Milk decreasing appetite?

[Little toes]

I'm not sure I have this in the right spot so pls move if I don't. Thx.

Ok, so dd is 16mo and has always had a bad habit of eating at night, which started with bf. When I switched to formula at 9mo I tried to extend the time between feeds and have been somewhat successful. But now ever since she had a stomach bug she's been dreadful for feeding. Tbh she drives me nuts. If it's a good night and she only has bt, midnight and am bottle, then she'll eat well during the morning. But I find after her nap - she takes 6oz, she'll barely eat. It's so frustrating cuz I know if she doesn't have dinner she'll be a hungry pain in the butt all night, eating every couple hrs. I'm due in a few months so I really need help getting her appetite back up. I'm thinking the milk is really decreasing her appetite, especially since most nights she'll load up on it.

A few questions. I've read that giving pediasure (tho I'm not sure if it's added or if it's a whole suppliment) at bedtime might help fill her so she doesn't wake as often. Not sure if that's a good idea for those days she barely eats. But then during the day for her nap I'm wondering if I should water her milk down a bit? I should also add that she's gluten and lactose, so she gets almond or rice milk. Also wondering if there are any vitamins or suppliments that'll increase her appetite during the day.

Hope that made sense. Thanks.

[lilisuze]

LT, that seems quite a lot of milk feeds for 16 months. I think by this age DS was down to 2, one in the morning, with breakfast, and the other before bed at 6.30pm?

I'm no expert but I think it totally is possible that she is overdoing the milk in favour of solid foods. Is she still having a night feed?

[Lissybits]

Leo has milk in the morning, afternoon after nap (just a little bit in a sippy) with his fruit and then at bedtime.
Too much milk will certainly take the edge off her appetite - it's a tummy filler!
At this age, she doesn't need a night feed - is there a reason why you feed during the night?

Have you tried giving a snack on waking after nap instead - or as we do (Leo loves his milk!) a smaller amount of milk with a piece of fruit? That would probably give her a bigger appetite for her dinner.

Leo has his main meal at lunch time - he always eats better and more at this time of the day -just a thought. And if he has anything else between meals (aka from our neighbours ) he's not really interested in his next meal
Taking her out for a run around before dinner may also help to increase her appetite!

Not sure what Pedisure is, but in my experience with Leo who was (and sometimes still is) a terrible sleeper, nothing we gave at night made any difference to his NW's. We tried ALL kinds of milk for the bedtime bottle, including Good Night milk, top ups of BM - the lot. If she has got into a bad habit, then that will be causing the NW's - NOT hunger at this age. You could post on the NW board for help there.

HTH a little  

[Little toes]

Yes I know it's a lot of milk and she shouldn't have that much at her age. The problem is lack of appetite, so on days when she barely eats, which has been most days since her stomache bug, then I end up giving her milk at night. I'm trying to find suppliments or ways of opening her appetite. Even on nights when she doesn't have much milk, she still won't eat enough.

[Lissybits]

Do you think she could still not be feeling 100% after the tummy bug?
Is there a possibility she could be teething? Leo always goes off his food a bit when there's a tooth lurking!
xx

[Little toes]

She's definately getting her 2yr molars, two of them coming in. But those take a while to come in, that's why I was hoping to get some ideas so that she doesn't lose weight or continue to rely on milk at night when she's hungry.

[Shiv52]

The problem is lack of appetite, so on days when she barely eats, which has been most days since her stomache bug, then I end up giving her milk at night.

It can take a few days (upto a week I read) for hunger to transfer to solids and to get LO used to not filling up on milk.  So if you decide to tackle the milk issue you would not offer extra milk and then resettle in the night without feeding (offer water if necessary) and get through to morning and then offer breakfast. But know it can take upto a week to see some progress. At 16 months milk in the am and pm and in a sippy with lunch is more than adequate.   I'm not sure there is any thing you could give to stimulate her appetite but I do think consistently cutting the milk and not feeding at night will certainly help eating through the day.

{{hugs}}  It may be worth tackling before the baby comes along as hopefully the NWs will decrease if she gets used to not feeding if she wakes.  

[Little toes]

At night when she's hungry she'll just keep screaming when I offer her water instead. It's hard to get thru the night when she's like that. I'd like to cut it out completely - the night feeds. I wonder if the almond milk isn't sustaining enough like regular milk or formula, maybe that's why she wakes so much?

[Mom to M&M]

I know it's hard but the more you feed in the night the longer the cycle will perpetuate. You may just have to bite the bullet and go for it - usually only takes like 3 bad nights if you are firm/consistent.

Almond milk is definitely lighter than regular milk or formula. Have you tried/talked to your doctor about coconut milk or hemp milk instead? Coconut in particular is such a great source of healthy fats. Maybe even mix 2 ounces of that into say 4 ounces almond milk? I'd try to get her down to two bottles day tops (16 ounces)...

[Shiv52]

I know it's hard but the more you feed in the night the longer the cycle will perpetuate. You may just have to bite the bullet and go for it - usually only takes like 3 bad nights if you are firm/consistent.

Agree with this.  Unfortunately it is a viscious cycle.  If she doesn't eat well in the day and you feed at night then she wakes up still not hungry enough to start eating properly and on it goes.  Maybe pick a weekend or a time when you have DH about and just go for it.  Take it in turns to settle her and just use a sleep phrase 'no milk, time for sleep, night night'.    Yes the first few nights will be hard but once you shift her hunger to daytime and more solids you'll all be sleeping better and she should be eating better.  I would say though that if you do decide to go for it promise yourself you won't give  in because if you start and tell her no milk, its night time, time for sleep and then give in a few hours later she'll be totaly confused. 

I wonder if the almond milk isn't sustaining enough like regular milk or formula, maybe that's why she wakes so much?

I'm not sure but I think alot of it is habit. And also a case of using night time to catch up on lost calories.

At night when she feeds do you put her back down awake so she resettles herself back to sleep?

{{{hugs}}}

[Little toes]

Almond milk is definitely lighter than regular milk or formula. Have you tried/talked to your doctor about coconut milk or hemp milk instead? Coconut in particular is such a great source of healthy fats. Maybe even mix 2 ounces of that into say 4 ounces almond milk? I'd try to get her down to two bottles day tops (16 ounces)...

Thanks! I never thought about coconut or hemp. The almond milk I'm giving her has only 40calories and it's honestly like water. I'll definately try that.

use a sleep phrase 'no milk, time for sleep, night night'.    Yes the first few nights will be hard but once you shift her hunger to daytime and more solids you'll all be sleeping better and she should be eating better.  I would say though that if you do decide to go for it promise yourself you won't give  in because if you start and tell her no milk, its night time, time for sleep and then give in a few hours later she'll be totaly confused.

She sleeps with me and drives me insane when she's hungry, so I've been giving in. She falls asleep instantly when she downs 6oz. But tbh last night I think she was just thirsty, ok after her 6oz 3am feed she woke and took less than an ounce. Didn't have anything at 730am either.

How am I going to get thru not giving her milk at all?? She absolutely freaks out when I give her sippy with water. I'm gonna try tonight but it's hard to be patient with her when I'm tired. Wish me luck!

[Little toes]

And I should mention dh works shifts and doesn't do BT. Him in the room makes it worse cuz she'll either scream or think it's play time. BT has always been mommy time.

[Little toes]

Ok, so last night wasn't as dreadful as I thought it'd be. I didn't completely cut out her milk, but significantly decreased it. She took 7oz at BT, screamed her head off 2hrs later. I gave her 3oz more then told myself it's water from then on, and I stuck with it! So she didn't have milk again til 7am, took 5oz. So she still woke up but was somewhat settled by water.

She ate much better today, tho not very much after her nap - she took 5oz. I'm wondering if that should be watered down a bit or just leave it for now til I get her thru the nights without that extra 11pm feed.

[Shiv52]

Well done you!!!!That was excellent!!!

Glad she ate better today too!

I would do a couple more nights like last night then tackle that milk around nap time xx

[Mom to M&M]

Great start! If you're not ready to totally cut the milk out yet I'd at least heavily dilute both the 11pm one AND the after nap one - like offering half water/half milk. And I'd think about making the switch to coconut milk - or at least adding a few ounces of coconut milk to her almond milk during the day - to make it more filling and add good fats to her diet.

[Lissybits]

Well done! Yes, that's a great start for sure!!! You'll have this sorted in no time!
 

[Little toes]

Ok, so last night was a bit better....maybe. She took 7oz, plus another 3 at BT. Then slept 4hrs. I gave her 2oz and nothing but a few sips of water til 630am. She woke at 3am, sipped water, maybe an hr or so after, sipped water. Screamed at 630 but didn't take full 7oz, instead she had 2oz, then 2oz, then 2oz spread apart til 8am. Not sure what that was about. I'm hoping things are getting better.

Dh's mom gave him the 'wonderful' idea to add flour to her milk. Don't even ask!! I need dd to get out of this habit quick before MIL keeps giving idiotic advice.

Thanks for your help!!

[Lissybits]

Flour?
Does she want you to make a white sauce?!

[Little toes]

Yup, she's brilliant. Wants to cook flour with water, use it as a thickener. Sooooooooooooooo not gonna happen!!!

I'm upset that she gives dh these stupid ideas. He actually thinks it can work to fill her up, so if he adds that cr@p to her bottle I'll pretend that I used it, or she didn't want it. It's not nutritious, pointless and will not solve the problem.

[Mom to M&M]

I'd definitely try the coconut milk route if you want to make it more filling. For a 7 ounce bottle I'd probably do 5 ounces almond milk and two ounces full fat coconut milk. But it's likely habitual as well as true hunger - you're doing great!

[Little toes]

    So I let MIL make her concoction, I had been arguing with dh and he told me he was going to give her rice thickener. I don't know what she put in it, but dd had stomach cramps all night! Literally! She didn't fall asleep til 3am after I gave her gripe water. I yelled at dh at 2am, and of course the first thing he said was it couldn't be what MIL made. I lost it! I'm so angry at myself and upset for giving in. I was seeing improvement with dd's eating, she was eating much better during the day. And because of dh and mil, my child had the worst night. I'm so upset.

[Shiv52]

{{{hugs}}}

It might be worth point out that research has shown that thickening milk does not actually help LOs sleep through the night. 

What sort of flour did she use? Or was it a rice thickener? 

I would be furious and use this as a lesson that you know best.  I would tell them both (DH and MIL) that the aim is to get more calories into her during the day and at this age you are aiming to reduce milk and get more solids into her and explain what you were planning to do with cutting the nights feeds and then reducing day time milk. 

I would also explain that to get her to stop NFs and to transfer the calories to the day requires TOTAL CONSISTENCY and by messing with your plan last night and putting pressure on you to add the flour has undid all the hard work you did the previous few nights.  It can take upto 1 week to see a transfer to taking more food in the day when cutting night feeds and now rather than being on day 3/4 you are back to square 1.  By thickening her bottle at night you are actually adding more calories to her night which is the exact opposite of what you are trying to achieve.  And now the poor wee mite is probably exhausted being up in pain during the night. 

SO sorry hun that they aren't supportive.  I'd be telling them to butt out as you are the one who deals with all the NWs and NFs so it is upto you to decide how to proceed and then they should support you. 

[Little toes]

Thanks Shiv. I don't know how MIL is so uneducated, not sure how dh survived his childhood. It bothers me that he'll take her advice without really thinking it thru. But he has zero experience with children. So now this proved the point YET AGAIN that I know what I'm doing so leave me the f* alone!!!! I confronted MIL this morning, told her that dd was up til 3am tossing and turning with stomach pain and didn't settle til I gave her something for her stomach. But in her usual b* self, she tried to turn it around and say I only used a tbsp so there's no way her 'remedy' was the problem. I lost it. I'm so angry that she's always trying to give her opinion on how to do things, feed, etc. It's none of her business. I told her I'm going to go back to what I was doing and I threw out what she made. And yes, she left it out all night. Also brilliant of her. GGRRRR.....

So now I'm back to what I was doing.

[Little toes]

And I should mention there's no point in trying to explain what was wrong about their plan. They just don't get it.

[Mom to M&M]

((((HUGS)))) it's so hard. I LOVE my MIL (actually closer with her than with my own mom in some ways) but she just doesn't get food intolerances at all. We are waiting for some results back ourselves, actually and I'm suspecting a wheat intolerance and/or lactose, among other issues. We already know he reacts really badly to pumpkin/squash (hives and up all night with tummy pains), coconut (hives), pineapple (discomfort) and other unknown items. Certain pizzas make him up all night with an upset tummy but others are OK. She doesn't get it. AT ALL. It's a bit easier for her with my niece since she has an anaphylactic reaction to nuts and she "gets" that more, even though she is totally confused by the whole "made in a factory with."

My DH is also a bit clueless this way. Until he has concrete evidence, he has a really hard time admitting a reaction. So even still he tries to argue the pizza reaction, even though it's happened a few times in a row from the same place. At first he'd say it must have been from teething or something else. He's starting to come around, though if we have to go gluten free or something like that (won't know for 2 more weeks probably) he will have a VERY hard time with it.

Anyway, stick to your guns and tell them you appreciate their thoughts but you are doing this a different way. IF you want to up the calories and good fats in her liquids I'd definitely go with adding some coconut milk to her almond milk but that's up to you. But at least that's a natural good source of real calories as opposed to an empty and often hard to digest filler.

More HUGS!

[Shiv52]

How was last night lovely?

[Little toes]

Anyway, stick to your guns and tell them you appreciate their thoughts but you are doing this a different way. IF you want to up the calories and good fats in her liquids I'd definitely go with adding some coconut milk to her almond milk but that's up to you.

I went back to what I was doing and we're back on track. I also picked up hemp and coconut milk, have been adding it to her almond milk. I see a lot of improvement with her daytime eating, she's got a much better appetite. She still has 7oz at BT, then another feed of 3oz a three or four hrs later. But then nothing until the morning except a few sips of water. I'm thinking of continuing this for another week or two, then maybe trying to cut that midnight bottle?? Tho I'm not sure how that's gonna go cuz she's actually hungry when she takes it. But maybe her eating will continue to improve so it won't be as hard to take out that lingering DF.

And about MIL's concoction - dh now gets it, he understand that it was definately that which gave her stomach cramps. So no more of their cr@p.

When will the water sipping dissapear? Last night she only sipped once, not twice as she's been doing. Will that go away on it's own or will I have to cut it out?

Thanks everyone for all the help!!! Nights are a lot better now.