waking in evening after bedtime and EW

[mmom]

((HUGS))) I hate days like this.  OK, has he had a BM?  Is he constipated?  Did it sound like a pain scream or OT?

I would have skipped the rice tonight and just done a BF and bed.

If you are worried about the weight gain, I would definitely hop over the to the BF board. http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?board=12.0

Can you write how your day went it EAS format?

[Shiv52]

Having a think but can I just check do you feed at that 5am ish wake up? If you are BFing it is not uncommon at all to do a DF and a NF at this age.  You may find if you fed he would settle back to sleep and it would get rid of that EW.  Am going to have another read through but that thought occurred to me from your first few posts and wanted to check with you.  My DD is about a week younger than your DS and we still have 2-3  night feeds.

[trimbler]

Ok thanks! No signs of constipation, BMs occurring at least once a day as before - although sometimes now when he should be napping, which isn't so good! Found he'd passed a bit before the dreamfeed last night too, although for once he was deeply asleep when I came in, but had to change him of course... Screaming was different to how the OT screaming usually is, although I wouldn't be surprised if it was both.

As for night feeding - DS has been sleeping through till 6-7am (even later if we all overslept sometimes!) from the dreamfeed since he was about 8 weeks - more recently (in the last month or so) he's been waking a bit more but not fussing, just tossing and turning a bit, so not obviously hungry and I haven't been feeding him as it seems he's just trying to get back to sleep himself. Just in the last couple of weeks or so he's been more vocal when he wakes, including EW. We went down to 5 feeds from 6 last week, when he had started taking hardly anything at the last feed before bed, as it had got so close to the previous one. Since then his feeds have been quite variable, sometimes he's distracted, especially if we're out, sometimes he seems to be in discomfort or OT and sometimes he'll take a really long feed and from both sides (which he never used to do). On days when he does these long feeds I'm quite sure that he's getting plenty, but maybe we need to work on the distraction/OT/pain and then he'll feed well the rest of the time?? Will go on other boards about this as you suggested...

Ok, so yesterday (and today so far...):

0400-0500 think he was awake all that time, although not fussing, just tossing and turning
0500-0630 probably in and out of sleep, or maybe in light sleep for this whole period (I was still awake!)

0630 Up and E (also discovered a little poo from the night - oops!)
(0745 runny baby rice with EBM, 2 tsps max)
0840 S
0915 woke me up from my nap crying! Tried until 1015 to resettle, no success - really screaming, different from usual

1030 E
1130ish S in sling until around 1330, a bit interrupted but mostly asleep for that time
1330ish A time before feed (shopping and tummy time)

1430 E
then tried to get to sleep from 1535... (more screaming)
1600 S (finally!)
1640 woke screaming, tried to resettle for 10 mins before giving up

(1700 a little rice and nappy+creams)
1720 E - with lots of crying and fussing, so didn't finish until around 1805
bath and into bed 1820 but didn't settle until
1850 S

(no evening waking)

2210 dreamfeed (and nappy change)

0300 woke but resettled himself quietly - not sure how long he was awake for
0545 woke, calm and trying to get back to sleep but I don't think he managed it - gave him comfort blanket 0620

0630 Up and nappy (must have poo'd a bit earlier but didn't hear/smell it until we got him up)
0645 E
(0745 pear, maybe 1tsp?)
0840 S
0905 woke crying but tried to resettle himself, I went in and put hand on chest when he got frustrated (the crying was more usual this time and he resettled quite easily with a little help)
0920 (?) S... still asleep 20mins later...

Hope that makes sense and thanks again for your help!

[trimbler]

Aaaaarrrrghhhh!!! THE WORST NIGHT EVER!!! Ok, maybe that was a bit melodramatic, but after a pretty good day (for us), last night was absolutely awful - what went wrong??? No dirty nappy, didn't seem hungry, was it because we stopped using infacol a couple of days ago, or teeth, or starting pear???

Yesterday's 'EASY':

0630 Up and nappy (little poo found on waking)
0645 E
(0745 pear, maybe 1tsp)
0840 S
0905 woke crying but tried to resettle himself, I went in and put hand on chest when he got frustrated
0920ish S
0950 woke - was trying to get back to sleep again, but didn't quite manage this time

1030 E
1200 S
1310 woke, resettled
1320 S
1415 woke happy

1420 E
(1520 rice, 2tsps max)
1610ish S
1630 stirred but was trying to get back to sleep so I let him, thinking 20mins wasn't really enough - he soon got back
1700 woke

1735 E
didn't seem as tired as previous evenings but still tried for an earlier bed at 1830...
1905 finally S

2215 E dreamfeed

then stirred maybe around 2330 for maybe half an hour
0200-0300 awake but trying to settle himself and finally managed
0345-0530 alternating between trying to settle himself and needing help - finally chewing on DH finger seemed to work!
0620 awake again
0630 Up

Horrible, horrible, horrible!! And now we're all zombies from lack of sleep, but I'll try not to put him down for his first nap too early, not sure if that's right... Thing is he used to be so good at night, and even when he has woken in the past he's resettled himself without too much trouble - so I know he CAN do it, I haven't been using props, but something must be wrong,... Previously, even if he hadn't napped at all well during the day, we could count on him crashing at bedtime and sleeping through. Do you think I'm letting him sleep too long in the day now so he can't sleep so much at night??? Or is it more likely to be other factors more out of our control??? This post started out with getting to sleep well at bedtime but then waking in the evening and early morning - that EW has just got earlier and earlier each day and now is a NW at 2am!! And despite trying to give him an earlier bedtime he's just not settling until the usual time... I'd swap back to the EWs now if I could instead of this no-sleep situation! HELP!!!

Ok sorry for my dreadful moaning, I'm not good on 2h sleep - if you have any tips on how mummies get back to sleep after long NWs that would be much appreciated too!

[trimbler]

Just re-read the FAQ about night wakings - do you think we should stop solids for the moment??

[mmom]

((((HUGS)))) How long has your LO been on solids?  I am sorry, I don't have to go back and re-read as I am getting ready for work.  If I am thinking correctly, you just started right?  If that is the case, I would stop for now and see if that helps.

What about medicating during those times?  Do you think there is a tooth looming?

[trimbler]

Ok yes we just started with rice in the morning only last Friday and Saturday, added an afternoon 'meal' of rice Sunday - Tuesday and substituted the morning rice with pears from yesterday. I'll try stopping the rice in the afternoon and carry on with pears in the morning for now as it's so runny I don't think it could cause constipation or anything like that... Are you suggesting Calpol or something when he wakes in the night? There could be a tooth coming, he does go through big chewing phases and often seems to be trying to scratch his gums with his fingers. I guess I worry about getting into a habit of using Calpol too much - do you think I'm worrying unnecessarily and should just try it one night? Thnaks!

[mmom]

I would stop rice completely.  Pears shouldn't cause irritation.  But each LO is different.

Maybe try Calpol before bed and see if if helps?  How long does that last?  I always try Ibuprofin before bed, because it lasts longer.

[trimbler]

Ok thanks, will stop rice until things improve! Will see how tonight goes (since he's already in bed now) and if no improvement will try Calpol tomorrow, since we have that but don't have Ibuprofin - and it kind of 'feels' safer to me? Do you think our routine should be workable as it stands? Do you think it's probably other issues causing him to wake?

[trimbler]

Phew! Much better night last night So now it's (maybe?) back to the original issue again! Took a good 30-45mins to get to sleep last night, DH thought it was probably teeth as he didn't seem OT (to start with anyway!) and kept wanting to chew, but that then seemed to hurt him more... Used Calpol, and although there was some stirring in the first hour or so after he finally got to sleep (7ish), he then had a good night until waking at 0530 - a bit too early for our liking, but at least there was good sleep for all of us before that!

So, back to the original issue - just had a quick question, maybe I've only just understood something, or maybe I'm just confused! After an EW, if he doesn't resettle to sleep before Up time (in our case 0630), we've been keeping him in his cot with hand on chest or giving him the comfort blanket (almost dropped back to sleep this morning with this - only a heavy freight train messed that one up!), then not getting him up properly until Up time. The exception to this would be if he's really distressed and needs picking up - we won't leave him to properly cry in his cot for more than a few seconds, moaning/fussing's fine though. Anyway, then once we've got him up, I've been trying to keep him properly up for 2h, even if that makes the total A time much longer (eg 3h this morning), so as not to let him get into the habit of catching up on missed night sleep during his first nap - is that the right idea? I do find though that in this case he's really tired when he does go down (OT), so I don't try to stretch that A time any longer... but do you think I should? Then is the idea that even if he does an OT 30min nap, he might resettle (As this morning) or even if he doesn't, the rest of the day just runs earlier and ends up with an early bedtime? If that's right, maybe I should try and stretch his first 'up' time to 2.25h even if he does get really OT?? Or would I only do that if he actually got back to sleep after an EW? Thanks!

[mmom]

You are not going to him when he is fussing right?  You only go when he does a proper cry?

What was his bedtime last night?

When my LO was that age, I always went with his appropriate A time from when he woke, so that I could get a 1st morning nap.  If the EW's continued, then I would try to push the A a bit in the morning.  What did your day look like yesterday?

[trimbler]

Yes that's right, I leave him if it's only light fussing and he's still trying to resettle - if the fussing continues for a longer time and isn't interspersed with periods of settling then I'll try to reassure him so he's not fussing for hours!

Yesterday's 'EASY' then:

(several wakings in the night but can't have been as long or loud as I can't have woken enough to make a note of the times!
0545 woke, no resettling)
0630 Up and E
(0740 pear)
0835 S (30mins - OT nap!)
0905 woke and resettled 0915 (30mins again)
0945 woke and resettled quickly (just 10mins)
0955 woke, no resettling

1030 E
1200 S (1h 10)
1310 woke, no resettling so up at 1340

1400 E
1530 S (1h)
1630 woke, couldn't resettle, so up at 1700

1730 E
1820 in room for bed, screaming lots... took Calpol
1900ish asleep finally - though kept stirring over the next hour or so

2230 E dreamfeed (later as we were watching something and he didn't even wake!)

0530 woke, never managed to get back to sleep
0630 up and E...

Any ideas??? Thanks again for your help! Would you suggest then, just getting him up when he wakes (even if 0530) and then he'd go down again 0730-0745? I thought that would just reinforce the EW, I guess I'm not quite understanding...

[trimbler]

Urgh seems we just can't have a good (ok, better) night and a good day! Maybe when he's had a bad night's sleep he's more able to nap well to catch up during the day?? Today he had a 30+30+45min 1st nap (not so bad, given that he's only recently started napping slightly longer without waking and resettling), then the last two were 30mins and he's so wound up and hyper and OT now Trying for an early bed, but not optimistic...

[mmom]

Sorry your day isn't going well.  I don't think you should start the day at 5:30.  I think you should leave him to fuss until the cry is no longer a mantra cry. Even if that means he is fussing for a full hour.  Of course if the cry is no longer a mantra cry, try to settle him.  Then keep trying until you reach a desired time or he is asleep.  I will say that I always wanted a wake up time of 7, but I didn't try to settle until then.  If he woke at 5:30, was crying and I couldn't resettle, I just started the day at 6/6:30.  

If he wakes at 5:30 and you try to settle to 6:30/7, that hour still counts as A time.  So you want to start the A from there.  you are doing a lot of resettling for that 1st nap, because he is OT.  You may find that if you get a good first nap, you will get better 2nd naps.

If you find that you can't eliminate EWs, then you can have a set nap time to start from.  For example, you can say you won't put your LO down for a nap earlier than 8:30/8:45 and deal with the resettling as you are now.

I am having a hard time reading your EASY.  Did your day go from 5:30 - 9 at night?  

[trimbler]

Ok sorry my 'EASY' was hard to read - I just set it out in blocks of what should be E(A)S - but the S bit is usually broken up since he's never taken a decent nap all the way through (well, I could probably count the number of times on one hand and the last time was 2 months ago!). He woke at 0545 but we didn't get him up until 0630 - he was just fussing. We tried to end the day around 1820 but he didn't actually get to sleep until about 1900 and woke a couple of times during that first hour. Does that make more sense?

I guess we're doing the set first nap at the moment, but maybe if we just start the day when he wakes then we'll already be in line with BST when we 'spring forward' at the end of the month... do you think that could work? Btw last night he actually got to sleep around 1830 (still took a little time), woke 2145 for the dreamfeed, stirred (but no intervention) about 0400 and then woke 0540 - didn't get him back to sleep before Up time 0630.