13 Mth old - never napped well where to start

[alphadad]

Hope to get some help

Our little boy has never napped well, for most of his first year it was 25 mins at a time. If we do manage to get 1 1/2 hrs total in the day (especially the afternoon nap is good) then he sleeps well at night.

So we now are determined to get him to self settle during the day for naps - I have been putting him to nap, rocking bouncing, shhing patting . Recently this has changed to mainly patting, this only works if he is perfectly ready, so chances of success are around 60% in the am and 30% in the pm naps.

If we were to leave him in his room, he either will stand up and chat, moan, cry a little for an hour possibly longer. We can spend up to 8hrs trying to getting him to sleep on his own via sitting in his room, patting, having him cry a little - not all at once, but methods we have been trying and we obv don't want to give of mixed messages but need a path to take to best get results.

[*Becky*]

Hi there,
Please could you post your routine and we can see if something needs tweaking.
At this age we recommend WIWO or GW to promote independent sleep. Are you aware of these methods?

[alphadad]

our ideal routine

7.30am wake and BF
8.00am breakfast
10am snack
10.15 wind down and put down for 10.30am
11.30am awake
12.00pm lunch
3.00pm wind down and put to sleep for 3.15 - 3.30pm
4.00 - 4.30pm awake and snack
6.15pm dinner
7.00pm bath, books,BF
7.30pm bed

This is the ideal we are working towards

The morning nap if he goes down later he is OT (and would always nap for 27mins.... we tried extending his A time to 4hrs this has had a negative effect on his nap length) , i think this may stretch out as the night sleep becomes more consistent

The problems with the above are

We can spend 30mins + trying to get him to nap in the am, by continual patting of his back,butt. If we WI WO he screams the second we open the door. The wind down seems to work as when he's put in the crib he rolls on his front, butt in the air, waiting to be patted: the second we stop patting he rolls back and looks for us or if we are not there cries.

the 2nd nap we rarely get the butt in the air and he just stands up plays in his crib, talks or cries for over an hour: we will then go and pat him to sleep which takes another half hour so he goes down late - sometimes 4pm or even 4.30, for half an hour -  which then means he isn't tired for the night time. Bed then gets pushed out to 8pm and the following day is messed up and so it goes.

The GW method is how we got this far in the night time and provided his pm nap is good (at least 40mins) and there is a 3hr gap from nap to sleep he goes down well, self-soothing 75% of the time. Naps have always been a disaster... from the age of 2 weeks onwards he has rarely napped for longer than 27 minutes on the dot, and nothing we could do could extend it! The funny thing is he is a very happy baby despite the obvious sleep deprivation, but we need to get these naps nailed for everyone's benefit

[*Becky*]

thanks for the routine - it would also be useful to see the actual routine that happens most days as well as any NWings that occur as then I can see what is actually happening.

Does he usually nap for an hour in the am once you get him down?
It sounds like he is going through the 2:1 transition which can be a difficult process especially for some lo's. It also sounds like he has got used to you being there to get him to sleep and THIS may be the key as to why he does not nap longer i.e. when he comes into a light sleep after 30 mins or 27 mins he expects you to be there to rub his back.

Do you want to tackle the independent sleep first? He will cry with WIWO tbh and yes even scream as he is used to being patted but if you are consistent with your approach it should work. There are some lo's it does not suit having said that and it is your choice. If GW is your preferred method that is fine too but it sounds like it is time to lessen the contact with him i.e. the back rubbing and do more with just your voice and/or physical presence.

As far as the routine goes I would decide whether you are aiming to do a short am/long pm nap or the other way around. As an example if you decide to do short am the day might look like this...
A - 7.30am
Nap - 10.30-11am
Nap - 2-3.30pm
Bedtime - 7.30pm

What do you think?

[babybarr]

Def would be useful to see a couple of days worth of *actual* routine.  May help find some patterns!

[alphadad]

last few weeks all over the place, for various reasons.

But today is sort of typical - though last night wasn't

starting from yesterday

6.00am wake (after 10hrs sleep - with one NW)

9.00 - down to sleep and 9.25am asleep
1hrs nap.

10.30 snack
2.15pm down to sleep after books.
standing in crib for 40mins with no sounds (except when we first WO), odd chat and a little moan but no crying.
I then go in a try to put him down, butt in the air and I patt him for around 1 mins, he then starts to push up (ready to sit) so I walk out of the room. Give him 10 mins + some crying and fussing I walk in - same thing patt bum seems to be ready to sleep - but gets up . Walk out - this process goes on until 4.30pm. Finally I walk in put him down (from standing) and he goes to sleep straight away.

5.10pm he wakes up tired we feed him and  decide to try for a 6.30pm sleep. He stays up until 8.30pm in various stages of crying fussing etc we walk in a few times we he gets upset, put him down (from standing) and he rolls over , I pat his butt and he seems to sleep, the second I lift my hand he rolls over and gets up. At 8.30pm he goes to sleep.

Today.
NW at 3am and 5am
Wakes up at 7.30am -
Feed at 8.15am
10.00 reading books, down to sleep for 10.15am.
10.20am sleep, self soothed
wakes up at 11am, he pooped himself so this might have been why he woke.
lunch at 12pm
2.45pm - bedtime routing, books etc.
and 3.30pm - here I am writing this , he is still awake - standing in the crib and nothing, no fussing, crying.


I am aware of the 2-1 trans is coming but this has been the case since he was 2 months old, only recently did we EVER get more than 25mins nap and that was because he was going down earlier for the first nap, I was very strictly going for 3.45hr A time in the AM and we just accepted 25mins was all we were getting. Soon as we switched to 3hrs A time in the am we got 5 solid days of 1 to 1 1/2 hrs am nap and 1hr pm nap followed by at least 10hrs of night sleep (one night got 12) then the 6th day, it fell apart and he refused to nap, we spent around an hour patting him for each nap and therefore the schedule became impossible.



 

[alphadad]

I should add - the 6th day when all was going well and naps fell apart, we ended up having to do one nap as he on;y fell asleep at 12.30pm for 45 mins. So we put him down around 6.30pm and he woke up 3-4 times in the night.

EDIT to add
He woke up now after 25 mins sleep - so this seems to be our problem. Do we at 4.20pm ish decide to continue in pursuit of the decent nap and then what time do we put him down at night? or

Get him up regardless of the nap length (even if he doesn't nap at all) knowing he will have multiple NW's due to be OT and then he will wake up OT? How do we end the cycle?

[*Becky*]

ok well it seems to me that the two big issues are that lo is very OT and that he has got used to your presence to help him sleep.
Unless he is distressed I would leave him at naptime.

standing in crib for 40mins with no sounds (except when we first WO), odd chat and a little moan but no crying.
I then go in a try to put him down, butt in the air and I patt him for around 1 mins,

This is not necessary - he needs some time to self-soothe.

I would go for much earlier bedtimes, more like 5.30/6pm to try and help him catch up on this OT and then I do think you need to consider that first nap. If my DS slept for an hour in the am at this age he also would not want to go down in the afternoon and a short nap is likely continuing the OT.

I do think the bum patting needs to stop too - encouraging him to self soothe (which he can do it seems) is important to his settling after the 25 minutes.

[alphadad]

so when do you go in doing WIWO? only when he gets upset, and if so do I just say dad is hear or rub him also? put him down from standing?

Could you also give me an idea of the routine I should be doing if he is gong to sleep at 6.30?  And should I be following it strictly - ie wake him from naps ?  He has never napped better in the pm than the am.
thanks

He was awake every 2hrs last night - worst in around 8 months. He has a cough, so hopefully be over it soon.

[*Becky*]

With WIWO you only go in if the cry is a distressed one so not a mantra cry, not shouting, not calling but an upset cry. With my lo I would go in, lie him down and say 'sleepytime' then leave immediately. I would then listen very carefully to see if he was self settling in any way i.e. if the cry became a mantra cry or there were pauses in the crying which indicated that he was calming.

You can choose to do a longer am nap if that is when he naps best but my concern with that is that he may completely refuse the pm nap and that will not help with the OT situation. My lo always napped better in the am too but in the en it was so hard to get him down for a pm nap that I cut the am nap to 30 mins and then eventually 20 mins and it def improved the second nap.

For now if he has a cough you will need to just wait - WIWO should not be done if lo's are sick or teething. Once he is better then we can work out a routine.

Is he teething at all?

[alphadad]

what I really need to know - am getting desperate now.

He wakes at say 7am
10am we decide to start the morning routine and put down at 10.15am.
He stands or plays in crib for one hour, I then do what?

Assuming I walk in around 11.30am and put him down, rub his back - say good night etc he protests, sits up, not interested in sleep. Eventually I get him down at 12.20pm and he sleeps for 25 mins.

As he is OT I decide to put him down at 3pm (2hrs A time) again same as above he stands up, chats etc .4.30pm comes and I decide to go in and try and get him to sleep - again 25 mins. He is obviously OT but the day has gone and now looking forward to multiple NW's due to being OT.

He wakes up a few times in the night, 7am comes and he is more OT today than yesterday.


Please help! The above happens pretty regular and we don't know how to fix . If we leave him to nap by himself he can go all day (8-9hrs) without a nap, he does not nap in the car seat or in stroller. He doesn't even get grumpy on 25 mins nap total in one day

[*Becky*]

Is he teething at all? It was right about this age my lo would not settle for naps and got very OT - mainly it was due to teeth. Have you tried meds for the NWings?

[alphadad]

he seems to always be teething, he has 8 teeth now.

What I am trying to resolve (his naps) has been going on since around 2months - he has NEVER until around one month ago (when we got lucky with 5-6 days) napped more than 25mins. When we were told to follow his cues and let him go to sleep - when he was 3-6 months all that happened was he stayed up all day. 

Again today - he has been awake now for 6hrs because I am trying to let him self sooth - and again he just sat in the crib for over an hour, I then put him in the stroller and walked for another hour - nothing.

[babybarr]

Have you ever tried fixed nap times?  Have you got any help at all with the naps?

[alphadad]

Yes we tried for a good couple of months with a strict nap times, but then we were bouncing, rocking etc so we could always get him to nap by doing this - we decided a couple months ago to try and stop this as it seemed the quality of his naps wasn't good - ie we were putting him to sleep rather than him being ready and a result was the 25 mins nap.


We had someone come around the other day who is supposed to be good with sleep training (but not CIO) and she pretty much gave our money back.

And here I am again - 8 hrs of A time and no nap in sight.