Author Topic: Getting Desperate - Please Help!!  (Read 1525 times)

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Offline AJsMumandDad

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Getting Desperate - Please Help!!
« on: March 11, 2011, 09:58:28 am »
Hi

My 10 month old (4 weeks prem) DD is having terrible NWs - always has done but they are more than ever at the moment.  I've always had problems with naps too and she has for most of the 10 months been a short wake, short nap baby (mainly due to reflux in early days I think) so I have a hunch this is where the problem lies.  Anyway we are finally working on lengthening the A time and she can now manage usually between 3 to 3.25 hours awake time before the first and the second nap.  She has only given up the 3rd nap a few weeks ago.  I usually now get one good nap of an hour or sometimes just over (best is 1hr 20m) and the other one tends to be shorter - between 30 & 45 mins (short one tends to be mornings but not always).  I'm working towards getting or would love 2 x 1 hour naps at least.  I've been going off her cues lately but she can turn very quickly and if I miss it - she is OT and the nap is short.  I think most of the NWs are due to OT but tbh I've read the 10 reasons why a baby wakes and I think we have are experiencing most of them!

Anyway a question I have is what should I aim for her A time to be after the last nap and before bed - Should it be the same as the other A times i.e. 3 to 3.25 hours and should they all be the same or should they increase as the day goes on? We dont really have a set bed time as it all depends on her last nap time which can vary quite a lot but we do have a really good bedtime routine but it takes 30 - 40 mins so I can't really go off her for this.  I’ve tried so many combinations but because no two days are the same there are too many variables to ever seem to get it right.  Also, what are A times supposed to be around this age?  

We seem to be on a 6-6 day which I would prefer to be 7-7 but I’m not too worried about that now as the clocks are going forward soon so I’m hoping that will change it for me (not sure if it will be that simple!).  What that does mean tho is that I can not really do an early bed for her as I don’t ever want to put her to bed before 6pm at the earliest.  This makes it difficult if she wakes from her last nap at 2pm as it is 4 hours before bed and I know this can be too much for her (although has done it successfully once or twice in the past where we have had a good night of only 3 wakings),  

Yesterday seemed a good day – she had an hour nap in the morning, I knew she was OT for the second nap and she woke after 30 mins but I got her back to sleep (by rocking her in my arms & putting her back in the cot) and she had another 30 mins.  We put her to bed at 6:35 and she fell asleep at 6:55 (she had woke from the last nap at 3:30) and she didn’t stir till 10:05pm which is the best start she has had for a while.  She then woke again at 10:30, 11:45 till 12, 2:45 till 3:30 and once again after but I’m just too tired to even remember what time.

Can anyone please help me as to what is going on and what on earth I have to do to get her to sleep through the night?

How old is your child?  10 months old (4 weeks prem)
What’s his/her daily routine?  Wake bet 6&6:30, bf at 7am, breakfast at 8am, nap somewhere bet9&9:30 (anywhere bet 30m-1h), dinner at 12, depending on 1st nap sometimes bf before nap at 1:30pmish sometimes after bet 2&3pm, nap 3-3.25 hours after woke from 1st nap time can vary alot (anywhere bet 30m-1h sometimes a little bit longer if I’m lucky!), tea at 4:30, bf before bath & bedtime routine (usually 5:30pm), bed at 6-6:30pm
What’s nap routine?  As above
How long are naps?  As above
What's bedtime routine? Time?  Bf, bath, dressed in bdrm, read a story before putting in cot.  Usually bet6-6:30pm
Do you bottle or breastfed??  Breastfeed
How much? or how long?  3 times a day usually 10 mins each side (on & off a bit towards the end of each one).  Can have a night feed 2-3 times per week bet 3-5am.
If breastfed.. one side or both?? (at each feed)  Both sides every time incl night – will not take just one
How many wakes per night? Varies but far too many!  A good night would be 3 times.
What’s your LO like when waking at night? How long is he/she up? Sometimes stirs and requires dummy replacing or hand on back if at the beginning of the night so guess OT but in the early hours she is starting to be awake for longer periods i.e. 30-60 mins.  She always wakes crying and when we go to her and replace the dummy, she will cry when we go to leave so we end up staying with her and she livens up so we tend to sit with her until she has done her thing and is looking tired again so we rub her back until she drops off.  But then she can cry out and stir 10 mins after this a few times. Some nights she wakes bang on the 2 hour mark throughout the night.
When you go to him/her is she fussing or crying? Or is it a mantra cry?  As above.
What have you tried to settle??  Usually the dummy, rubbing her back, feeding as a last resort.  We only take her out of the cot if she is really upset.
What do you do for A time and how long is it?  Now starting to be 3-3.25 hours.  Try to get out of the house at least once a day even if just for a walk or to see gran.  Try to give her plenty of floor time with lots of toys.  Try to lessen these when 3 hour mark approaches.
Are there developmental issues such as teething or milestones?  She has been teething and seems troubled by these lots.  The top 2 teeth have been coming through for the past couple of weeks but they appear to be through the gum now.  She has just learned how to sit up on her own and is on all 4s rocking back & forwards so is trying to master crawling.  For the past few days she calls for me as soon as I leave the room when she is on her own so not sure whether sep. anxiety is part of the equation too.
Do they have a prop? If so what is it?  Dummy.  Did try to wean cold turnkey over Xmas – worst week of our lives so really don’t want to be without it!!

Offline mmom

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Re: Getting Desperate - Please Help!!
« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2011, 01:18:10 am »
(((HUGs))) I don't have time to fully respond, but I wanted to post this. http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=145285.0

I will come back tomorrow and really post.
Kara


Offline AJsMumandDad

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Re: Getting Desperate - Please Help!!
« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2011, 19:33:08 pm »
Thanks - I look forward to your post!  

I did read that link you sent me before I posted the first time.  My thoughts on it were that she has only just recently dropped the third nap so I would have thought it may be too soon for her to be starting the adjustment to one nap.  Also, the two of her naps together most days rarely add up to 2 hours and I thought this was the minimum they should be having at this age so how could I shorten them.  I think this is also why I cannot get to a bedtime later than 6:30pm most days and get the feeling she is OT.

Offline mmom

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Re: Getting Desperate - Please Help!!
« Reply #3 on: March 13, 2011, 12:03:17 pm »
Hmmm, you have a lot of issues going on.  Is the reflux controlled?  The developmental issues like crawling can really wreck sleep.  When did that start?  Have you tried medicating for the teeth?

I was going to suggest PU/PD at night, but with the dummy, that wouldn't work.  It is too confusing. http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=67675.0

Solids are well established?  

Do you want to tackle the NFs?

Your routine doesn't look bad during the day.   I would try and lengthen that last A though.  It looks like you have a nap from 2-3 right?  I would attempt to stretch bedtime a bit.  
Kara


Offline AJsMumandDad

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Re: Getting Desperate - Please Help!!
« Reply #4 on: March 13, 2011, 14:37:28 pm »
Thanks for your reply.

Yes the reflux is controlled and yes we usually do send her to bed with some pain relief for the teeth.  The getting on all 4s started a few weeks back - she hasn't mastered crawling yet apart from a little bit backwards, her new trick is being able to sit up on her own.  She is well established on solids with no problems there and the night feeds are probably more my issue of the quickest way of getting her back to sleep so I'm trying not to resort to that - she has not had a night feed for the past 3 nights.  Our issue is not really with getting her back to sleep - she is never really crying too much when she is awake for long periods, it is trying to stop her waking in the first place.

The other thing I have noticed is that for the past few days she seems to be yawning all day long - even when she has just got up from a nap.

She seems to want sleep now between 3hr20 and 3hr30 for both naps.  Should I use this as the last A time or try a bit longer?  When I have tried to stretch her what usually happens is that during the bedtime routine she will get really upset and arch back loads which is her sign that she is ready right there for sleep (and the cue I use for naps where I take her up and she will usually be asleep in 5-10mins) but
she could be in the bath when this happens so does this mean she is definitely OT by the time she gets to bed?  How can I deal with this?

The weird thing is we had a bad day for naps yesterday where both naps were only 30 mins long and I was dreading the night.  She stirred twice in the first couple of hours and then went 9 hours straight without waking - probably the best she has ever gone!  I just don't understand it.  If we recreated yesterday the night would undoubtedly be a disaster.  I've always said that the only thing consistent about my little girl is that she is inconsistent!!


Offline mmom

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Re: Getting Desperate - Please Help!!
« Reply #5 on: March 13, 2011, 14:47:21 pm »
A couple of things.  Sorry if this seems rushed, but I have my hands full and wanted to reply before I lose my thoughts.: If you noticed that she slept less during the day and slept better last night, she really could be starting the 2-1.  You would want to shorten one of the naps then.

The second thing is, if you are always using feeding back to sleep as a way of calming her, she now expects it.  I would aim to not feed during the night EVER.  Start doing PU/PD and you may find that she no longer wakes at all.

Have you taken the Know your Baby Quiz?  http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=52283.0 Is your LO low sleep needs? High?  Average?
Kara


Offline AJsMumandDad

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Re: Getting Desperate - Please Help!!
« Reply #6 on: March 13, 2011, 20:37:22 pm »
This was definitely a 1-off - when she has had 2 bad naps in the past, the night has been awful.  I'm not sure how I can shorten a 30 min nap and wouldn't really want to - when she has one of them followed by an hour one it's ok but when she has 2 of them she usually wakes up from the second very upset and remains fussy for at least an hour after.

I also do not feed her back to sleep.  When I do a night feed it is usually in the early hours say between 3am and 5am to try and settle her for the remainder of the night to try and avoid more wake ups.  She has usually already stirred before this a number of times and after the feed, I put her back in the cot awake and she can get herself back off then.

I did the Baby Quiz a couple of months ago and she came out as Touchy.  I did it again today and she came out as an equal Touchy / Angel - how strange!!

Sorry to ask these questions again but this is the bit I am having trouble with:
1. What should I aim for her A time to be after the last nap and before bed - Should it be the same as the other A times and should they all be the same or should they increase as the day goes on?
2. She seems to want sleep now between 3hr20 and 3hr30 for both naps.  Should I use this as the last A time or try a bit longer?  When I have tried to stretch her what usually happens is that during the bedtime routine she will get really upset and arch back loads which is her sign that she is ready right there for sleep (and the cue I use for naps where I take her up and she will usually be asleep in 5-10mins) but
she could be in the bath when this happens so does this mean she is definitely OT by the time she gets to bed?  How can I deal with this?
3. What are A times supposed to be around this age?

Offline mmom

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Re: Getting Desperate - Please Help!!
« Reply #7 on: March 13, 2011, 22:37:40 pm »
I also do not feed her back to sleep.  When I do a night feed it is usually in the early hours say between 3am and 5am to try and settle her for the remainder of the night to try and avoid more wake ups.  She has usually already stirred before this a number of times and after the feed, I put her back in the cot awake and she can get herself back off then.
You are still using feeding as a tool to settle though. I would really eliminate this.  If she is fussing, just let her fuss.  You only go to her if she is really crying and then use PU/PD.

The last A will depend on the nap. But generally speaking, it is the longest.  Most LOs have a short 1st A and then they lengthen slightly as the day goes on. 

A times at this age are generally 3-4 hours.  That is a huge range and some are doing more than that.  Your short naps could be a result of just needing an A tweak.

I would think in regards to bath time, that you generally have an idea of how the day went, so you would know if she is OT or not.  I wouldn't offer a bath if you have 2 short naps.

My LO is doing 3.5 hours on a 30 minute nap and he is somewhat younger than your LO.  It is not very BW, but you could always set a morning nap time of 9:30 with a 6 am wake up and then set another nap at 1:30 if it is 30 minutes or 2 if it is longer and then focus on trying to extend the 2nd nap.  Have you ever tried to extend that nap with PU/PD?  Then you could aim for a bedtime of 7/7:15.
Kara


Offline AJsMumandDad

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Re: Getting Desperate - Please Help!!
« Reply #8 on: March 14, 2011, 10:55:44 am »
I take your point about the feeding.  I am going to avoid this wherever possible. We had another bad night again on a 2 short nap day (7 wakings) and her longest awake time was from 1:05 till 1:40am but I didn't feed her, however when I tried to leave the room she would start crying so I just sat by her cot stroking her head until she was ready to drop off.  I can't really do pu/pd due to a bad neck/ shoulders plus she is one heavy girl and it seems to make her worse.

I am confused on a couple of things.  If I follow her cues and she is telling me she needs a nap after 3hrs 25mins, how can her A times be wrong?  I have tried in the past to 'stretch' her but if I go even 5 mins over, she becomes OT so quick that it can take another 30-60 mins to get her to sleep and I am definitely looking at a 30 min nap then - even 20 mins sometimes.  Also, if she wakes at 6am and I try a bedtime of 7pm - that is a 13 hour day.  I just get the feeling that this would be too long for her.  I realised that the day of the good night we had I was too tired to get up when she woke so I put her in bed with me (dont do this v. often) and after 30 mins she fell back to sleep for another 35 mins so this day was actually quite short for her (got up at 7:20 went to bed at 6:35).  I'm just so confused!!  Could it be that she is just soo tired that she has some catching up to do?

Offline mmom

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Re: Getting Desperate - Please Help!!
« Reply #9 on: March 14, 2011, 14:09:00 pm »
((HUGS)) for the rough night.  I really question how controlled your LO's reflux is.  NWs that long are usually pain related.  Either your LO is cutting a lot of teeth or the reflux is flaring - or both.  But there is something going on, other than a routine issue.

PU/PD at this age is really just laying them back down when they sit up. You can rub her to sleep, but then you are creating a new sleep issue that you will have to tackle at some point. 

Are you trying to extend naps?

If you really feel you can't push A times, then don't.  However, a lot of LOs will get used to their new As and nap times if you are consistent. :)
Kara


Offline AJsMumandDad

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Re: Getting Desperate - Please Help!!
« Reply #10 on: March 15, 2011, 16:40:05 pm »
I agree - it definitely feels like there is something going on as naps for the past 2 days have been really tough with lots of crying - I've had to rock her to sleep a couple of times which I don't like doing but I know she needs the sleep and its as if she's screaming at me to help her.  We would not do this for bedtime mind.  Yesterday she had 2x 4hours A time and only 2x 30min naps  :(.  Don't you just wish they could tell you what it is that's bothering them??

Sometimes I try and extend naps depending on whether she wakes crying or not.  A lot of the times she doesn't so I have given up trying on those cos as soon as I go in she just gets too excited.

We had a half-decent (for us) night last night.  She was asleep at 6:50pm and woke at 7:40, 10:50, 1:15 and then woke at 4:05 until 4:40 - I started off staying with her but then she just seemed too excited so I left her and went back briefly only when she cried.  She then slept until 7:35 which is a big lie in for her!  Am I right in saying that wakings early on after going to sleep are due to OT or is there another reason?

She also mastered crawling forwards finally yesterday so not sure whether this has any impact.

Offline mmom

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Re: Getting Desperate - Please Help!!
« Reply #11 on: March 15, 2011, 23:14:33 pm »
Yes, normally those early NWs are OT.  We often get them too, when my LO is teething or other discomfort.

I really understand your frustration.  I often wish my LO could express what is going on too.  It really isn't easy.

Crawling can definitely impact sleep as well. Unfortunately, all of these developmental milestones can really cause havoc around sleep.
Kara


Offline AJsMumandDad

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Re: Getting Desperate - Please Help!!
« Reply #12 on: March 16, 2011, 10:27:52 am »
Thanks so much for all your help - looks like I am going to have to 'ride the storm' for a while and see what happens when some of these milestones have passed.