I don't know what to think    I'm suspecting the only trouble he's having is OT    Maybe 3hrs day sleep IS enough for him    He was doing 11hr nights consistently only a couple of weeks ago.

I can't decide if he's building OT from the long A to BT or if its because his days are creeping longer & longer.  I try & try to keep to a 13hr day today but if he doesn't settle well for his naps it stretches the day out longer than we want.

Today I PD for his AM nap at 2.5hrs as he was fussing a lot.  He fell asleep within 5 mins......and woke up 40mins later, happy.  Now this leaves us in a predicament for today as his PM nap will fall before lunch, & then we have a VERY long A time until BT.  Or I have to do a CN & stretch the day further, or just do EBT which will guarantee us a 4.30am WU call tomorrow.     We are in such a pickle!

[Edesanja]

3hrs day sleep does seem on the high side but it's totally possible that he still needs that much. He definitely sounded OT with those wakings in the early part of the night etc.
Could you get him back to sleep after his 515 WU?
You may be able to stretch his middle A time a bit today since he had an UT nap (UT because he 1. went to sleep early 2. woke on his own 3. 40min nap would indicate UT). I would push it as far as he will allow (some los will do a full A time on an UT nap- not saying he will, but he may well be able to go quite a bit past the 2hrs45 he does on a regular A time and nap). Even if he wakes up early from OT, I think it's still your best bet because he might resettle because he still needs more sleep. And if he can't himself you will still have a chance of APOPing him. Otherwise you are likely to just get the same EW

[clairebear79]

Could you get him back to sleep after his 515 WU?

Not a chance!!!!!  He doesn't respond to any forms of AP at all.  If only he would!!!!  Rocking & feeding doesn't do anything (tried MANY times & failed) & so we usually leave him to see if he will resettle.  Occasionally he will, but not often.  This morning he was happy to lay & babble in his cot until 6am when we got up.

I would normally also think that 40mins was an UT nap - but could it be that its an OT one?  We usually get 30mins for OT but I can't quite believe he would be UT, especially after less day sleep yesterday & a shorter night & all the wakeups that would suggest OT.  He was showing tired signs after only 1.5hrs this morning which is why I PD so early - & he fell asleep really quickly.  Since the short am nap his dad took him out for a walk & he has done nothing but yawn & fuss - surely if he was UT he wouldn't be doing this would he?

I PD for his PM nap at A = 2h 50 aiming for asleep by 3hrs, as he usually does 3hr 15 A time after a 1hr nap & he did 3hrs yesterday after his 45min nap.  He's still awake & chattering to himself now at almost 3hrs 25 A time & TBH it sounds like he's trying to settle & starting to struggle.  I suspect we will get an OT nap here.  I find he will resettle himself when OT but almost never sleeps as long if its an OT nap.  Once he's done over an hour, if he wakes I have no chance of helping him resettle - he'll be too awake even though he's not had quite enough sleep iykwim?  I too suspect we will get another EW tomorrow.  But hey - that's nothing new in this house.  I'm kinda used to it now  

Am I just keeping him stuck in some kind of UT/OT cycle?  I'd really like to get us out of this mess we are in but we always seem to have a few good days then it all goes wrong again.  I know thoughts are that he needs less day sleep & longer A times, yet every single time I try to push them out he just gets severely OT.  I really don't know how to help him.  Is it just that our day is too long?

ETA: I was right about the pm nap - asleep at 3h 30 A time.  30min OT wake up - resettled & then woke again at 1hr 10.  Changed nappy & left to resettle - not looking likely.  I really don't know whats going on with my LO - I have no idea why its gone totally pear shaped today 

[aidenmc]

So, after a 4:48am wakeup, I gave him a 45 minute am nap. Fingers and toes crossed for a pm nap. I just feel he is so tired by bedtime he just conks out, which is nice as there is no fighting or waiting him out. He will then do a fairly good stretch of about 3 hours. But I still have the sense he is OT. Tomorrow he will only get one nap again as I am graduating in the afternoon.

[scucci1979]

I too would try to push out that second nap for today. Clair, thinking out of the box here, can you push that first nap out a little, cap it then do a longer pm nap?  I really think once bt is moved a little later, you will get that later wu time.

Congratulations on the graduation. Crossing my fingers for a good pm nap.

OMG ladies, Alyssa woke up at 7am today. I am shocked. I was up since 6am waiting for her to wu.  LOL  Put her down 4.5hours later and she went down like a breeze.  I was going to wake her up 1.5hrs into her nap, so I can fit in a short CN.  I don't think she will give me a good three hour nap now. If I let her sleep for two hours she will fight her pm nap and then we will be in an OT mess for bt.
so here is what I am thinking for today:
wu 7am
nap 11:25am-1pm
nap 4:30pm for 20min. I have to AP this nap with the car or stroller as she won't sleep in her cirb.
bt 8pm

I really hope I am doing the right thing. When she can handle 5hrs of A time, then I will take the plunge and let her sleep as long as she likes. 

[emily3434]

claire - we had the same schedule as you did yesterday (at different hours of the day) first A, nap, second A and pm nap.  we also had a shorter night than usual! with an earlier wake up!  so interesting.  I am also thinking he is OT, because he did used to do an 11-11.5 hour night easily.  I am also wondering if I should cap the pm nap at 1.5 hours.  I'm not sure, since I am already waking him from his morning nap, it makes me sad to wake him twice!!  but if it gets a good night sleep, it is worth it.

sabs congrats on the nice wake up time!!!