Lack of sleeping at naps!

[Shiv52]

Wow they are amazing naps. 

Some LOs have their shortest A time in the morning so that is fine if you can't push it at the minute. 

I would be inclined to stick with 2.15 A time after each nap for a few more days then push it to 2.30 if you feel she'll manage it (and then 2.15 for first A time) and that'll stretch your day out. 

Here is some more info for you:

http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=85130.0

4-6 months                                                           Two naps, 2-3 hours each OR;
Gaining mobility                                                       3 naps; 2 2hr naps & 1 45min catnap
                                                                                10-12 hours at night

So technically with 2 x 2.15 naps she is about right for sleep but could do 2 x 2.30 naps if she would sleep that long especially if she is high sleep needs.  And if she was having such long naps I'd think she'd have no bother with 2.30 A time but you would know best x  It is fab she adds on to her nighttime sleep!!

One thing I am a bit worried about is I really struggle to get her to take a feed at 5 pm as she has such a huge feed at 3 pm that I think she just genuinely isn't hungry...so DD is having 3 big feeds and a snack before BT with some solids in the morning

Yes am sure she isn't hungry at 5pm but I understand you want to get her into bed.  Is she exhausted at 5pm or do you think she would last a bit longer.  If she's not wakening at night for a feed I wouldn't worry at the minute.  Hopefully in a week when your A time is a bit more she'll start being hungrier at that bedtime feed.

Also what would I do in a situation where I have to cut the AM nap short (baby group etc.)...would I give her an extra feed before her PM nap and just make this nap longer say 2.5/3 hours?

Yes I'd probably do this.  So long as the nap took me far enough into the day to get to a reasonable bedtime.

Is there any way you can AP a CN? 

[AvasMummy]

Argh! Spoke way too soon about it all going pretty well!?!? This happened yesterday and today...put DD down at 5:15pm and she woke crying after 45mins but she is pretty easy to settle has just wanted a cuddle and then has gone back down. Her last A time of the day though has been about 2 hours (3:15 pm - 5:15pm) do you think it's UT and I need to push it out a bit more to 2.25 taking us to 5:30pm? Or shall I cap her 2 nd nap to 2 hours so it ends at 3 pm and keep BT at 5:15 pm? Its soo confusing because I've just been doing what I did the very first night and she went down fine but come to think of it this is when the clocks went forward (which I completely forgot about) so DD technically lost an hours night sleep so was probably genuinely more tired. The only other thing I can think of it that now it's pretty light outside so maybe she's being disturbed by that.

Another routine adjustment in order??

Thanks for all your help (must be sick of me by now )

[AvasMummy]

Actually tell a lie it's now 7pm and I don't think she actually went back to sleep...crying again?!?

[Shiv52]

do you think it's UT and I need to push it out a bit more to 2.25 taking us to 5:30pm?

This is what i'd be inclined to do. 

I think early bedtimes are great for a short term solution until A times are increased. 

Did she settle yet?

[AvasMummy]

Nope she's still screaming the house down...DP has just got back from work and is going in to try and settle her because now she is seriously OT, hope we don't get any NW because of this!!! Fingers crossed! I could kick myself for putting her to bed too early especially as it's on 15 mins difference! Grr! Oh well tomorrow is a different day...if only we werent going out for the day!

[Shiv52]

Hope she settles for you (or DP!) x

Enjoy your day out!!

[AvasMummy]

So last night was a disaster! Boo! DD finally settled at 8:30 after over 2 hours of screaming so has lost out on quite a bit of night sleep. Needless to say she is absolutely knackered this morning and has only managed 1 hr 15 A time...and even that was a push. So fingers crossed she'll take a nice long nap now to catch up a little bit?!? These babies are hard work! I'll let you know how tonight goes!

[Shiv52]

Keep me posted xx

[AvasMummy]

So this was yesterday:

E 6:30
A 6:30 - 7:45
S 7:45 - 10:45 (I let her nap until next E time to catch up on night sleep)
E 10:45
A 10:45 - 1:15
S 1:15 - 3:15
E 3:15
A 3:15 - 5:30
E 5:30 (you were right about pushing E a little later she took a much better feed)
S 5:45

DD then cried on and off until 6:45 when she finally settled for the night...we didn't have to go in to settle her so hopefully this is progress. May have been due to OT as the extra 15 mins A time at the end of the day may have been a bit too much for her and we were out at friends in the afternoon so probably a bit OS as well?!? Not sure?!? Today will also be a bit whacky as I have to interrupt her AM nap for baby group so i'm going to let her catch up during her PM nap as you suggested and then bring last E forward 10/15 mins so in bed by 5:30. She is obviously still a bit OT as only managed 1 hr 45 A time this morning but better than yesterday! x

[AvasMummy]

Just and update and creeping for a bit more advice from you mummies please

So last night DD went down at 5:30pm with minimal fussing and slept straight through to 6:30 am! Woohoo! But I feel we are taking a step back in regard to A time as now it is shorter than ever...so to avoid OT as she is not really ready for 2 naps a day but I can't force her to CN I have just been putting her down to sleep when she asks for it and letting her nap through until when i would normally get her up at E but sometimes this is leading to 3 hour naps?!? Is that normal?? I feel like all she's doing at the moment is sleeping (I must be the craziest mum alive to worry about sleeping too much). Or is it her way of dealing with less naps.

I am also still really stuck on getting her to take a BT feed. I feel like I am forcing her to E when all she really wants to do is go straight to bed. But if I don't get this feed in then she's only having 3 milk feeds a day and some solids in the morning which surely can't be enough.

I'm lost!

[Shiv52]

Here is a link that might reassure you:



http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=85130.04-6 months
                                                         
4-6 months                                                           Two naps, 2-3 hours each OR;
Gaining mobility                                                       3 naps; 2 2hr naps & 1 45min catnap
                                                                                10-12 hours at night

 So given that she is 5 months and not willing to take a CN, you are looking at 2 solid naps between 2-3 hours.  Given her age and high sleep needs she just isn't ready for longer A times to NOT beable to cope without these longer naps IYSWIM?  And at least that way it gets you through the day to not too early a bedtime.

So let her nap while trying to push out those A times a bit. 

So maybe something like:

6.30 Wake up  and milk feed
8.15/8.30am Nap 
10.45/11 Wake up and milk feed
2.25 A time
1/1.15 Nap (for 2.5 hours)
3.30/4 Wake up and milk feed
2.25 A time
5.45/6.15 milk feed and bedtime

Something like that?  5/5.5 hours daytime sleep is probably going to be ok without affecting night sleep.  Once you are sure OT is gone you can push the A time more if you feel she is ready for it. 

4 milk feeds (or 3 and a half) is fairly normal for this age.  Does she take full feeds?  Have plenty wet and dirty nappies?  She really does love her sleep!!

What do you think?

[AvasMummy]

Thanks for the link! It did reassure me and DD is definately at the top end of the average days sleep for her age. That routine looks awesome thanks! I'll put it in action tomorrow DD is still absolutely knackered could hardly handle any A time today and took a 3 hour AM nap and a 2.5 hour PM nap AND went to bed at 5:15pm?!? I'm hoping as she gets closer to the 6 month mark our day will sort itself out again...but when I think back to it all in one day the CN died, clocks went forward which I forgot about so DD lost an hour and we started solids?!? No wonder she's exhausted?!? On a positive note I think I've sorted the BT feed issue...I just did a half feed at 3pm rather than a whole one so she was hungry enough for a good meal before she went to bed. I figured this is the feed most likely to be dropped once solids are properly established...we just seem to be doing everything a little early at the moment

[Shiv52]

Hope its been going well xx

[AvasMummy]

Thanks for checking in!

It's not going too badly still a BT struggle but were getting there. Think DD is finally out of the OT cycle as we had some UT naps today (which then led to OT for BT! So probably OT again for tomorrow?!? Aargh!) and alot of crib chatting going on between sleep cycles so i'm going to start pushing those A times out again?!? Scary! I've read on some people's posts that a short morning A time can be an extension on night sleep which then messes up BT...what exactly does that mean? I don't quite get it. DD can't seem to get to a 5:30 pm BT so she's doing 5 pm at the moment and fingers crossed has still been going through to the morning but we did invest in some ultra dark blackout blinds for her room so she probably always thinks its night! Bless her. xx

[Shiv52]

If you're out of OT cycle and she has a good night you are probably find to assume you can have a fresh start tomorrow.

In terms of short morning A time it's more if your LO is having a disrupted night and wakes for the day and then wants to sleep again a half hour later then they may come to think the short time awake was just a part of their night and it means you may have difficulty with the rest of your day and getting a routine going if that's the case. Make sense? I don't think it's an issue for you xx