16 Month Night Wakings - Too much daytime sleep?

[MummyEvie]

Hello All

It's been ages since I posted here, must be a sign that everything has been going okay I guess?

Anyway I need some opinions on my son's recent night wakings.  First here's the vital info as always requested:-
He is 16 months old.
Current Routine:-
Wakes anywhere between 6 and 7.
Breakfast 7.30/8.00
Activity
Lunch 11.45
Nap - 12.15 to 2.15 (I have to wake him up - normally let him have 2 hours, more if teething etc)
Activity
Tea - 5
Bath - 6.30
Bottle - 7.00
Bed -7.15/7.30

(Now until a month or 2 ago he was still taking 2 short naps most days, especially at nursery where he is very active.  So in place of his long lunch nap he'd have maybe 2 naps of 45 minutes, but often shorter.  But it meant I had to keep pushing out his bedtime as he wasn't tired after having a pm nap.)

His night waking started a few weeks ago, around the 2am mark.  I have a video monitor still in his room so I can see him when he wakes.  He would wake and lie there sometimes for up to 1 hour eventually crying until I went in to settle him, but then often still lying there awake after I'd put him back down.
At that time I read that night wakings are often as a result of OT so I made sure that he had a long lunchtime nap and that he was in bed in good time if any signs of tiredness showed up.
But I still got night wakings.
Then I saw that he got all 4 canine incisor teeth breaking through and so I put it down to that.

Since then we have been away at friends and here and there with the bank holidays and he has gone back to taking 2 short naps (on journeys to and from etc) and we had no night wakings.
Yesterday as we were at home I went back to 1 long lunch nap (12:20 - 14:20)
He had an active day and was asleep in seconds of going down at 7.15 but then he woke at 01.00 and didn't settle back to sleep until 02.30.  He didn't wake up cying he just lay there then eventually stood up at the side of his cot.  We gave him some calpol in case it was his teeth and tried to put him back down again.  This resulted in him being v upset and my husband sitting with him until he was nearly asleep.
He woke up at 06.00 this morning and was happy chatting in his cot until I went and got him up.  He seemed in a good mood although did yawn a couple of times on the way to nursery!
He's got a lovie for sleep time which he absolutely loves and will suck and cuddle to settle himself.

So now I'm stuck wondering what it is about the 1 nap that's upsetting his nightime.  Is it overtired or undertired??
If it's undertired I could reduce his lunch time nap but then I'm worried he'll be super tired at bedtime?
If it's overtired I can let him sleep more in the day and or bring his bedtime forward a bit??

If anyone can share the benefit of their knowledge or experience I would be very very grateful!

Thank you

Evie

[sianie]

Hi there!

It could be that he's still taking time to adjust to 1 nap. My DS the same age & we transitioned to 1 nap around a month ago & it's taken a few weeks for him to settle into the new routine, which isn't too dis-similar to your, my DS generally sleeps 12-2pm & a 2 hr nap at this age is pretty spot on.

I wonder whether the fact that he's had some 2 day naps again have thrown his body clock a bit? I would try a few days of 1 nap (I'd go for 12pm)

Have his canines come through? Does he have his 1st year molars through yet? Both these can cause havoc with sleep & cause NW's.

Does this help?

[MummyEvie]

Hi Sianie

Thanks so much for taking the time to reply.  He has his first year molars through (though not all the way out), and is in the process of cutting his canine incisors (they are partially through) so after these are all the way through he just has the 2nd year molars to go. He's always got his teeth a little bit ahead of schedule and it doesn't usually affect his sleep. 
I guess getting teeth and dealing with the 2-1 nap transition together will affect him more though?!

Since I posted my situation earlier I took a look through all the toddler routines and was actually surprised at the length of naps toddlers his age and older are still taking so it did make me feel more comfortable that it's not UT.  I always have to wake him up from his 1 long nap which I didn't have to do with his 2 short naps as he obviously wasn't tired enough to stay down any longer than that. 
Question - If I put him down at 12 and he sleeps past 2 should i let him sleep on or as you say should I stick with the routine of 2 hours nap at the same time every day?
I think you're right that switching back and forth can't be helping - I worked quite hard to get him out of the habit of napping at about 10:30 as I think he'd got so used to it.  It's hard when he's at daycare too as they often seem to ignore my requests to keep him up!  Anyway I'm going to stick with the 1 nap a day, I know he can cope with it fine and is happy all day so it's not an issue stetching his A time.

Another question - if he does NW and is awake a couple of hours in the night should I let him sleep a bit more at nap time or put him to be a bit earlier to avoid OT?  DH suggested today that we do 2 naps again as he missed out on 2 hours of sleep last night bit I insisted 1 nap as just as you have said I want to avoid messing him around.
What did you do when your DS woke in the night?  I feel bad just leaving him but likewise don't want to go in and create any AP situations when if he isn't upset / crying?

Thanks again for your advice, I really appreciate it.

[sianie]

I guess getting teeth and dealing with the 2-1 nap transition together will affect him more though?!

Yep! My Ds was cutting his 1st year molars just after we transitioned to 1 nap & it caused a few NW's & some OT (teething can make them more tired). Don't underestimate how much canines & molars can affect LO's sleep, even if they haven't been that bothered by it before....molars & canines are the hardest teeth for LO's to teethe & are notorious for causing sleep to go wonky. You could try a meds dream feed in the early hours (say 1/2am)...use an oral syringe to administer...these really helped with my DS's NW's.

Generally when LO's 1st transition to 1 nap you let them sleep as long as they need....most will naturally wake at around the 2hr mark...some sleep up to 3hrs! It's a bit of trial & error trying to see what works best for your LO....some Mums cap at around 2hrs as they find that their LO's night time sleep starts getting affected by them having too much day-time sleep.

When my DS wakes at night I generally leave him to re-settle as much as possible.....if he's mantra crying rather than a distressed cry then I leave him be....once his cry escalates then I intervene. Usually I can re-settle with my voice (I try not to take him out of his cot) & with my hand on his back.

[~inbalance~]

I'm fairly confident, like you've realized, that you're not dealing with UT. 

DS1 got canines around 15-16mos and they were by far the worst teeth out of all of them!  So I think you can safelyl assume that they are playing a large part in his sleep disruptions.  Actually I think it's great that he will still take one long nap!

You are very lucky that he will nap 2+hrs, so I think you should be consistent with that one nap and stick to it as much as possible.  It is normal during this transition for LOs to occasionally need 2 naps if they get OT, but if he is napping well than keep it up.

I would do an early bedtime where necessary to make up for lost sleep. 

[MummyEvie]

Great - and thank you again.  It means so much to get a second opinion (and a realiable one!).  So many people I speak to say oh he's waking up at night it must mean he's not tired enough, but I've learnt the hard way that it really is not that simple.

Yes I feel very blessed with the long lunch nap as in the past we have been at the mercy of short naps which is horrid. In fact I think I first posted about extending naps and getting out of the OT/UT loop. Fingers crossed we don't get too OT this time around.

I've just come off the phone with a very cross hubby who has collected DS from nursery.  He said DS was falling asleep on the girl's shoulder who brought him out.  Apparently they chose to ignore my instruction for 1 nap today and put him down at 10.30 where he slept for 1.5 hours then refused an afternoon nap!  Which of course he would because he woke at 12 feeling refreshed.  I'm doubly cross because I specfically said to them 'if he's really tired (which I thought he might be after his NW) and you don't think he can make it til 12 let him have a quick 10/15 mins shut eye so that he still has a long post lunch nap'   
So I've told hubby to take him home an put him straight to bed.  What a nightmare!

Thanks again and yes I think the teeth are a big part of it.  Now I've chatted with you I'm sitting here thinking what a trooper he's being really when you think about the changes, teeth, 2 naps some days, 1 nap another and nursery messing things up!   

[MummyEvie]

Sorry Martina just realised you are not Sianie! The Team Liz footer threw me.

Thanks both for all your help

[~inbalance~]

He does sound like a trooper!  I can tell you he is handling teething and the 2-1 much more gracefully than my DS1 did! 

Hope that tonight doesn't end up too messed up dispite the daycare fiasco, and that you can get back on track tomorrow. 

[sianie]

Apparently they chose to ignore my instruction for 1 nap today and put him down at 10.30 where he slept for 1.5 hours then refused an afternoon nap!

How annoying! It definitely sounds like it's worth a conversation with the nursery to make it very clear about the routine they need to be following (they are being paid to do this after all!)

[annette.xx]

Hi there

just wanted to add 15 months is the start of another phase of separation anxiety - so the teeth will have woke him and now he wants to check you are still there!!

I had sooooo many NW at this age - stick to the same routine you will definately come out the other side soon!!

Annette.xx

[natmoon]

Thanks for posting mummyevie, my daughter is 16 months and has just started NW this week. Her routine is pretty much the same as your toddler.
My DD was awake last night for 2 hours! She was not upset and I could hear her gigglying and talking to herself. Eventually I did have to get up to hear when she did get upset.  She is teething at the moment but im going to try cutting her nap down over the weekend to 2 hours not 2.5 (sometimes 3 hours) and see how that goes.
She is in care 4 days a week and I ask her carer to wake her after 2.5 hr. So will be interesting to see how the weekend goes and will let you know if it helps.

[MummyEvie]

Thanks everyone. Well we've had a mixed bag this weekend. Thurs night he woke at 03:00 am very upset and took me ages to get him to settle. Friday night I didn't hear anything from him except a brief waking at four am but he didn't cry.... which I was thrilled about. Then Saturday night he woke at four again but crying the house down. I couldn't settle him so gave in and brought him into bed with us which I have only ever done once before. After about an hour and a half he went back to sleep. Tonight has been just awful; he's been unsettled all evening finally resulting in a very upset wake up at 10:30. Meds, cuddles, comforting etc and at nearly 1am I still have an upset unsettled baby. And I'm exhausted
I've stuck with the same routine each day with a minimum of 2hr nap at lunch and in bed by 7 at the latest.
He's just stopped crying now, got himself in a state every time left his room but he's stopped now :,( it's all very heartbreaking and I wish I knew what to do to fix this situation so I don't have to lie here worrying about him all night.
I'm guessing all these NW are taking it's toll and he's losing valuable sleep time? How can we make it up? Longer nap? Earlier bed? Thing is he seems so happy & full of beans in the day?
Thanks again to everyone for their input!

[~inbalance~]

I would see if he'll have a longer nap to make up for it, and failing that then try an earlier bedtime.

It really does sound like teething to me.  I hope that it doesn't last too long!! 

[natmoon]

Hi there, sorry to hear things have not improved but my daughter has continued with her night wakings as well. Friday night she was awake for 2 hours, saturday wasnt so bad but she was awake on and off last night for most of the night. Today she was at care and only slept for one hour which is so unlike her and it took the carer a long time to get her down.
She is definately teething so am hoping it will all settle down real soon.
So sorry I have no real good advice but just wanted to let you know Im going through the same thing and I hope it doesn't last much longer.

[MummyEvie]

Thanks Martina am trying to keep the OT monster away.
Hi Natalie, sorry to hear you're going through it too, these teeth have alot to answer for dint they?! It's always good to know you're not alone when things like this happen. Fingers crossed for tonight. So far so good!

[MummyEvie]

Hi Everyone

So I thought I would check back in and give an update on how things are going.  We've had good and bad.
The good - we've stuck consistently with the 12-2 nap and that seems to be going pretty  Apart from a couple of recent upset wake ups at the hour mark (due to teeth and possibly OT) where I've had to intervene, he's coped with the nap transition pretty well.

The not so good - The NWs (until last night) had started to improve too however we have had LOTS of EWs.  For the last couple of weeks he's woken at 05.20 on the dot every day standing at the side of his cot and crying until we go in.  He doesn't cry loudly to begin with it's just that whingy 'can you come in please' cry.  So I have tried to leave him to see if he would settle back down but he just escalates getting himself upset so I have to go in.  He's never been one to sleep later than 6:30/7:00 at the very latest but 5:20 is just so early!

Last night was pretty rough.  He woke up 1am and got himself in a pickle, DH went to him and gave him Calpol (he's still cutting his canines and walks around with his fingers in his mouth all day) but he wouldn't settle and DH ended up taking him in the spare room with him where he finally fell asleep at 3am.  He started the day at 6am.

I'm not sure what to do about the EWs?  When he wakes at that time I try and ensure his day isn't too long and that his lunch time nap is pulled forward a bit.....but I'm reluctant to keep making his bedtime earlier and earlier as worry he will wake earlier. 
Equally I'm starting to worry about his total hours of sleep.  For example last night he will have only had 8 hours (with the 2 hour wake up in the middle) and if he wakes at 5:20 tomorrow he's not had any opportunity to catch up.

Can anyone give any advice on routine tweaks?  Or should I just ride it out because it could be teeth related? 
What does everyone do when their LOs wake early - leave them, cuddle them, take them in with them or just start the day??

I'm sure he's upset due to his teeth but I'm finding it hard to know how much to give in to and whether I'm setting myself up for bad habits?  How does anyone really know?

Just a reminder here is his routine:-

Wake - 05.20 at the moment!
I go into him and usually spend some time in his dark room giving him a cuddle on the chair in his room.  He's happy to curl up with his lovey but hasn't nodded back off again as I thought he might.
6.00 - Get him up and dressed
6.30 - Beaker of milk
7.30 - Breakfast
11:30/11:45 - Lunch
11:45/12:00 - Nap
14:00/14:15 - Wake up from nap
15.30 Snack
17.00 - Tea
18.15 - Bath
19.00 - Bed (asleep within a couple of minutes)

How long does this canine incisor teeth business last?  I feel bad for my little man 

Thanks again to everyone who has commented, it helps so much to know you guys are out there.

[sianie]

It does still sound like he's being bothered by teeth....unfortunately, molars & canines are the worst!

DS got his 1st year molars through recently & in total it took around 8 weeks (on & off) for both top & bottom sets to come through. Canines should be quicker to come through as they are more pointed teeth but they are also notorious for messing up sleep.

We usually get EW's when DS is teething....I usually leave him in his cot for as a long as I can to re-settle but once he starts getting upset I go in & give meds if necessary. If this doesn't work I get him up for the day & shift the day forward slightly so that his nap & BT are earlier.

I know what you mean about earlier BT's but TBH they do make a real difference in keeping OT at bay (which can happen with EW's & teething)...even though you may not get a later WU, at least they have had more overall night sleep iyswim?

On a positive note, he seems to have transitioned well to the 1 nap 

[~inbalance~]

Hi, I think you are taking the right approach.  Try to leave him in bed as long as possible and getting him up at 6 is a good idea (not before).  I think you have room to move bedtime a bit earlier if needed.  I understand your worry though, some LO's do not tack on sleep at night.  It depends on him really, my DS1 would but with DS2 earlier bedtimes do mean earlier wakeups, so use your judgement. 

Does he wake on his own from his nap after 2hrs or do you wake him?  I would let him sleep a bit longer and keep bedtime at 7 if you can.

Canines took about 6wks for us and were definitely the worst!  It does end, hang in there. 

[MummyEvie]

Thanks both

Well last night was great.  He went down and was asleep by 7. He slept like a log all night, I was even worried whether he was okay at one point as he didn't peep at all!
But then he woke up 05.10!!  He stood at the side of his cot and cried until I went in.

This morning I felt that it really wasn't his teeth more that he has got in the habit of waking up at that time and wanting me as opposed to being in pain. 
I said our 'sleepy time' phrase and tried to put him back down.  He really wasn't having any of it.  He just kept getting back up and standing at the end of the cot crying more and more.  I repeated the process a number of times (as this has worked in the past with sleep training) conforting him, laying a hand on him etc, however the longest he stayed down was about 8 minutes before standing back up and yelling the house down.

At 6am I decided it was quite long enough for him to be so upset and so went in and picked him up.  He was instantly calm.  We have an armchair in his room so I sat quietly with him there for a while and within 30 minutes he had fallen asleep again.  So he must still be tired (unless he was just emotinally worn out from all the crying?).

I checked his teeth again this morning and I would say his canines are about half way through.  Can they still be causing him pain?
I don't want to be heartless but similarly I feel he's waking during a light sleep cycle in the morning and just wanting me or DH to go in rather than actually needing us.
Where initially he might have woken in discomfort I'm worried it's now habit.
I'm prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt a while longer and I guess night wakings and or displays of pain during the day should also give a fair indication.
BUT if this has now become a bad habit how do I break it? 

I've dealt with Sepratation Anxiety and had to do a fair bit of sleep training in the past using WI/PD/WO; but these EWs feel like a different challenge and I hate that he starts the day getting so upset.  I am a morning person and when I had him I accepted that I would never get lie ins again, I'd be happy with 6am but just after 5 is less than ideal!

 

[sianie]

SA can flare up again when LO's are ill or teething so one could be exacerbating the other if that makes sense?

Usually, once the teeth have broken through LO's tend to be in less discomfort BUT I know with DS that he seemed bothered teeth until they pretty much fully came through (also sometimes there are other teeth also starting to come through that aren't showing yet?).

I would carry on with WI/WO when you get an EW....I would be aiming to get him up to start the day no earlier than 6am.....even if he doesn't go back to sleep, with consistency he should learn that he doesn't get 'rewarded' by waking early (i.e. being taken out of his cot etc).

What do you think?

[MummyEvie]

Okay I will carry on with that approach.  Thanks for the advice.
I wanted to check in with you guys, as I was lying there listening to him crying the house down this morning thinking 'am I being too hard on him'?
I'll carry on with the consistent WI/WO method until 6am. 
I'm also considering getting Gro Clock after reading the successes of others. He's 17 months old and a sharp cookie so I'm sure we can work this in too??  Would you recommend not introducing it yet and just sticking iwth WI/WO or start straight away working into the morning 'wake up at 6' pattern?

[~inbalance~]

I agree with everything Sian has said.

No gro clock experience here, but I wonder if things don't improve soon it would be worth a shot?

[sianie]

We use a Gro-clock for DD but she was over 2 yrs old when we introduced it.....not sure whether your LO would be too young as they still have little impulse control at this age.

Have a look at the Gro-clock support thread....might help you decide...

http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=176864.0

[MummyEvie]

Update!
Tuesday night / Wednesday morning - Bedtime was 7pm as usualy but he didn't fall asleep until 7.45, think he was overtired and finding it hard to switch off.
Anyway we had one brief shout out at midnight and then he slept until 05.45.  He started to cry at the end of his cot but it was very half hearted, just little whinges not full on tears or screaming and he even sat back down himself at one point.
I went in at 6am and made a big fuss of starting the day and being cheery and happy. 

Wednesday is my day off and so I had him at home with me all day.  He was fairly tired all morning so I gave him an early lunch and he was in bed asleep for his nap at 11.45.  He slept a full 2 hours then got himself up just before 14.00.

We had a lovely afternoon and I paid close attention to having a good hour wind down and then in bed for 7pm.  He was asleep by 7.05pm and slept like an absolute log all night!  My alarm for work went off this morning at 05.55 and I couldn't believe I hadn't heard from him.  I switched on the screen to the video monitor and there he was fast asleep!  He woke up at 06.25 but didn't cry - I wouldn't have even know if he was awake if I hadn't seen him on the monitor he was just standing there waiting at the end of his cot.  So I went in singing and he jumped up and down at the end of his cot he was so happy.  Big cuddles lots of singing and jollyness it was the best morning we've had in a LONG time!   

I'm not going to start the party yet but I'm feeling pretty positive that we are heading in the right direction again; having 7 hours of uninterrupted sleep certainly helps too!

I'll keep you posted on how we go but wanted to share the good news and say thanks again for taking the time to share your advice and experience. 

[~inbalance~]

GREAT update!  I hope it continues! 

[sianie]

Yay!