Help needed with A times and naps UPDATED We're in a mess :(

[cuckoochick]

Hi!

I have a post over on PU/PD as we have a few props that we need to get rid of. DD has never been a great napper and we were finally getting somewhere with independent sleep at bedtime (less so with naps), longer naps and DD was STTN consistently for around 3 weeks until...we started stretching A times, moved her into her own room, teething and a stinker of a cold. In desperation from 2hr long NWs I brought her into bed with us and cuddled her to sleep and so the prop began. At the moment DH or I are sleeping in DD's room from when she wakes for the first time at night because, while she will go down in there at bedtime (very drowsy through rocking   but awake and hand on chest) we can't get her back in there after that. Hence the need to do PU/PD

I really wanted to try PU/PD this weekend coming but after posting on PU/PD I have been advised to come over here to get some help tweaking my EASY as, quite frankly, it is a mess. Naps are getting shorter and we've been having quite a few NWs.

I must add, DD has never been a long napper until we got to 4 mos and moved to 3.5 hour EASY with a 2hr A time. She then began to do 2 x 1.5hr naps and 1x 45 minute naps. First nap was pretty much always 1hr30, 2nd nap either 1hr 30 (or 45) and 3rd nap 45mins (or 1hr 30 if nap 2 was short).

However, now I am having trouble with her 2nd A time.

I think 2hr 15 for her first A is about right because in the last few days we have been 1hr20-1hr30 min naps for the first nap, but it is the 2nd A time I can't get right and then that is blowing us out for the rest of the day. DD is a very alert and lively baby and will happily stay awake for hours chatting and playing if I would let her. She never really cries when she is tired and cn have some monster A times as she will not sleep when we are out and about (rarely as I am obsessing about her naps!). Last night, DH tackled all the night wakings and so I didn't BF her as we really knew she didn't need the feed. This actually resulted in her waking less even though yesterday was a pretty shoddy day.

Ok, here is a sample EASY although each day is pretty different as her wake-up time is now all over the place (was always 7am-7:15, now it is more like 6am as she will not seem to do more thhan an 11 hour night.

6:35 Wake up
E 6:50
A 2hrs 15 (I seem to have a window here of 2hr-2hr15 to get up to a 1.5hr nap, rarely, very rarely a 2hr nap)
s 8:50-10:10 (1hr 20)
E10:50
A (Began wind-down at 12:10 2hrs was quite resistant to napping) A time 2hr 20 mins
S 12:30-1:08 (DD woke chatting and practising her new thing which is blowing raspberries- not funny when trying to resettle) She kept falling back to sleep for 10-15 mins snatches and then would ping open and I'd try all over again! I ended up giving up at 2pm
A
E 2:45
a So after short nap I tried to resettle from 3pm-3:45 without luck. DD was really fighting me. Took her out for 15 mins and tried again 4:15 until she finally gave in and slept at so very long!
S 4:45-5:25 (45 minutes)
A 6pm bath
E6:30
S7:25 (2hrs A)

NW11:50pm (fed but now not going to)
NW3:40am (fed but now not going to)
NW 4:50
NW5:30
Wake up for the day 6:15

sSince then, I have tried a 2hr 30 min A time for 2nd A and got a 30min OT nap. I am so confused. Is it possible her 2nd A could be shorter than first? Is it OT or UT? I know the prop issues are definitely part of it as last night all it took was some patting to get her to go back to sleep so we have to work on independent sleep but for that to be a success I have to get her A times right.

One thing I have noticed is that if I try to reduce A time after a short nap, I have very little success getting her to sleep any less than 2hours after she woke, even if it was a 30 min OT nap. Any ideas why? So if I get a 45 min nap for 2nd nap, now I can't seem to get her back on track to have longer than 45 minutes at the next one.

Sorry for such a long, garbled post. I really hope it makes sense. I want to get this right as we need to sleep train! Thank you so much

[Shiv52]

Am just about to dump my two stinkers in the bath but I will be back xx

[cuckoochick]

Thanks! Wanted to add BT is usually between 6:30 and 7pm. I can never get her down earlier than that. It took  us until she was 4mos to get a consistent BT before 8.

[cuckoochick]

Ok, well just got a 2nd nap of 1hr 30!!!! Yippee on a 2hr 20 A time!

So...so far today we've had:
Wake up: 6:05 am
E 6:15
A (winddown at 8:05- fell asleep really quickly so thought UT nap for sure) A time = 2hr 5 mins
S 8:10- 9:25 (1hr 15 mins)
A
E 10:05
A Began winddown at 11:30 A= 2hr 20
S 11:40- 1:10 (1hr 30 mins)

So how do I shoot the rest of the day? If next A= 2hr 20 that would be S at 3:30. How long am I aiming for here? 45 mins. I doubt she'll do longer but then that would mean if she does 45 mins, awake at 4:15 and then she'd be awake for at least 2 hours and I know it will be so difficult to get her to sleep at BT before 6:30 even though I know that makes our day longer than 12 hours. Hmm, why does sleep have to be so complicated!

[Shiv52]

Yay! 

Great news! 

I would do 2 hour 20 and then 45 minute CN and then 2 hours to bedtime if thats what she needs to settle well.  At this age it is hard to stick to 12 hour day and night as they still need the 3 naps but do need the longer A times.  Our day was always 13hour/11 hour night at this stage and then changed back when CN was dropped. 

I'll be back with more ideas  but wanted to quickly say how I'd manage rest of day x

[cuckoochick]

Thanks Shiv,

Will play it that way and see what happens. I think we will end up with a slightly later BT than 6:10 as she always does a long A to BT even if I want it to be short!!   Will see how it goes!

[Shiv52]

How did the day end up?

What A time is she managing?  Typically at 5.5 months it would be 2 hr 15-2hr 30.  I think if you could get her to consistently do 2hr 15 for 3 days you'd hopefully see a change in your naps.  It does take a couple of days of consistency to take effect though. 

[cuckoochick]

Hmmm! Well I had to go pick DH up and then got stuck in some bank holiday traffic so A time ended up being 3hrs ( )which she doesn't bat an eyelid at really. She wouldn't sleep in car but did 45 minutes when we got back and then 2hr A to bedtime at 7. So not perfect but she went down well. We'll see how tonight goes.

Our naps have never been perfect and she was a good night sleeper but think with the change in her room is a big factor as there are different noises there. Must go to bed as have been up since 2:30am and not shut my eyes once. DH is doing NW again so hope she's good for him.

Thanks again. Going to stick with 2hr 15 for 1st and then 2hr 20 for rest and shorter before bed.

[Shiv52]

She sounds like a lovely baby!  Are you feeding through the night at all? 

[cuckoochick]

Ok so last night was lots better!!! Bed at 7pm, woke at 3:50am for a feed and then back to sleep until 6:35!

So EASY was:
A 6:05
E 6:15
A (2hr 5 mins)
S 8:10-9:25 (1hr 15 mins)
A
E 10:05
A 2hr 20
S 11:40- 1:10 (1hr 30)
A
E 2:10
A 3hrs- eek!
S 4:10-5:00 (45 mins)
A
E 5:30 (1 side as hungry
A Bath and massage
E 6:20
S 7pm

NF 3:50
Awake 6:35

So not ideal with that long A before the catnap but it didn't blow us out of the water.

As for the feedings, the night before when DH resettled she didn't have a feed all night but last night when she woke at 3:50am I knew she'd want a feed as it had been a big long sleep. I think at 5.5 mos it would be unrealistic for me to say I'm never going to feed her in the night as the 6mo GS is creeping up on us but of course I will be so happy if she starts to STTN again! It was just those ridiculous wakings before midnight (that were OT for sure) but if I went in, she would want a feed and then it would ruin the night. I know she doesn't really need that feed that she had last night as this morning she wasn't too bothered for her morning feed and only fed off one side.
What do I do in that instance? In the past I have rolled with it and maybe offered again a little before her first nap but I don't want it to throw out our whole day, IYKWIM? Any tips thanks!

Thanks again!

[Shiv52]

YAY for a great night!

I think at 5.5 mos it would be unrealistic for me to say I'm never going to feed her in the night as the 6mo GS is creeping up on us but of course I will be so happy if she starts to STTN again!

Thats what I was going to say.  I wasn't sure if you'd decided not to feed at night from now on and was just going to say BF babies do need night feeds for longer than FF babies are it is more easily digested.  But you knew that!

Are you upping your first A time to 2.15 today?

It sounds like your LO is fairly flexible and managed that longer A time well which is great because there will be days you want  to go out and naps may be later and its good to know she will handle it well. 

Hope today goes well.  I'd do similar to yesterday but shorter second A time than 3 hours ! 

What do I do in that instance? In the past I have rolled with it and maybe offered again a little before her first nap but I don't want it to throw out our whole day, IYKWIM? Any tips thanks!

Thats what I would do.  Just top her up a half hour before nap so she's not going to wake hungry.  It won't through out the day too much.

So how is she settling for naps? 

[cuckoochick]

Hello again!

First A was 2hr 10 minutes and we got a 1hr 25 min nap so yep will try 2hr 15 tomorrow. 2nd nap today will be off as I have to go to my counsellor so her 2nd A is going to be long but I will just have to roll with it and try not to panic!!

Settling for naps....hmm...I am still lying with her at the moment in her room. I am going to give it a few more days of getting OT at bay and then definitely put her in crib for naps. I have decided I want give something gentler than PU/PD a try at first. At bedtime, I have been rocking/patting her and putting her down with heavy lids, eyes opening and closing and settling with a hand on her chest and stroking her hair. Going to move to this for naps and then try to do a GW I guess. I am just worried that my anxiety is going to get in the way of this too much and that it will take PU/PD to get her to sleep independently as I am the biggest problem here.

I have to get her self-settling though before I go back to work, so if what I have got planned doesn't work in the next fortnight or so, then I will go to PU/PD. What do you think?

Thank you so much. You are such a huge support to me right now! x

[Shiv52]

Sounds like a plan.  I think she'll be fine with the longer A time so try not to worry.  The CN will catch her up before bed so your night shouldn't be affected.

I think GW is the way to go.  Thats what I did with DD1.  I started by getting her really drowsy and putting her down and ssh-patting to sleep then faded back until I was just putting her down and only ssh patting if she got unsettled and on it went. 

I honestly don't think you'll need to go to PU/PD.  I think your nights and nap issues are to do with not enough A time and think once you get those sorted out the NWs will go away on their own.  And then all you need to do is GW for getting her to sleep more independently. 

Keep in mind that in a few weeks you may hit a growth spurt and then she may be ready for even more A time as at 6-7 months LOs start to drop their CN.  So if you start to see her fighting naps/bedtime, cutting naps short or EW you may need to start thinking about rejigging things.   Once the CN gets dropped things then stay the same for ages so you have that to look forward to!!

Hope counselling goes well today xx

[cuckoochick]

Hi there!!

Wondering if you wouldn't mind taking a look at yesterday and telling me what you think:

Awake 6:35
 A = 2hr 10
S= 8:45- 10:10 (1hr 25 mins) I am going to stretch her to 2hr 15 this morning

A= 3hrs (this was way too long as I had to go to the counsellor so I knew I'd get an OT 30 but I'd have to extend)
S 1-2:45. (1hr 45 mins. Woke up after 30 but I got her straight back down)

A 2hr 30 (This is where I knew my life was going to start getting tricky as she was fighting and fighting going down for a catnap but without it, I knew our night would be terrible, or I'd have to put her to bed at 5:30 and then risk being up at 4:30 and thought no way!)
S 5:15- 5:55 (I woke her up after 40 minutes)
A= 2hrs
S 7:55 Down for the night.
NF 2:30am

Up 6:55am

Ok so, I know the long 2nd A was not ideal as I had to visit counsellor but was pleased that I could extend. So obviously this pushed our day back by 45 minutes (30 mins late going down and then 15 minutes extra sleep than she normally gets at 1hr 30 nap.

What was going on with the catnap? She fought and fought going down for it so that was a 2hr 30 A after the 1hr 45 nap. Sigh! It dawned on me that our days are going to become quite tricky in the next few months fitting the catnap in. Is it ok to have a 13hr day as when I add all the A times and naps up it is more than 12 hours? It reminded me of being back on 3hr EASY when everyday was a struggle to get her to catnap but without it, well.... Urgh!

Ok so any thoughts? I am not going anywhere today so hopefully (said with baited breath) I can aim for two good naps and the catnap!

Many thanks!

[Shiv52]

Is it ok to have a 13hr day as when I add all the A times and naps up it is more than 12 hours?

Yes you'll find that this is exactly what will happen and that is totally fine.  LOs need to be doing 2.45-3 hours of A times before they can drop the CN but the transition to get there is tricky as as you've found there isn't enough time in a 12 hour day!  They are needing the longer A times to be tired enough to sleep but still need the CN to get to a normal bedtime. 

I think the fact that you were able to resettle that nap yesterday (well done!!) and the fact she managed a longer A time the day before too is an indication that she may be ready for more A time than we've first been thinking.  But lets see how today goes and tomorrow too and if she's still fighting the CN i think you may need to add another 10 minutes to the A time to aim to get to 2.25-2.30 but slowly does it.  I'm not surprised she's starting to fight the CN especially after a 1.45 nap!  I had a nightmare dropping the CN with DD1 and am determined to do it much quicker this time round!

Does that make sense?