16 Month Night Wakings - Too much daytime sleep?

[MummyEvie]

Hello All

It's been ages since I posted here, must be a sign that everything has been going okay I guess?

Anyway I need some opinions on my son's recent night wakings.  First here's the vital info as always requested:-
He is 16 months old.
Current Routine:-
Wakes anywhere between 6 and 7.
Breakfast 7.30/8.00
Activity
Lunch 11.45
Nap - 12.15 to 2.15 (I have to wake him up - normally let him have 2 hours, more if teething etc)
Activity
Tea - 5
Bath - 6.30
Bottle - 7.00
Bed -7.15/7.30

(Now until a month or 2 ago he was still taking 2 short naps most days, especially at nursery where he is very active.  So in place of his long lunch nap he'd have maybe 2 naps of 45 minutes, but often shorter.  But it meant I had to keep pushing out his bedtime as he wasn't tired after having a pm nap.)

His night waking started a few weeks ago, around the 2am mark.  I have a video monitor still in his room so I can see him when he wakes.  He would wake and lie there sometimes for up to 1 hour eventually crying until I went in to settle him, but then often still lying there awake after I'd put him back down.
At that time I read that night wakings are often as a result of OT so I made sure that he had a long lunchtime nap and that he was in bed in good time if any signs of tiredness showed up.
But I still got night wakings.
Then I saw that he got all 4 canine incisor teeth breaking through and so I put it down to that.

Since then we have been away at friends and here and there with the bank holidays and he has gone back to taking 2 short naps (on journeys to and from etc) and we had no night wakings.
Yesterday as we were at home I went back to 1 long lunch nap (12:20 - 14:20)
He had an active day and was asleep in seconds of going down at 7.15 but then he woke at 01.00 and didn't settle back to sleep until 02.30.  He didn't wake up cying he just lay there then eventually stood up at the side of his cot.  We gave him some calpol in case it was his teeth and tried to put him back down again.  This resulted in him being v upset and my husband sitting with him until he was nearly asleep.
He woke up at 06.00 this morning and was happy chatting in his cot until I went and got him up.  He seemed in a good mood although did yawn a couple of times on the way to nursery!
He's got a lovie for sleep time which he absolutely loves and will suck and cuddle to settle himself.

So now I'm stuck wondering what it is about the 1 nap that's upsetting his nightime.  Is it overtired or undertired??
If it's undertired I could reduce his lunch time nap but then I'm worried he'll be super tired at bedtime?
If it's overtired I can let him sleep more in the day and or bring his bedtime forward a bit??

If anyone can share the benefit of their knowledge or experience I would be very very grateful!

Thank you

Evie

[sianie]

Hi there!

It could be that he's still taking time to adjust to 1 nap. My DS the same age & we transitioned to 1 nap around a month ago & it's taken a few weeks for him to settle into the new routine, which isn't too dis-similar to your, my DS generally sleeps 12-2pm & a 2 hr nap at this age is pretty spot on.

I wonder whether the fact that he's had some 2 day naps again have thrown his body clock a bit? I would try a few days of 1 nap (I'd go for 12pm)

Have his canines come through? Does he have his 1st year molars through yet? Both these can cause havoc with sleep & cause NW's.

Does this help?

[MummyEvie]

Hi Sianie

Thanks so much for taking the time to reply.  He has his first year molars through (though not all the way out), and is in the process of cutting his canine incisors (they are partially through) so after these are all the way through he just has the 2nd year molars to go. He's always got his teeth a little bit ahead of schedule and it doesn't usually affect his sleep. 
I guess getting teeth and dealing with the 2-1 nap transition together will affect him more though?!

Since I posted my situation earlier I took a look through all the toddler routines and was actually surprised at the length of naps toddlers his age and older are still taking so it did make me feel more comfortable that it's not UT.  I always have to wake him up from his 1 long nap which I didn't have to do with his 2 short naps as he obviously wasn't tired enough to stay down any longer than that. 
Question - If I put him down at 12 and he sleeps past 2 should i let him sleep on or as you say should I stick with the routine of 2 hours nap at the same time every day?
I think you're right that switching back and forth can't be helping - I worked quite hard to get him out of the habit of napping at about 10:30 as I think he'd got so used to it.  It's hard when he's at daycare too as they often seem to ignore my requests to keep him up!  Anyway I'm going to stick with the 1 nap a day, I know he can cope with it fine and is happy all day so it's not an issue stetching his A time.

Another question - if he does NW and is awake a couple of hours in the night should I let him sleep a bit more at nap time or put him to be a bit earlier to avoid OT?  DH suggested today that we do 2 naps again as he missed out on 2 hours of sleep last night bit I insisted 1 nap as just as you have said I want to avoid messing him around.
What did you do when your DS woke in the night?  I feel bad just leaving him but likewise don't want to go in and create any AP situations when if he isn't upset / crying?

Thanks again for your advice, I really appreciate it.

[sianie]

I guess getting teeth and dealing with the 2-1 nap transition together will affect him more though?!

Yep! My Ds was cutting his 1st year molars just after we transitioned to 1 nap & it caused a few NW's & some OT (teething can make them more tired). Don't underestimate how much canines & molars can affect LO's sleep, even if they haven't been that bothered by it before....molars & canines are the hardest teeth for LO's to teethe & are notorious for causing sleep to go wonky. You could try a meds dream feed in the early hours (say 1/2am)...use an oral syringe to administer...these really helped with my DS's NW's.

Generally when LO's 1st transition to 1 nap you let them sleep as long as they need....most will naturally wake at around the 2hr mark...some sleep up to 3hrs! It's a bit of trial & error trying to see what works best for your LO....some Mums cap at around 2hrs as they find that their LO's night time sleep starts getting affected by them having too much day-time sleep.

When my DS wakes at night I generally leave him to re-settle as much as possible.....if he's mantra crying rather than a distressed cry then I leave him be....once his cry escalates then I intervene. Usually I can re-settle with my voice (I try not to take him out of his cot) & with my hand on his back.

[~inbalance~]

I'm fairly confident, like you've realized, that you're not dealing with UT. 

DS1 got canines around 15-16mos and they were by far the worst teeth out of all of them!  So I think you can safelyl assume that they are playing a large part in his sleep disruptions.  Actually I think it's great that he will still take one long nap!

You are very lucky that he will nap 2+hrs, so I think you should be consistent with that one nap and stick to it as much as possible.  It is normal during this transition for LOs to occasionally need 2 naps if they get OT, but if he is napping well than keep it up.

I would do an early bedtime where necessary to make up for lost sleep. 

[MummyEvie]

Great - and thank you again.  It means so much to get a second opinion (and a realiable one!).  So many people I speak to say oh he's waking up at night it must mean he's not tired enough, but I've learnt the hard way that it really is not that simple.

Yes I feel very blessed with the long lunch nap as in the past we have been at the mercy of short naps which is horrid. In fact I think I first posted about extending naps and getting out of the OT/UT loop. Fingers crossed we don't get too OT this time around.

I've just come off the phone with a very cross hubby who has collected DS from nursery.  He said DS was falling asleep on the girl's shoulder who brought him out.  Apparently they chose to ignore my instruction for 1 nap today and put him down at 10.30 where he slept for 1.5 hours then refused an afternoon nap!  Which of course he would because he woke at 12 feeling refreshed.  I'm doubly cross because I specfically said to them 'if he's really tired (which I thought he might be after his NW) and you don't think he can make it til 12 let him have a quick 10/15 mins shut eye so that he still has a long post lunch nap'   
So I've told hubby to take him home an put him straight to bed.  What a nightmare!

Thanks again and yes I think the teeth are a big part of it.  Now I've chatted with you I'm sitting here thinking what a trooper he's being really when you think about the changes, teeth, 2 naps some days, 1 nap another and nursery messing things up!   

[MummyEvie]

Sorry Martina just realised you are not Sianie! The Team Liz footer threw me.

Thanks both for all your help

[~inbalance~]

He does sound like a trooper!  I can tell you he is handling teething and the 2-1 much more gracefully than my DS1 did! 

Hope that tonight doesn't end up too messed up dispite the daycare fiasco, and that you can get back on track tomorrow. 

[sianie]

Apparently they chose to ignore my instruction for 1 nap today and put him down at 10.30 where he slept for 1.5 hours then refused an afternoon nap!

How annoying! It definitely sounds like it's worth a conversation with the nursery to make it very clear about the routine they need to be following (they are being paid to do this after all!)

[annette.xx]

Hi there

just wanted to add 15 months is the start of another phase of separation anxiety - so the teeth will have woke him and now he wants to check you are still there!!

I had sooooo many NW at this age - stick to the same routine you will definately come out the other side soon!!

Annette.xx

[natmoon]

Thanks for posting mummyevie, my daughter is 16 months and has just started NW this week. Her routine is pretty much the same as your toddler.
My DD was awake last night for 2 hours! She was not upset and I could hear her gigglying and talking to herself. Eventually I did have to get up to hear when she did get upset.  She is teething at the moment but im going to try cutting her nap down over the weekend to 2 hours not 2.5 (sometimes 3 hours) and see how that goes.
She is in care 4 days a week and I ask her carer to wake her after 2.5 hr. So will be interesting to see how the weekend goes and will let you know if it helps.

[MummyEvie]

Thanks everyone. Well we've had a mixed bag this weekend. Thurs night he woke at 03:00 am very upset and took me ages to get him to settle. Friday night I didn't hear anything from him except a brief waking at four am but he didn't cry.... which I was thrilled about. Then Saturday night he woke at four again but crying the house down. I couldn't settle him so gave in and brought him into bed with us which I have only ever done once before. After about an hour and a half he went back to sleep. Tonight has been just awful; he's been unsettled all evening finally resulting in a very upset wake up at 10:30. Meds, cuddles, comforting etc and at nearly 1am I still have an upset unsettled baby. And I'm exhausted
I've stuck with the same routine each day with a minimum of 2hr nap at lunch and in bed by 7 at the latest.
He's just stopped crying now, got himself in a state every time left his room but he's stopped now :,( it's all very heartbreaking and I wish I knew what to do to fix this situation so I don't have to lie here worrying about him all night.
I'm guessing all these NW are taking it's toll and he's losing valuable sleep time? How can we make it up? Longer nap? Earlier bed? Thing is he seems so happy & full of beans in the day?
Thanks again to everyone for their input!

[~inbalance~]

I would see if he'll have a longer nap to make up for it, and failing that then try an earlier bedtime.

It really does sound like teething to me.  I hope that it doesn't last too long!! 

[natmoon]

Hi there, sorry to hear things have not improved but my daughter has continued with her night wakings as well. Friday night she was awake for 2 hours, saturday wasnt so bad but she was awake on and off last night for most of the night. Today she was at care and only slept for one hour which is so unlike her and it took the carer a long time to get her down.
She is definately teething so am hoping it will all settle down real soon.
So sorry I have no real good advice but just wanted to let you know Im going through the same thing and I hope it doesn't last much longer.

[MummyEvie]

Thanks Martina am trying to keep the OT monster away.
Hi Natalie, sorry to hear you're going through it too, these teeth have alot to answer for dint they?! It's always good to know you're not alone when things like this happen. Fingers crossed for tonight. So far so good!