BGB disaster, I am at my wit's end :-( ***update***

[Roseii]

It's been around 6 weeks since we put DD1 (2.5y) in her new room and new bed, big transition I know. First few nights were a dream, we didn't even have a safety gate on her door, she settled like a dream, sttn. Night 5 she figures she can get out and arrives downstairs twice before we get her off to sleep, DH and I realising we need to get the gate on ASAP That night around 4am DD2 was screaming so I took her downstairs to find DD1 ON THE SOFA :O Which scared the life out of me, I felt physically sick knowing she had come downstairs on her own and I hadn't heard her, she could have fallen down the stairs, hurt herself in the kitchen, anything I'm fact she just got straight onto the sofa and fell back to sleep.
Since then obviously we've had a gate on her door. Now she just will not stay in bed at bedtime. I take her up, brush teeth, read her stories in bed, turn her music on and leave the room, leavIng my light in my room on for her. She stays there for around 10 mins sometimes then gets up, turns her cd off then stands at her gate shouting I do attempt to return her to bed but more often than not she makes such a fuss (this kid is LOUD) that I bring her downstairs and try again after half an hour or so, oftn with a cup of milk to drink in bed
The last 2 nights this farce has gone on til gone 10pm, tonight I ended up lying in her bed til she dropped off This is a disaster, I want my evenings back
I feel like putting her back in the cot, I wish we hadn't moved her

Help?? Oh she is spirited and touchy xx

[mum101]

ouch! That's tough.

Finding her on the sofa at 4am would freak me out too!

I think you just have to find a way that settles her the quickest without fuss until this phase ends... a matter of seeing what works with each child IMO.

DD was just 3 and DS was 2.5 when we moved them to a bed. Both climbed out, but DD did make the biggest fuss. Quite frankly I got rather frustrated and put her straight back on her bed and said 'bed time' repeatedly until she got it!  Everything else was like adding fuel to the fire. If she got more attention in any way and she would get out of bed. 

From memory we also used gradual withdrawal from the room when she had trouble getting to sleep which then extended to disastrous bed time routine. So each night sitting a little further away while she settled to sleep, then I got to a stage where she would settle once I'd left the room.

DS does need me more now, to settle him, so he usually hangs on to my fingers (ensuring I can't get away LOL), and tells me to stay a long time (this is after all the wind down and books etc). I usually make an excuse to duck out (like have to feed our cat) and say I'll come back to check on him. Especially if me being in there is keeping him awake and entertained versus settling. Sometimes he falls asleep in that time, other times I'm back and forward.

[squeakersmum]

We have a gate at the top of the stairs because it won't fit on his door and he has his door closed. DS was very good about staying in his bed but gradually got wpse and worse. First of all we got some lights on a timer so that he knows when it's morning and he can come into our room - so if the light aren't on he's supposed to be in his bed.

When he started getting out at nightDH and I would take it in turns to come upstairs and put him back in bed. But we found that it quickly became a game an the excuses were getting fantastic ('why are you out of bed? Hot knees mummy'). We would also end up getting increasingly frustrated with him eventually telling him that 'enough was enough' and 'you must stay in bed' - he usually would after that, but I realised that he's only 2 so A lot of what we were saying was just words and tone of voice!

The past few nights we haven't been upstairs at all, deliberately. I or DH will stand at the bottom of the stairs where he can see us and tell him in a not at all frustrated even if we feel like it voice, that it's time for bed, and please go back on to your room and shut the door. Ending with 'Goodnight sweetheart, I love you'.

I think it's sinking in that we're not playing but nor are we cross with him. Night before last he was up 5 times, last night twice, and tonight only once, of course it might all backfire tomorrow!!

((hugs)) though - it must have been horrible to come downstairs and find DD asleep on the sofa!

[Roseii]

Girls firstly thanks so much for making me realise this is quote normal!! Think I was beginning to demonise her a bit

I do try the "just going to check on dd2" or yesterday it was even "I just need to give dad some medicine " She's def wise to that already though She's happy for me to leave then hops out of bed as soon as I'm downstairs.

Char I must confess I get quite frustrated too and v firmly tell her to get back into bed but that doesn't work either

Steph I did wonder about a timer clock...So if it's on the sun she's allowed to get out of bed..So does dS take himself back to bed now when you tell him repeatedly? X

[~Sarah~]

We had the same thing, but we actually put him in a pack n play for a few days as I could tell it was distressing him to be able to get up etc.  Then we started asking him where he wanted to sleep.  when he chose the bed he stayed in it.  It took about 5days or so and we have not had an issue since then.  

[squeakersmum]

We didn't even go as far as the gro clock - just bought some car lights on a string (he chose them himself) and one of those plug in timers. We were asking him when he got up if his car lights were on. He'd say no and we'd remind him that it meant hebstill had to be in bed. It took a few times but he quickly got it. Now it's funny in the morning as the yell of 'Car lights are ON!!!' and he comes hurtling out of his room.

Yes, he does take himself back - it does sometimes take a few repetitions though. I was worried to start with about him getting back into bed in the dark but then realised that if he could get out and find the door to come out then there was no reason he couldn't get back in again!!

Oh, and I knew I'd jinxed his sleep last night; he was up every flipping 2 hours because he was coughing!

[Roseii]

She's never slept in a travel cot so I know that would be even worse I have said shall we put her cot back in the room and she always says no...

The other thing-she is miseable when she wakes in the morning! Granted she's probably tired but in her cot she would sit and play with her toys for a bit before calling me, no she whines from the second she wakes up

Oh no Steph sorry you had a rough night That's good to know he can put himself back in bed, I must try that with DD rather than taking her back myself always x

[anna*]

A Groclock or lights on a timer is a great idea.
Do you feel like she is really distressed at bedtime? From your description it doesn't sound like it but of course I can't tell. If she's not really distressed, I would ABSOLUTELY not bring her downstairs. She can shout for ages, that's OK, just leave her to it if she's not truly upset. Don't return her to bed, she can do that for herself. Put on some white noise (LOUD) in DD2s room and let her shout. Periodically you can go upstairs and say calmly 'It's sleep time now. Go and get in your bed.' Mummy will come and give you a cuddle when you're asleep. And stick with it. It's like PUPD or sleep training, you ahve to just stick with it and be consistent. If you get her up or go and sleep with her, you're just going to create a different problem.

[squeakersmum]

Ben is/was always one for whining as soon as he woke up. It is a bit better now; normally we'll hear him playing with his dummy against the wall or talking to his 'Heffy' until the lights come on.

[<Catherine>]

Oh goodness Charli, many hugs. This is what I'm dreading when it's our turn.......wont be for a while if I have anything to do with it!

Hope things get better for you xxx

[okinawamama]

I have not gone through the BBB transition yet, but I have two friends that had two different techniques.

One friend put up the crib in the bedroom along with the BGB and allowed the child to choose. The child always chose BGB, but the stipulation was that she had to stay in her BGB, if not then she went into the crib (with a crib tent so that the she couldn't crawl out http://www.amazon.com/Tots-Mind-Cozy-Crib-White/dp/B00014PLAY/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1303061703&sr=8-1). Obviously this is a little more extreme, but my friend said that she too was at her wits end and was scared for the LO's safety. After a couple of times of being put back in the crib, the little girl got the idea and stayed in bed.

I also have a cousin who has quads  (can you imagine going through the transition with 4?!!!). Anywho, she used the angelcare monitors, which are available at Toys r us and places like that, that she had when her little ones were infants ( the ones where if the child stops breathing an alarm goes off, the alarm also goes off when the child moves off the mat because it doesn't detect any breathing). Each time the child (ren) would get off the bed, the alarm would sound and the alarm sounding was enough that her kids went right back to bed. Not only did it cause her kids to get right back into bed, she knew immediately when one of them was out of bed. She said it did take a couple of days, but the transition went smooth overall and she attributed it to the alarms.

[<Catherine>]

The child always chose BGB, but the stipulation was that she had to stay in her BGB, if not then she went into the crib

This is what DH wants to do when we make the transition.

I also have a cousin who has quads  (can you imagine going through the transition with 4?!!!)

Oh my! Can you imagine going through any of this 'bringing up children' lark with 4??!!! My hat goes off to her!

[Roseii]

Wow quads?!!! I can't even imagine!! 2 is hard enough

Thanks so much for your suggestions. I do have another cot that I could put in her room as a "threat" as such

So tonight she has got out of bed and I have put her back in twice, she then screamed the house down, DH got fed up and yelled at me to just bring her down I brought her down (I know I know ) and now DH has taken her back up, as far as I'm concerned she is his problem now if he's going to disagree with me  

[Roseii]

So Dh stayed with her til she went to sleep She then had NW at 1am, really really upset, crying a lot and I think I heard "No I don't want a teaset" so she was obviously having some sort of bad dream. I laid with her and she went back to sleep.

I'm soooo fed up of these evenings I wish we hadn't put her in a bed this sucks SO much.

[*Becky*]

Charli - can you not put her back in her cot? Maybe she is just not ready and in a few months it might all be different.

[Roseii]

I'm in 2 minds Becky She would HATE to go back in her cot, it would cause untold upset. Part of me thinks do I just need to ride this out?? Urgh I don't know. I feel like such a fool, finally getting her sleep sorted when she was 2yo, 6m of bliss, and now this

[squeakersmum]

Does she still nap Charli? If so does she nap in the BGB ok?

[Roseii]

No we dropped the "official" nap months ago, she does normally sleep in the car and buggy each day though. As bad as this sounds, the best evenings we have are when she is absolutely exhausted and had no sleep at all, usually she cannot stop herself falling asleep, much as she wants to fanny about!! It makes me think I need to stop her napping at all again and literally exhaust her into bed

[squeakersmum]

Maybe she is UT (or even OT, I can never tell with Ben ) an that's causing all the faffing about. Wouldn't it be good if it was that simple!!?!?

[Roseii]

I have wondered about chronic OT as she was v young to drop the nap, and although I think it plays a part I do think she JUST doesn't want to go to bed yk? It's boring up there in the dark, she wants to play downstairs!
I have let her have decent naps the past few days and if anything it's made it worse, even if I don't put her to bed til 8.30pm she still messes around

REALLY doesn't help that DH isn't on board  Last night when I was upstairs sitting in my room listening to her wail (angry wail, not upset wail yk) He said "you didn't want her to cry as a baby, now you're being a hypocrite cos you're leaving her to cry now" Which was SOOO helpful as you can imagine. I tried to explain "need you" cry versus "I just want to get my way" cry but he wasn't v receptive.

[squeakersmum]

Ugh - I sympathise. DH will go to get up to Ben and I'll say something about him being angry not upset and he'll just say - but he's crying. Grrr.

Have you asked him how HE plans to solve it if he isn't on the same page as you?

I don't know how BW it is but could you put the cot back in her room and make sure she knows - she's old enough to understand - that if she can't stay in her bed then she has to go back in the cot??

Sticker charts? They wouldn't work for Ben yet; he's just not interested, but they worked really well for one of his friends who is the same age.

[Roseii]

urgh men!

So are you thinking like a sticker/reward chart for staying in her bed? She loves stickers and is v interested in her cousin's PT reward chart...Do you have a reward once she has x number of stickers then?

Well last night I pretty much unceremoniously dumped DD on him and said "your turn." I was kinda hoping she would really mess him around but I think he laid with her, left her really sleepy (don't think she was actually asleep) promising he would come back, and she went off on her own

My SIL also said we should put the cot in her room so she can see it's not just a threat...My worry is she will just clamber all over it and end up hurting herself

[squeakersmum]

Yeah, Ben's friend got a heart sticker for staying in her bed when she was first put I. At night. Then when she was doing that her mum changed it so that she was getting a sticker if she stayed in her own bed all night. For her all he needed was the sticker - she didn't need the extra incentive of a reward after so many stickers but if that works for DD - it can't hurt!

[~Sarah~]

FWIW- When Ry was getting in and out it was really mentally distressing me and making me very angry/anxious.  One day I could not take the anger building in my chest.  So I went in sat on the edge of his bed and cradled him like I used to as a baby and just rocked and hummed to him.  I did it for quite a bit, maybe even 15min but he relaxed and I asked him are you ready to sleep now and he said "Ba-bye" which is code for him telling me goodnight (he can say goodnight but chooses be-bye...weird kid)
He laid down and fell asleep easy as pie!  Since then, if he is getting in/out we either sit next to his bed until I can feel him calm down or if he is really wound up I sit in his room and he runs in/out like 15times.  Kind of like getting the last burst of energy out.  But I don't get worked up I just sit in his room and when he runs in I say "time for night nights" and bc I am not chasing him the game ends pretty quickly.  I also am not getting to the point of yelling so he stays fairly calm.  

I do tell him at some point, "mommy is getting angry, it is time for bed"  He is just getting to the oint of understanding emotion and he is always concerned if "mommy happy?" so that works for us right now.

It was my Ped that suggested sitting with him until he got sleepier and I ignored it at first bc it seemed like I was going backward with sleep training, but honestly I don't have to do that much at all anymore.  I kind of felt like it was more like GW

HTH

[Roseii]

Thanks Steph I will try that

Sarah you sound so like me, I can literally feel the anxiety in my chest when I hear that familiar thudding upstairs And I'm embarassed to say I do end up yelling at her, not that it makes any difference

That's good to know that some sort of GW did work for you, I guess that's what DH was doing last night. Think I'm being a bit selfish really, I just want to go back to plonking her in bed and not worrying about her til morning 

And the thing about going backwards with sleep training-that's exactly what I'm worried about. She has now started asking to come into my bed, something we nipped in the bud over 18m ago

[*Becky*]

I feel like such a fool, finally getting her sleep sorted when she was 2yo, 6m of bliss, and now this

oh hun, don't feel like this. It is a natural transition and tbh we all take a gamble as to the best time to do it. I think an incentive of some sort is a good idea for sure and if she will go for stickers then you could give it a try. I think I would also 'try' a couple of no nap days to see if it helps. Obviously we don't want her to get very OT but if she was managing before well then it may just give her that extra bit of tiredness to help her go off to sleep.
Hugs xx

[Roseii]

Thanks Becky
I think I will try the no nap route and hope it doesn't backfire I know she can cope on no nap, we've done it for months. I'm thinking maybe no nap combined with sort of GW like Sarah describes might be a good option...And sticker incentives I just want my evenings back

[<Catherine>]

More hugs Charli. I just *know* we are going to have this, and I also *know* my DH will be as helpful as yours

Having not been there yet, I'm really not in a position to offer advice, but it strikes me that putting her back in her cot now would be going backwards and that you may just be faced with this all over again when you make the transition again in 6 months, or whatever. I think you've got to ride this out, but I'm sure that is much easier said than done I think the stickers would be worth a go.

Good luck! You have all my sympathy, I can't imagine how awful it must be after just thinking you've cracked the whole sleep thing. We're having complete nap refusal these days (doing what you are in that any naps are now taken in the car ) and that's bad enough as it only seems like yesterday that we got the naps sussed.

Hugs xxx

[~Sarah~]

Do you think she could be OT??
I have just gone through 45min of getting Ry to sleep in his BBB for a nap and it is clear that he is OT. He is just getting over an illness for a few days so I was putting him in bed very early and have had absolutely no issues.  Then today (selfishly..I wanted both in bed at the same time) I pushed him and he is now so clearly OT it is not funny!!!

I am about ready to scream right now, so I am taking a minute and thought I would share with you...just a thought

[anna*]

OT would be my worry too. We had the WORST of our transition period with Stan when he was OT. He was compulsively leaving the room, throwing everything from his room out to the landing - it was like he just couldn't stop himself. He finally crashed out on the landing at about 10.30pm!!

[squeakersmum]

There's something in the air - Ben's REALLY trying my patience tonight. Been 'in' bed for an hour and a half...and counting. He's going to bed VERY early tomorrow night so that if he faffs around for two hours he might actually still get a decent nights sleep.

Charli - tonight, in particular, I feel your pain!

[Roseii]

it strikes me that putting her back in her cot now would be going backwards and that you may just be faced with this all over again when you make the transition again in 6 months, or whatever. I think you've got to ride this out, but I'm sure that is much easier said than done

Thanks Cath and yes I think you're right, we may have just as much trouble in another 6 months so might as well try and sort it now

I have just gone through 45min of getting Ry to sleep in his BBB for a nap and it is clear that he is OT. He is just getting over an illness for a few days so I was putting him in bed very early and have had absolutely no issues.  Then today (selfishly..I wanted both in bed at the same time) I pushed him and he is now so clearly OT it is not funny!!!

(((hugs))) Sarah, did you get him down? it's not selfish to want them to sleep at the same time!!

Yes I am concerned she may be OT...chronically so perhaps. But then the days she naps it's EVEN harder to get her in bed

She was at nursery yesterday, I had to wake her at 7.15am which is unusual but she'd had a NW so I think she was shattered. She napped 1.05-1.45 at nursery, I had her in bed at 8.15pm, she messed around til 8.30pm, with me sitting silently at her gate, ignoring her. At half 8 she came over and was wailing at the gate. I was SO fed up last night, had loads to do as they are both at my mum's today and I needed to get all meals, changing bag etc ready, so I got in bed with her She was asleep by 9pm, which is still way too late but earlier than if I'd fought with her. She had a NW at 2am, v upset, crying out etc, but settled quite quickly when I went in there, then up for the day at 7.10am...

I am dreading tonight, DH will be at footie so I'll be on my own dealing with them both.

Steph, hope you had a decent night in the end!!

x

[anna*]

Can you not just leave her at the gate for a while?

[Roseii]

I suppose I could...Although she'd just start emptying all the drawers etc And this is where the problem of DH arises, he would not be up for just leaving her to it, hence why he ends up getting into bed with her to get her to sleep

[anna*]

Ah right. The DH conundrum... sorry, can't help with that one

[~Sarah~]

Sarah, did you get him down?

NO!!!  In fact he didn't nap at all, and DD only took a 30min nap all DAY!!!  At one point I tried getting DD to sleep, but it was not working so I thought I would try to APOP a nap for both of them by going for a car ride...which my hope were low, but I needed to do something before I threw them both out the window.

Neither slept but at least they just calmly looked out the window.

I actually started dinner at 430 and Ry was asking for the news which means he knew BT was coming.  I started his bath at 545 and had him asleep without a peep by 630.  At about 545am he was crying out, I took in a diaper and a cup of milk, and he went back to sleep until 745.

I figure he has been on a low level of OT since the switch to BBB a month ago.  He has been fighting the BT and it has been getting later and later...but a few times I could see I missed the sleep window.  I thought I needed to shorten his naps (he still prefers 3hrs day sleep) and when I cut them things got progressively worse.

The only reason I think he caught up is this past weekend he had a stomach bug and was only AWAKE 5hrs all day Sunday!!  That is how I knew yesterday he clearly had gotten OT.  There was no second guessing UT vs OT.

So my only thought is, could you try for super super early BT?  At least that would give you a few hrs to get it squared away?

I hope my pain can somehow help you

[Roseii]

Ah right. The DH conundrum... sorry, can't help with that one

At least he's out tonight so I can do things my way 

Oh Sarah sorry you had no joy!! I have been known to take my 2 out in the car purely for a bit of peace too before If only there was a drive-thru tea-bar I could go to...

Maybe I am completely missing her sleep window?? Maybe I should try a much earlier bedtime...Even if she messes around for a while it would be more bearable knowing it's not gonna be 10pm by the time I get downstairs...

She is with my mum today so who knows what she'll have done sleeo wise...

Wish me luck 

[~Sarah~]

Even if she messes around for a while it would be more bearable knowing it's not gonna be 10pm by the time I get downstairs...

This is what I am thinking...it is worth a shot!

If only there was a drive-thru tea-bar I could go to

I was already ready to float away on all the coffee I drank, or I would have stopped for sure!

[squeakersmum]

Even if she messes around for a while it would be more bearable knowing it's not gonna be 10pm by the time I get downstairs...

 This is what I'm doing tonight! If he's OT he *should* (please!) go to sleep sooner tonight than last night and if he's UT I figure it'll still take a couple of hours he'll just be done earlier!!

[Roseii]

Just wanted to update...

So I don't really know why but for the past few nights DD1 has stayed in bed 

The other night DH and I agreed we needed to be on the same page about this, thank god, and that we would be firm, not put her back in bed but just keep telling her to get back in bed, and if she fell asleep on the floor then so be it...

Well didn't she bloomin' well stay in bed that very night we had a plan!! And for about 5 nights now. She hasn't even fallen straight to sleep, she has laid there chatting, whereas before she would be hopping out. A visit from the Easter bunny definitely helped re-enforce the staying in bed thing, but she was actually doing it before that, who knows why!

However I am worried about tonight as she is at nursery on a Tuesday and just plain awful when I pick her up  I don't know if it's OT/OS or what (she usually has 1/2 hour nap which is no less than she would at home) but she is just a demon after nursery...I think I might try putting her in bed early rather than later...

xxx

[*Becky*]

sounds like a good plan Charli. Really pleased things have improved. Fingers crossed they stay that way xx

[<Catherine>]

So pleased things have improved Charli, I have my fingers firmly crossed for tonight for you - good luck!