Daylight savings, EW, catnap question

[aidenmc]

Thanks for sticking with me on this. He feeds before sleep - this evolved earlier on when he was refusing feeds due to reflux. I found that I sometimes managed to feed after getting him almost asleep. Now it is part of the wind down and he almost never nurses outside of this time.

So, typically he bf's and solids as follows:
7ish solids
9:15/9:30
12ih solids
2:00ish
5ish solids
6:30/45ish
 
I pump one bottle, about 4oz which typically has taken between 10 and 12. DH has done this feed.
He used to take about one other feed in the night, but now he is tending to do more comfort feeds some nights, other nights he refuses the boob.

He was getting 4 feeds in the day before we dropped the catnap but now I can't fit in another one. I was trying to add a bottle after the afternoon nap as he was seeming to be very hungry at that time, but I am now suspecting it might have been a gs and not enough solids.

I might head over to the props board re. the paci.

Well he was asleep by 7 and he just stirred at almost 10. Seems he managed to handle that short nap okay! I am starting to feel more confident on this new routine. I am having to extend naps less often and he is settling better at bedtime. Thanks so much to both of you for following me on this.

[jackman]

Hi Becky,
I'm glad to hear that you are feeling better about the set naps. Just keep at it. They have been a god send for us even when my DS has EWs (still does from time to time). Just watch your lo tomorrow. He might be really tired on the short naps that he had during the day. Good luck.

RE: feeds, what if you BF before Brekkie? Might help with constipation as well since lo might be hungry and take in more liquids? We still give bottle first upon WU today. I think my DS was only having 3 milk feeds a day by this age.

[aidenmc]

Oanh glad to hear your lo was only on 3 feeds at this age. I was wondering and someone told me that 4 is still about the norm, but anyway I guess he's getting enough.

So after the bad nap ds actually slept from 7-10:15, resettled then up at 10:30. Up and down a few times till 4:25 (had a poop) then awake at 6:25!

I am wondering whether this was just a fluke or whether it was due to the shorter pm nap, or, actually because his nap ended before 4. If his afternoon nap goes too late (even if of normal length) could that contribute to EW? Or was it the slightly earlier 7pm bedtime? Anyway, it was nice to have that extra hour in him this morning. He was still fairly tired all morning but was asleep by 10 with few problems.

[jackman]

Becky,
You are making progress!!! YAY!!!

The later morning and somewhat good night's rest could be a combination of things. In fact, you hit on them. I think overall your DS is overcoming his OT which can be a contributor to EWs and using set naps to get decent naps which in theory should help with night sleep. It sounds like everything is slowly coming together and it should give you a good base as you start your sleep training to get you the STTN that you desperately want for DS and your family. Just don't forget to look at your diet or lo's diet to help eliminate gas.

Sounds like to me that it might be time for you to consider limiting DS to 2.5hrs if you think it gave you better nights' sleep. The pm nap ending before 4pm (since it was shorter) which brought BT earlier could definitely have been a good combination for you. Usually mom's choose the long am/short pm naps if their lo's prefer a shorter A time before BT.

You might want to give this a go again today and see if you get similar results. First nap of 1.5hrs and second nap of 1hr with BT being 3hrs-3hrs15min after pm nap.

Keep at it. There is a light at the end of the tunnel.

[aidenmc]

Hi again. So things are still kind of wonky. We had a couple of bad nights after that last post with bedtime happening too late - mostly because we had been out and were slightly rushed, but also because we are dealing with constipation issues which have him uncomfortable at night. Anyway he is waking all through the night and we haven't had another evening stretch of sleep since that night. Yesterday he woke at 6:10am and was very tired starting at about 8. I held him off and he was asleep by about 9:40. I was figuring that possibly the fact that first nap was slipping slightly earlier it might be why he's not sleeping much past 6 now (whereas he was getting closer to 7 with that 10 am nap). Anyway, yesterday he had a brilliant first nap until 12:00. I was a little worried about the consequences but needed the time to work and also figured that because his nights are so horrible, he can use any extra sleep he gets. And...he was yawning and rubbing his face by 2. Had his second nap from 3-4. Well, you'd think he'd have a good night but he was up and down all evening due to tummy issues and again through the night.

This morning, again up at 6:10. Even more tired and now quite fussy this morning (he seems to be getting more and more and more tired and I think now is struggling to manage the mornings. Anyway, today be slept only 1.5 hrs in the morning from 9:40-11:10 - go figure. Woke happy but yawning and tired and then quite fussy up to his next nap which was at 2 - I had to go in  and hold him at 3:10. He woke at 1.5hrs.

So, he's just woken 45 minutes after his BT which was 7. I am guessing OT. Am really hoping he has a few stretches of a couple of hours through the night tonight (yes, I know my hopes for his sleep would be considered a nightmare by most I'm sure). We have committed ourselves to sleep training after I defend my thesis on the 14th. I really hope that improves things. It is really hard when all the babies I know, are doing long 5-6 hour stretches. They are younger and their parents aren't doing anything different from what we've done. It's just so disheartening when I work so hard to get his naps right and he wakes soon after bedtime, which invariably means he will wake every hour or so for the rest of the night.

[jackman]

Bless you Becky! Giving you the hugest HUGS!!! I know it is so difficult not to compare yourself to other mom's and their bubs, but you have to give yourself a break. You have to ask yourself if their lo's have reflux or tummy issues like your DS. I truly think once you get the tummy issues/constipation figured out, your 5-6 hr stretch will come.

I know you are disappointed in your 1.5hrs naps, but IMO I think that is brillant!! 3hrs is probably the max you should allow your DS to sleep during the day even if he has a horrible night. And sometimes it can be too much which robs night sleep and can make lo's restless. All you can do is try your best to give your DS the rest he needs in a 24hr period. There are so many other factors that play into lo's night sleep and you can't control all of them no matter how hard you try. I speak from experience and even at 15mo, I am still trying my hardest to get my lo to STTN consistently by tweaking and tweaking his routine.

As I've said before, set naps have been our saving grace. At the very least, I know that my DS will recover during the day if his night has been a bust. So don't lose hope with them and know that setting good napping habits will give you a better chance at a good night when you resolve tummy issues and start your sleep training. Could you imagine what it would be like if both naps and night sleep were horrendous??

FX'd that things go well for you and your lo. Best of luck with your thesis.

Oh and yes, the theory for preventing EWs is to either cap that first nap or push it out by 15min.

[aidenmc]

Thanks both of you! You are both right in reminding me that the days are better. Not too long ago I would go and sit by his crib from 30 - past the 60 minute mark to httj and get him to take a full nap. I never do that now and only sometimes have to go in and extend a nap. Things are much more predictable now during the day. Thanks so much for helping me get there!

[aidenmc]

Spoke too soon. Now I have no idea what's going on. Last night ds was a little hard to settle at BT and wasn't asleep till close to 7:30 (I was aiming for 7). Did a few NWs and had a stretch of sleep from about 1 - 4. I gave him a half feed and he was asleep by 4:18. Then he woke at 4:47 and was wide awake. I tried until 6 to get him back to sleep and was back in bed for 5 minutes when he woke again ready for the day. So really, a 4:47 EW. This morning of course very tired. Was asleep in my arms by 9:30 but I couldn't get him down till 9:45. Woke at 10:30 and got him back down till 11:30. Was very tired and yawning a lot and fussing for sleep at 2. Got him to sleep by 2:30 with the tricks I have to use when he's OT. Anyway, he woke about 5-10 minutes later and WOULD NOT go back to sleep - I tried till about 3:20. So here we are at 4pm and he's been up since 11:30.

I am really not sure what to do. Wait for a 7pm bedtime? Go earlier? How earlier? I was thinking maybe 6:30...I really have no idea why he's doing this, and don't know what to do to get some more sleep into him.

[jackman]

Hi Becky. Hugs. Sorry to hear about the day. I'm not sure if I am too late, but I would put your DS to bed at 5pm as that will be 5.5hrs and a 12hr day. At the very least, no later than 6pm and hope that he sleeps well to make up for the bad day.

[aidenmc]

Well dh was home sick so I had to pick up my other kids at 5 then feed them all. DS wasn't asleep till 7. Took forever to get him down. He woke every single hour starting at 8:50 then up at 5:16 for the day. Of course he really wants to sleep now. It's before 8am right now. I am so at a loss as to how to improve things. Try for a really early BT tonight? I am just a little confused about how to do set sleep times when things go wrong like this. The problem with the early BTs is that I haven't seen them result in a later wake time. So teh day just gets shifted so early. Although maybe I should just do it once and then keep the later nap time?

[jackman]

Ok so it sounds like your DS is severely OT (you know this already) since he fought you at BT. Is he teething at all or going thru milestones? Both of these will cause resistance. Just make sure to medicate before naps and BT if you suspect teething. Also try a longer WD before naps or BT as it does help things a bit. The EWs sound like OT and if we can get your DS over this hump, your later WUs might come back.  

It might be too late for you as I don't know where you live or what time it is, but set your first nap at 9:30am when your DS WU are between 5-6am. Anything later than 6am WU then do your first nap at 10am. Let your DS sleep for 1.5hrs. If he short naps, then you pull your second nap earlier by the amount of time he shaved off his first nap. Otherwise, if your first nap was at 9:30am, then second nap should be at 2pm. If first nap was at 10am, then second nap should be at 2:30pm and have your pm naps be for 1.5hrs. BT should be 3hr-3hr15min after that second nap.

Summary:
WU before 6am
Nap #1 9:30-11am
Nap #2 2-3:30pm
BT 6:45pm/7pm (latest)

WU after 6am
Nap #1 10-11:30pm
Nap #2 2:30-4pm
BT 7-7:15pm

Also you have the option to always put your DS down for an earlier nap if you think he is just shattered. The only one I wouldn't is that first nap since he is EW. Watch his cues Becky. Hopefully we can get him thru this OT. Hang in there.

[aidenmc]

Thanks to both of you. Well I did put him down at 9:30 this morning. Will aim for 2 for second nap and a slightly earlier bedtime if he's looking like he's needing it. I was pushing him too much to stick with the routine as he became more and more OT. And he was taking longer to wind down at bedtime, pushing it too lat eon a couple of nights. Ugh, just when I think things are under control...but I do feel like I have a plan to tackle - thanks so much!

I was suspecting some teething but I think the only other things that are really going on are the fact that he's been crawling for a few weeks so he is really interested in exploring, and we still haven't conquered the constipation (but getting there I think). He has never tolerated gassiness well at night....

[aidenmc]

Okay so this morning was a 4:33am wakeup. Didn't get to sleep last night till 7:30. We are in major OT land here and cna't get out, although nis naps are still 3 hrs or approaching that - with more extending necessary now. I posted on the General sleep board as I feel like this is getting outside of Naps territory, but they said the whole day should shift back to make for a shorter first A time and early bedtime. THen once the early day is established consider moving it slowly. I dread the though of this, but the current situation is awful (and the NWs are sometimes getting longer now too). What do you think?

My thesis defence is THursday. Am so exhausted now but had a practice one today and it went okay. I will have revisions to do but hopefully not too many. Then I am done.

[jackman]

I agree with Jen. Just survive for now and we'll get you back on track once you are thru with your thesis. Follow your DS' cues.

If you are having long NWs (which I also am very familiar with), that means you might have to start limiting your naps.

Keep us posted.

[aidenmc]

The NWs are not super long, it just seems that dh can't settle him anymore, he ends up wide awake and dh doesn't know what to do with that. I have just been taking over as I can get him back to sleep fairly quickly.

Tried an earlier first nap of 9am, he woke after 45 minutes and I had to hold him until 10:30 as I couldn't put him back down. Second nap I aimed for 1:30is but it was a fight and he wasn't asleep till 2 and woke at 3. I held him till 3:25. I'm really thinking that the earlier naps are not a solution right now. It reminded me of past efforts to reduce A times to combat OT - it is just so much work on my part for very few gains. Anyway, after the 3:25 wake-up I will aim for bedtime at 6:45 ish hoping it's not too early or late. We shall see what he does.