Author Topic: Stuck on short nights - 9mths  (Read 3753 times)

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Offline *Liz*

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Stuck on short nights - 9mths
« on: March 05, 2011, 07:43:56 am »
Here I am to get someone else to help me think this one through  :-*

Megan woke at 4.50am, and that is too early  ::). I am not one to fret about the odd EW as that is just part of having babies, but we are out of control, and myself and DH need more sleep than we are getting like this.

We have been getting EWs from Megan for months. Every since she started napping better. As a little baby she was always very unsettled overnight but did do a 12 hr night. I doubt she is a 12 hr night sleeper anymore.

We are pretty much stuck on 10 hrs now, and are still getting NWings on top of that.

What was happening (until it got worse)
Awake 5.30am
Nap 9-10.30am
Nap 2-4pm
Bedtime 7pm asleep by 7.30pm

Recently naps have been more chaotic, and the A's slightly longer. I suspected too much daytime sleep so was trying to cut naps back a bit but TBH I still keep getting 10hr nights. Does it matter? Yes - because J is about to drop his nap and need longer nights and I need them down at similar times in the evening. Plus extending bedtime is tricky because she gets hungry for her milk.

Yesterday was
Awake 5.20am
Nap 9.45 - 11am (hard to settle, ended up patting her bum)
Nap 2.30 - 3.30pm (ended up rocking to avoid another very long A time - back fired!!)
Asleep 6.50am

NWing 3.30am (fed), awake for the day at 4.50am

Any ideas?? I think this is a UT/OT cycle, and we are in the OT bit currently.

She is teething - but nothing cutting for now.

Ta  :-* :-*

Offline zoeselina

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Re: Stuck on short nights - 9mths
« Reply #1 on: March 05, 2011, 08:38:00 am »
I'm going to piggyback on this one, as we are having almost exactly the same problem.
Zoë


Offline ~Sarah~

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Re: Stuck on short nights - 9mths
« Reply #2 on: March 05, 2011, 15:42:30 pm »
How accurate are her tired cues these days?  I think it was right around 9.5mo that I had to start going completely on tired cues and she also started doing 1 nap days followed by 13hr nights!! I would have to nurse once sometime around 5am, but she is tiny and I knew she was just hungry but not ready to be up for the day.

It stinks bc some mornings she has 2.5hr A and the next day her first A can be 5hrs!  It swings that much at least once or twice/per wk.  We don't have much that we do daily though so it is conducive to going with the flow...not sure if you could try that??

Offline *Liz*

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Re: Stuck on short nights - 9mths
« Reply #3 on: March 05, 2011, 19:14:22 pm »
I do struggle with getting too housebound - it doesn't help my mood at all. I must admit i think I have been guilty of meddling too much - trying to keep the 2 kids naps overlapping - and really it makes little sense to wake Meg twice a day and still be getting naff nights.

DS is dropping his nap, so I am certainly not against moving to a more 'with the flow' approach. I was considering switching to allowing a nice long am nap anyway really.

Tired signs - hmmm - not seeing many at all. But she does have very clear ones so I may very well be just not waiting long enough for them. Whenever I plan trips out she isn't sleeping in the car either which is another sign she isn't really tired when I expect her to be.

Today has been a rubbish sleep day, so tonight will be whatever it is  ::) :P.

I will try and resist putting her down until she looks tired tomorrow am and see where that gets us  :-*.

Offline ~Sarah~

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Re: Stuck on short nights - 9mths
« Reply #4 on: March 05, 2011, 20:26:18 pm »
trying to keep the 2 kids naps overlapping
I did this for about a month and it really messed things up.

When I started letting Miss Bean lead the way I have found that I have to let her have her long morning nap and most days however long it is, that's all she will take.  Like this was yesterday

A  800
S 1145-1245
S  630 BT

Woke this morning just after 7.  So you see, she was barely awake 9hrs all day yesterday, but she happily slept all night long and went down for all sleep happy.  She is spirited if that helps you at all.

Sometimes if she naps early and short, after 4.5-5 hrs A she will seem sleepy but it is too early for BT.  I take her in her room and hold her quietly and she will get drowsy but never sleep.  I let her do this for about 15 min (Mr. Moo will watch a video about that long) and that holds her over for about another 1.5-2hrs just enough to make it to bed.  Then she will follow it up with a 12-13hr night.

Unconventional, but it is the only thing that has worked for me in the last 5mo.  Every time I *try* to do specific times it backfires.

HTH
:-* :-*
Sarah

Offline annette.xx

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Re: Stuck on short nights - 9mths
« Reply #5 on: March 05, 2011, 20:34:08 pm »
I remember at that exact age I sorted Jasmines EW with capping the first nap to one hour - I also set the time (I think maybe it was 10am) - then next nap just happened when she was tired usually 3 hours after ...took about a month to get perfect but worked a treat for me anyway!...

my sister had great results with doing what Sarah said and following tired signs at that age and she had varying times everyday!!

Annette.xx

Offline huntersmummyinoz

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Re: Stuck on short nights - 9mths
« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2011, 02:41:23 am »
hi liz :)

couple of Qs:
when she was doing this, were you waking her from any of the naps or was she waking on her own at these times?

What was happening (until it got worse)
Awake 5.30am
Nap 9-10.30am
Nap 2-4pm
Bedtime 7pm asleep by 7.30pm

have you found she is typically low, average or high sleep needs?

and what's your preference/ or what do you think would suit her best for the 2-1 switch? (ie. which nap do you want to shorten? how does she handle being woken from naps? does she prefer long/short first and last A times?)

i tried for about 2 weeks to shorten the am nap for ds2 so i would get some nap overlap and gave up, he would never do the longer 2hr nap for the second one so i chose to go the long am nap route again. was painful with no Y time for a while, but i would def consider taking whatever option will keep a 2 hr nap as it makes the final stages of the 2-1 soooooo much easier. and wouldnt you know it, ds2's nap is finally late enuf to get some overlap again and ds1 is starting to reach no napping territory... so typical!

what is J's napping/rest situation like? as H has showed signs 3 times in the last 12mths of dropping it and have managed to still hang onto a nap for now by cutting to 1hr and having one no nap day and one short nap day (30/40mins) a week seems to be the magic number of the moment. so let me know if you want ideas for him too. EDIT - just saw your post on toddler sleep ;)

kirry x
« Last Edit: March 06, 2011, 03:26:22 am by huntersmummyinoz »



Offline *Liz*

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Re: Stuck on short nights - 9mths
« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2011, 07:05:22 am »
Yes - I was often waking her - often from both naps really. But the nights were never good - she would have 2-3 NWings in a 10 hr night (and an exhausted Mama would just BF).

Megan - even as a NB - hardly slept. She was short napping by 3 weeks, and was doing good nights and was fine on it. Rarely an OT screamer. She never did an A time less than 2 hrs, and was on 3hrs by 6 mths. Dropped the CN just after 4 mths as she would not take it. I've always wondered if she is always OT - but that seems unlikely really - so I think low sleep needs probably with this current issue being caused by 'set nap times' after me not keeping up with changes.

She isn't bad with being woken from naps, and her first A has always been long.

I wanted to keep nap overlap - but I think all it is doing is making her pm nap too late - this 2-4 pm nap is certainly not working.

I ended up doing a long am nap with J as well. Back when M had good nights she was often doing 4hrs final A (and that was at 4/5 mths).

Yesterday was a mess
Awake 4.50am (tried to get her back to sleep until 5.45am)
Nap 9.45-10.30am  :o
Then fell asleep in the car at 1pm for 10 mins
Nap 3-4.15pm
Went to bed very easily at about 7.15pm

Slept until 2.30am (quick NF, and back down) then woke at 4.45 am  :o >:( :o. I rocked her for 30 mins and she was sleepy but just kept fidgeting, twirling her foot around etc. Woke and sang the second I put her down. DH tried again and did get her back down, but she woke singing again after only 30 mins. That was at 6am.

Rubbish, rubbish, rubbish.

Add to that her waking DS who then wanted a wee at 5.15am, sorted him and he went back to bed, only to have a poo at 6am. So he did less than 11 hrs after a no nap day. They only wale each other if they are in the light stages of sleep.

Offline huntersmummyinoz

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Re: Stuck on short nights - 9mths
« Reply #8 on: March 07, 2011, 10:30:12 am »
horrid when they wake each other isnt it!!

ok, so i'm thinking she needs a minimum of 4hrs A time, prob even up to 4.5 and somewhere between 2.5 to 3hrs naps.

wondering if she is actually closer to the 2-1 than you think as total sleep is quite low. ds2 dropped the catnap at 6mths to the day and the day he turned 10mths, flatly refused his 2nd nap :o so if she is as low sleep needs as you have described it could be the case.

so the plan, obviously will vary a little depending on wake up, but in an ideal world i'm thinking something along these lines.

wake 6am (may need resettles to get here...)
nap window 10 to 10.30am, let her sleep up to 2hrs15mins here (i've found this timing more conducive to their sleep cycles than the 2hrs often recommended)
catnap window 4 to 4.30pm for 30mins or awake by 5pm if falls asleep later
bedtime 7pm

my thoughts are with some nap cutting and some resettles in the am you can retrain her wake up time. HOWEVER, am also aware that you and others may not have the energy to do this atm. how do you feel about set nap times/windows? as sometimes when the routine has gone a little haywire then choosing a suitable routine and just sticking to it can sort things in a week or so...

can you 'guess' what an ideal first A time could be for her?
does she settle independently for sleeps?
how do you resettle?
how is she going with bottles/formula now? any chance her calorie intake has lowered? how many milk feeds is she on now?
which formula is she on now?
how are solids going?
any signs of teething?
is she swadddled/dummy or lovey?
white noise/room blacked out?

sorry for 101Qs but trying to see the bigger picture too.

also, if she is staying awake for that longer first A now, be sure to give her a snack and milk if she is still having 4 milk feeds before the nap.

any APOP options?

thinking of you hun. and what ever plan we come up with needs to be something you and DH and your mum or others can manage atm. can also look at other options that could get you some overlap with J's nap too, eg. 20min + 1.5hr + 20 min nap. so let me know what you think.

more hugs coming your way :-*
kirry



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Re: Stuck on short nights - 9mths
« Reply #9 on: March 07, 2011, 15:17:00 pm »
Hugs Liz! You don't need this right now.
I have a feeling that she is closer to the 2-1.  I think Alyssa will be one one nap before her first birthday. 

Following along.

Offline banyan49

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Re: Stuck on short nights - 9mths
« Reply #10 on: March 07, 2011, 23:10:50 pm »
I have a four month old early waker as well. I usually left him babbling for an hour or two hours before I get him up at 6AM. I usually put DS to sleep around 6:30PM, which I thought was already early. But after so many EWing, I decided it could be only one of two things(I have tried other things like morning A time, CN etc): he is OT and need go to bed eariler (I thought of that but was afraid that he will wake even eariler) or he has low sleep needs. At this point, since he is realy waking up so early, so i decided to give it a shot yesterday and he slept from 6PM to 6:30AM. There are some wakeups/noises during the night, but he went back on his own. I am not sure if this will work again tomorrow, but it worths a try. I reread Healthy sleep habits, happy child and this is the solution for EW.

Offline *Liz*

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Re: Stuck on short nights - 9mths
« Reply #11 on: March 08, 2011, 06:18:26 am »
I think she is closer to the 2-1 than I have been thinking - she was super sleepy while she was teething her top 2 teeth - but still giving me 10 hr nights - and on the back burner of that she has gone crazy.

I'm also sure we are dealing with an element of habit here - she wants to get up and play after that length of sleep - partly because we end up having to get her up to stop her waking J.

Don't mind the questions  :-*

A time - looking like 4hr for the first A but possibly longer as she isn't sleeping past 1.5 hrs - she has never been prone to OT short napping - just tends to sleep longer out of exhaustion.

Settling - yep independent - I do feed before naps but it doesn't matter if I don't - and she goes down AWAKE. Megan is a very awake baby  ::). She rolls and tumbles and squeals etc until she nods off. Usually takes her anywhere from 10-30 mins. Not swaddled and a tummy sleeper. She has locked in
her cot but has no attachment to anything and doesn't use it as a comforter. She rocks her pelvis and
rubs her face into the mattress to fall asleep.

Resettling is difficult  :-\. If she is struggling to settle in the first place patting her bum usually sends her off. In the middle of the night I have always BF her back to sleep, obviously can't do that now, we either leave her to chatter herself to sleep or we sit and rock her.

She is doing FAB with bottles. Amazing for a 9 mth old who had never had one before. Same old issue of her being too busy to feed during active A time, and that is why she mainly has them before sleep. But she is taking 3 7oz bottles a day. I'm not against a small night feed at this stage either as I always did when she was BF, but she is sometimes doing without that now. She is actually on cows milk formula - I used some out of despiration last week when my supply crashed and nothing much has happened. Yes - the sleep is 'off' - but no blood, no mucous, and a very very happy baby when she is awake. And no major NWing issues either - just the EW. So I think we are good. She has been on it about 9 days now at a decent quantity.

She is pretty good with solids - sometimes doesn't eat as much as she should as she is prone to spoon refusing and just eating finger foods. But pretty good.

Teething - yes she is - constant at this age though isn't it?? Probably a few lateral incisors on their way but not cutting yet. We give meds if she wakes in the night - but she naps fine and settles fine without meds in the day.

No dummy, pitch black room, uses white noise to go to sleep but it doesn't run all night.

Megan is dreadful for APOP - my only real option has ever been feed to sleep - and I have lost that now. She is not much of a car or buggy sleeper. I can sometimes rock her to sleep, but that is more in the context of her being OT and unable to settle.

But she may be bad for APOP as I may be trying too early....

She is too hard to get to sleep for me to want to do 3 naps a day - she hasn't done that since she was 4 mths old really so I don't think she would anyway. I'm happy to loose the nap overlap A's it will come back soon enough when she gets to 1 nap.

My Mum cares for the kids when I can't. She is amazing and will do whatever I ask her to - so I can still tweak routines etc  :).

Another EW today at 5am. Woke chattering and wanted to get up to play.

So yesterday was
Awake 4.50am, back to sleep 5.30 until 6.40am
Nap 1 10.20 - 11.40 (had to wake her to go get J from preschool - he goes twice a week only)
Nap 2 3-4 (I woke her to preserve bedtime)
Asleep at about 7.20pm (did seem tired at bath time, but then seemed fine after it)

NO NWings  ;D ;D ;D, but woke at 5am. 9.5hrs  >:(. Tried to feed and resettle, but she was just chattering and refused her milk, so left her chattering and complaining until 5.45am, then got her up.

It makes the first A hard when she is doing that though - so a set am nap time may be what is needed.

Thanks so much for talking me through all this  :D :-* :-*

Offline *Liz*

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Re: Stuck on short nights - 9mths
« Reply #12 on: March 08, 2011, 06:18:48 am »
I think she is closer to the 2-1 than I have been thinking - she was super sleepy while she was teething her top 2 teeth - but still giving me 10 hr nights - and on the back burner of that she has gone crazy.

I'm also sure we are dealing with an element of habit here - she wants to get up and play after that length of sleep - partly because we end up having to get her up to stop her waking J.

Don't mind the questions  :-*

A time - looking like 4hr for the first A but possibly longer as she isn't sleeping past 1.5 hrs - she has never been prone to OT short napping - just tends to sleep longer out of exhaustion.

Settling - yep independent - I do feed before naps but it doesn't matter if I don't - and she goes down AWAKE. Megan is a very awake baby  ::). She rolls and tumbles and squeals etc until she nods off. Usually takes her anywhere from 10-30 mins. Not swaddled and a tummy sleeper. She has locked in
her cot but has no attachment to anything and doesn't use it as a comforter. She rocks her pelvis and
rubs her face into the mattress to fall asleep.

Resettling is difficult  :-\. If she is struggling to settle in the first place patting her bum usually sends her off. In the middle of the night I have always BF her back to sleep, obviously can't do that now, we either leave her to chatter herself to sleep or we sit and rock her.

She is doing FAB with bottles. Amazing for a 9 mth old who had never had one before. Same old issue of her being too busy to feed during active A time, and that is why she mainly has them before sleep. But she is taking 3 7oz bottles a day. I'm not against a small night feed at this stage either as I always did when she was BF, but she is sometimes doing without that now. She is actually on cows milk formula - I used some out of despiration last week when my supply crashed and nothing much has happened. Yes - the sleep is 'off' - but no blood, no mucous, and a very very happy baby when she is awake. And no major NWing issues either - just the EW. So I think we are good. She has been on it about 9 days now at a decent quantity.

She is pretty good with solids - sometimes doesn't eat as much as she should as she is prone to spoon refusing and just eating finger foods. But pretty good.

Teething - yes she is - constant at this age though isn't it?? Probably a few lateral incisors on their way but not cutting yet. We give meds if she wakes in the night - but she naps fine and settles fine without meds in the day.

No dummy, pitch black room, uses white noise to go to sleep but it doesn't run all night.

Megan is dreadful for APOP - my only real option has ever been feed to sleep - and I have lost that now. She is not much of a car or buggy sleeper. I can sometimes rock her to sleep, but that is more in the context of her being OT and unable to settle.

But she may be bad for APOP as I may be trying too early....

She is too hard to get to sleep for me to want to do 3 naps a day - she hasn't done that since she was 4 mths old really so I don't think she would anyway. I'm happy to loose the nap overlap A's it will come back soon enough when she gets to 1 nap.

My Mum cares for the kids when I can't. She is amazing and will do whatever I ask her to - so I can still tweak routines etc  :).

Another EW today at 5am. Woke chattering and wanted to get up to play.

So yesterday was
Awake 4.50am, back to sleep 5.30 until 6.40am
Nap 1 10.20 - 11.40 (had to wake her to go get J from preschool - he goes twice a week only)
Nap 2 3-4 (I woke her to preserve bedtime)
Asleep at about 7.20pm (did seem tired at bath time, but then seemed fine after it)

NO NWings  ;D ;D ;D, but woke at 5am. 9.5hrs  >:(. Tried to feed and resettle, but she was just chattering and refused her milk, so left her chattering and complaining until 5.45am, then got her up.

It makes the first A hard when she is doing that though - so a set am nap time may be what is needed.

Thanks so much for talking me through all this  :D :-* :-*

Offline huntersmummyinoz

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Re: Stuck on short nights - 9mths
« Reply #13 on: March 08, 2011, 12:48:28 pm »
hi hun,
just a quick reply (packing to go away for 3 nights tomorrow).

ok, so i would try a nudge longer first A time if she still isnt sleeping over 1.5hrs, try up to 4.5hrs and if that still isnt doing it, since she isnt prone to OT napping, then really push her for a 5hr occasionally to see what she does. if still no go, it could be a body clock kinda thing in that her second nap is her better/longer one as that's what she got used to and in that case you can look at shortening the first nap and then crossing fingers and toes that the second gets to 2 hrs... (nothing new to you here i'm sure ;) )

for resettling, if all that works is rocking then stick with it for now, can always reduce and stop it later when you have more energy but also because the main thing now is to get her used to going back to sleep at that time. do watch how long you let her sleep in for after a resettle tho as if you let them sleep too long it will take away from the nap and mess up the next night again.

also you could try leaving the whitenoise on all night. both my boys ended up not needing it to go to sleep from around 8/10mths but it def helps stop the EW here (masks traffic noise, neighbours, etc in those early hours).

oh and great news on cows milk formula ;D

if u r able to, log her EASY for the next few days and i'll have a look at where to next on the weekend when i get back.

more hugs hun :-*

oh, and quick Q for you if i may, when did you decided to go with the shorter nights for J? with ds2, i'm still playing with some nap cutting, but it is looking like he will get more total sleep with a short night (10.5hrs) and long nap 2.5 to 3hrs than by trying to keep 11+ hrs sleep and cutting his nap to under 2hrs.






Offline zoeselina

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Re: Stuck on short nights - 9mths
« Reply #14 on: March 08, 2011, 19:25:25 pm »
Just a question for those of you who go by the clock in this type of situation...

My LO (almost 10 months old) is currently waking up around 4.50am but I try to keep her in bed until 6 (although it usually ends up being that I feed her in the dark at 5.30 and get her dressed and up when she's finished her feed). So in reality she hasn't gone back to sleep at all... do I start "timing" her A time from 4.50 or 6?

This morning she didn't go down for her morning nap until 10, and that was pretty much because I didn't think she should go any longer. She went down without a fuss and slept for 1.5 hours. Her second A time was shorter (just under 3 hours) but that was mostly because we needed to go out in the afternoon. She slept from 2.15-3.30, but might have gone longer if I hadn't woken her to go out.
Zoë