still allergic to breast milk?

[bjutka1]

Some of you may remember me from the allergy boards. I have been on a very strict elimination diet for 8 weeks now. My LO is 4 months old now and still EBF. She has improved somewhat (constant screaming 7-8 hours a day went down to about a couple of hours), and is gaining weight very well.

Her symptoms are the following still:
excessive wind (usually wakes her up from her sleep)
very disrupted sleep (30-45 min naps 4 times a day)
very frequent feedings (every couple of hours - doing block feeding so there wouldn't be a foremilk/hindmilk problem)
cradle cap
occassional eczema that sometimes flares up on her cheeks and sometimes goes away - when it does, her skin is beautiful
silent reflux
feeding through the night (every 2-3 hrs)
wakes up from naps and at night in pain - pulling legs up, only settles if I feed her
sour smelling watery poos
sour smelling breath
puffy eyes
red circles under eyes

She is on no medication at the moment, because the Ranitidine didn't do anything and the Losec just made her windier.
My diet looks like this: rice, rice bread, gluten free digestive buiscits and pasta (made from rice and maize flour), rice cereal, rice milk, potatoes, sweet potatoes, carrots, parsnips, chicken, turkey, peas, pears, Pregnacare vitamin supplement and Omega 3, sunflower and olive oil in cooking

I try some vegetables out occassionally - onions, leeks and everything in that family failed, garlic, broccoli and cauliflower and courgettes seemed okay.

Any ideas? Is she still intolerant to something in my diet? Would she do better on neocate? Is her silent reflux caused by allergy and would go away on neocate? Will she improve when solids are introduced?

Any ideas from experienced mummies would be apprecieated.

Thanks,

Jutka

[deb]

I'm looking at the Pregnacare site and I'm not able to find a place where it might mention any additives to the vitamins themselves that might be problematic.

Are you getting any leafy greens in your diet? I'd skip cabbage, broccoli, chard, and kale - the crucifers in general - as they can cause wind, but some steamed spinach and some lettuce would add some good bio-available nutrition to the diet.

Since you're already on an elimination diet, have you tried using any probiotics as a supplement for her? There are dairy-free ones available. Here in the States I know Culturelle has a dairy-free variety, and someone in the UK can probably point you in the right direction. Probiotics are an important part of healthy gut flora and help us digest our food. There are specific probiotics for babies that start out with flora that would normally be there; adults have a wider variety of gut flora.

Also noticing a lot of rice in the diet. Rice was Josie's first solid and we did that for a couple of days before we realized it was NOT a good thing on her tummy. We had to try a number of different grains till we found one that worked, and in retrospect, having learned a lot of things since she was a baby 9 years ago, I probably would have cut out grains entirely and ONLY had meat and veg and fruits.

Legumes might be part of the problem; maybe cut out the peas?

Oh, and what are you drinking beverage-wise?

[bjutka1]

I only have water apart from the rice milk I take with my cereal. And the occassional fennell or chamomile tea. But really mostly filtered water.

If I can't eat rice, what do I have for breakfast?

Deb, do you have a list of safe fruit and veg? Because I'm at a point where I feel that I should really just give up eating... After all this time, I really should have reached baseline but it feels like I'm in the dark...

I told the allergy people about salysalets and other food chemicals but they said it's really proteins that cause problems - in their opinion. But what if they are wrong? I then shouldn't have olive oil, right? And I would use it quite a lot.

I just feel that I have tried so hard and for so long - with very limited results. Very depressing.

[bjutka1]

Thought I would write down a few days worth of my menu - see if you guys have any ideas

A couple of weeks ago I went to see a kineziologist (meant to be a very good one!) and started putting things back in my diet according to her advice. She told me to cut out lamb, asparagus and onions - these were the things she still said Julia was reacting to. But there were a whole load other things that she said should be fine.

2 May
Breakfast: rice cereal, rice milk, rice bread dipped into olive oil and honey
snack: grapes
Lunch: roast chicken with garlic, potatoes and cauliflower, roasted plums with honey and cinnamon
snack: olives
Dinner: roast sweet potato, roast chicken, lettuce
snack: rice bread

Before this she was quite good, but after today, she was very windy and unsettled in the evening and through the night with runny poo at 4am

Maj3
Breakfast: rice cereal, rice milk, rice bread dipped olive and flaxseed oil
Lunch roast chicken with garlic, mashed potatoes, cauliflower
D rice, chicken legs, carrot and parsnip mash
snack: rice bread
a Very bad night, up every hour, lots of wind, mucousy poo in the morning

Maj 4
B: same as before
L gluten free pasta, sweetcorn, turkey thighs
snack grapes, raisins, sunflower seeds
D turkey thighs, chips, courgettes
Windy at night, waking 2.5 hourly but not as bad as night before


Maj 5
Breakfast: same
Snack: blueberries
L pasta, turkey and sweetcorn, olive oil, pregnacare
rice cakes
D potatoes, turkey mince, aubergines
Worst night of all, frequent wakings with wind, and skin rash appeared in the middle of night

Maj 6
B same
Snack, sweet potato, pear
L tukey mince and potatoes (took out aubergine) turnip
snack rice bread, maple syrup, pear
D chicken, chips, trunip

skin rash cleared by midday, still very windy, better night but still lots of wind

Any ideas/ suggestions?

[deb]

I haven't been following your posts specifically, sort of seeing them interspersed with others' posts, and I have a hard time keeping track of whose LO is sensitive to what, and whose LO hasn't yet been diagnosed.

Eloys would be the one here to ask about sals. If you're eliminating primarily for those, that's a whole other set of foods to look for and a set to avoid. We use coconut a lot here but that's a higher-sal food, if I remember rightly. (You'd think I would having asked about it so often LOL) If your allergist isn't really conversant with sals, though, I'd demand to see someone who is familiar with them. Not sure who would help there, though, as I'm not conversant with your health care system at all.

Here I'm finding we're feeling really good without grains, or grains as seldom as we can use them (or as seldom as I can get DH to use them when I'm not around ). For breakfast as often as not it's eggs (which you're eliminating at this time but may be able to add in later), and if not that, I've been known to eat supper leftovers for breakfast, for real. A chicken thigh makes a very satisfying breakfast, for example, as does pretty much any kind of meat. Takes a while to shift gears into not having "traditional" breakfast food for breakfast, but some people do "breakfast for supper" from time to time. I also have been known to cook millet and/or quinoa for breakfast, and if you soak grains overnight (8 hours) before cooking them, they cook faster AND are easier to digest, so on my way to bed I'd measure out the amount of water I'd need to cook the grain, put it right into the cooking pot with the grain also measured, and in the morning turn it on. Takes a good long while to get up to boiling and then cook too, but some people also use a slow cooker on a timer to start it cooking before waking up. Quinoa, millet, and buckwheat are all gluten-free as well, and if you're able to get oats that are certified gluten-free, that can be used for cereal as well. Oh, and if you soak rolled oats overnight, they cook up in the morning in like 5 minutes. Here's a list of gluten-free grains besides rice and corn: http://glutenfreenetwork.com/gluten-free-cooking/what-grains-are-gluten-free/ Note comments there about rice reactions, BTW.

I found that when I drank rice milk while nursing Natalie, she had spinach-green poops from the carageenan in the rice milk. (Someone here on BW worked out the connection for me.) I had to stick with Rice Dream only till she outgrew her sensitivity - the store brand was a lot less expensive but had carageenan in it for texture. That might be part of it, anyway.

Was she on a weight-appropriate dose of the Ranitidine? It's quite weight-sensitive and lots of times it seems that it's not working and either the dose started out too low or the baby gained weight so the dose became too low. There are other med options besides Ranitidine and Losec; has your paed had anything to say about those?

Here's a link to the CRC board - http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?board=13.0 - and a particularly helpful sticky about treatments for reflux - http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=175920.0.

Oooh, you posted just before me! You might try eliminating potatoes and courgettes, which are both members of the nightshade family (along with tomatoes and peppers); some bubs are sensitive to those.

[*Liz*]

Hi 

This degree of ED really is out of my depth so I will try and find some help for you on that score.

But the silent reflux - is that medicated at all?? Any investigations at all??

What I am thinking is that even some very food sensitive babies also have pure anatomical reflux that they need medication to control. My DD is outgrowing MSPI, but still needs her reflux medication, so she obviously did have bog standard reflux as well as the food sensitivities.


What are poops like? Any blood or mucus?

[bjutka1]

Meds for reflux were trialled before but didn't work. Poos are mucusy, runny and sour smelling but no blood.
What is the farting pear food guide? I read somewhere about it.

[deb]

If you only trialled 2 reflux meds, you may have ended up stopping looking before you found one that works.

If she's still in reflux pain, she will be feeding more frequently than she should, and feeding every 2-3 hours at 4 months, including nights, is too frequent, so I'm thinking she's still in discomfort. The too-frequent feeds may in and of themselves be contributing to the problems with her tummy: wind, gurgling, etc.  It might be worth investigating that avenue again.

When she was on ranitidine, how much did she weight and what dosage was she on? It's possible she was undermedicated. Also, it can take a week or more to really make a difference. Josie was a different baby in 24 hours, but many babies have a more gradual improvement even if that's the most effective med for them. And if the dosage was a little under for her weight, it might not have been enough to make a difference.

Losec is outside my realm of experience, but since it caused other digestive issues for you, it would make sense not to trial that again, at least for a while.

[EloysH]

Hi  

Wow that you have been on this diet for so long and so committed to breastfeeding  


It seems you have eliminated all irritating proteins so the allergy clininc that is helping you needs to help you with a next step, the proteins simply aren't in your diet.  Your diet is very high in natural food chemicals such a salicylates and amines, so if you want to try and eliminate these, you can try the RPAH diet. See here for relevant links.  

http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=189899.0

 If you still really want to breastfeed and don't want to do a neocate trial then personally would try the RPAH diet for 4 weeks and see if she improves.  I am suggesting this diet as you have tried everyting else and these kind of food intolerances are much more common that we realise.

It does sound like her reflux needs meds trial again, sometimes we just need to up the doses and tweak for a while.The symptoms you describe as not improving are more related to lower gut and probably diet related. For reflux meds it is the upper tract that we are getting comfortable, primarily.

I would say that food intolerances and allergies are usually in addition to anatomical reflux - they certainly were for both my boys.  So both conditions/issues needed to be treated separately with meds, alternative therapies and diet.  Of course some babies do onyl have relfux as a side effect of food intolerances, if that were your case you could still get no the emds to get uinder control and once the diet is working you could go off meds and see what happens.

If you could find a paediatric allergist, or dietician versed in food chemicals that would be helpful.


A neocate trial would let you know how much of your diet is irritating her.  If she improved greatly in a few weeks then you would know.

Many hugs and let me know if I've answered your questions.. xxx

[bjutka1]

Thanks for that, Eloise! So you really think she is food chemical intolerant? Could it not be say a fructose intolerance (something I have just read about) I am sooo tired of all this. I really am struggling. She hates neocate, I tried but can't face to go through putting her on it again.

What's jumping out at you from my diet - what's the worst thing that would annoy her?

If I start weaning, will that not improve things? When would you expect her to grow out of this? Or do you not grow out of food chemical intolerance?

[*Liz*]

Meds often don't work when they are very tiny colicky babies (as they are just too little and too unsettled for us to see the wood for the trees iyswim?).

I would have thought it was worth revisiting before switching to neocate especially since you want to BF and avoid the introduction of elemental formula. It is hard to get a 4+ mth old to accept it but it can be done.

(((hugs)))

[EloysH]

Has she ever had a stable period of time with no lower gut symptoms on this diet??  If so then I would say she is probably not food chemical sensitive.  However if she has been up and down and windy and mucus poos the whole time on the diet then I would say it is something you are currently eating incombination with reflux.

If you are up for it I would try the low food chemical diet, it involves eating foods low in amines, salicylates and glutamates for 4 weeks, and yes I really do think its your best bet.  If she improves, you can go through the systematic food challenges to identify culprits.  I have a food challenge protocol I can send you if you go down that route.

If she is food chemical sensitive, yes they do become less senstiive with time.  For example K could only tolerate low to mdoerate through my milk at 3 motnhs old, now he can tolerate quite a high amount of highs all eaten directly at 13 months.  But then I have another friend who is has a baby with ther same issues, and at 14 months he still only tolerates low foods and 5 teaspoons a day of moderate.

[*Liz*]

The other thing about the diet Eloys recommends is that it has a defined structure and plans for all the food challenges. It gives you a strong basis to work on and as the foods are all grouped it increases the range of foods you can eat and also that your baby can have once they start on solids themselves.

It is also sound and nutritionally balanced to meet your requirements for BFing and your babies ultimate growth.

For example - you need to make sure your calcium requirements are met - and an antenatal vitamin is not sufficient of there is no additional calcium in your diet as they only provide about 20% of the RDA.

I excluded dairy, soy and gluten when I was feeding but did look at further EDs but decided that I couldn't commit to it while I was feeding my whole family. With that approach i accepted that sometimes I would get mucous and unsettled behaviour, but I decided I preferred that to FF. I did check with my paed that I would do her no long term harm with this approach though.

[bjutka1]

Trouble is I kind of have done the low sal diet. For a good 4 weeks this is how my diet looked like:

Protein: chicken, lamb, red lentils (very rarely)
Carbo: potatoes, rice (not even gluten free pasta or buiscits)
Frut: pear, golden delicious apple - peeled
Veg: carrots, parsnips, squash, sweet potatoes, cauliflower, asparagus, brussels sprouts, peas, onion, garlic, celery, shallots, leeks, swede
Fat: sunflower oil, pure sunflower spread
Maple syrup
Drink: filtered water, rice milk
spice: seasalt
Snack: rice cakes

The meat was bought fresh from butchers and eaten or frozen. I wasn't so stict with fruit and veg.

With this diet, she settled a lot more during the day and was happier but still only catnapped and was up at night every hour or 2 (or 3 if I was lucky.) There never was a time when she was completely settled, slept and napped well and had consistently good poos.

Then after my visit to the kineziologist, I took out lamb, onions, lentils and asparagus as she said she can't tolerate these but added other things in that are quite high in sals like blueberries, aubergines and most of all, olive oil that I used very frequently. I was laso worried about essential fatty acids that why the olive oil seemed like a good choice. However, this past week she is defo a bit worse than she was a couple of weeks ago.

Don't know where to go from here. I could try going back to low food chemicals as you're suggesting. Anything in this previous diet that you think I have done wrong and why she never settled properly?

I do think it's a lower gut problem, reflux is only due to intolerance. Tbh, I'm getting fed up now - feel like I have done so much and have taken out so much and yes, she is better but nowhere near where she should be. Good news that this won't do her long term harm. I sometimes feel I'm being stubborn and selfish for breastfeeding and should just put her on neocate and end her suffering. (and mine) But then something always holds me back - she was terrible when I tried it a few times - screaming and not taking it.

[EloysH]

Wow, 4 weeks well done again    I really hate to pick apart your ED especially when I completely understand how much effort and siffering go into it. But there are a couple of high and very high salicylate foods in there, and just one is enoguh to tip the scles of they are sensitive

 So everything is ok except for:  onions - very high  (dose of 100 in chemicals, where as a low is 1, and a high is 10). Parsnips, squash and cauliflower are highs also. Golden delicous peeled, carrots  and asparagus are actually moderate and would only be allowed on limited serves  like 1-2 per day (1 serve = 100g or one cup). 

For breastfeeding mothers, the recommendation is to go on the moderate chemical diet but watching the no or moderate serves. So my conclusion is if she is food chemical sensitive, she wouldn't be able to reach a baseline on that ED. 

 There are other foods you can eat on that diet like most beans, legumes, and gluten free grains if you want to try again.   

It sounds like she was better on the first diet which is lower in sals (food chemicals) so there is some food for thought.
Another point - the meats can't be slow cooked or fried till charred.  They will be high in amines.

Well for the record I've done kineasiology for Kai too, as well as a full course of NAET    I found that whilst this has strengthened his immune system and rasied his tolerance for these foods they aren't completely "cured".  The theory is that there is still an inherited toxic load  in his body and also alot coming from the environment and food.The load is a problem for him because  he doesn't have all the enzymes developed yet to tolerate food chemicals, his organs are still working over time to clear all the stuff out.  He just needs more time  Its all very hocus pocus but just some food for thought    Feel free to ignore 

On the fructose  - I have no idea.  Maybe a good GI or paediatric allergist could help???

[*Liz*]

Do you have a proper paed GI involved here?? I would be worried that something else is amiss here rather than just food intolerances.

[bjutka1]

She has been seen by a private paed - he only thought she had reflux and couln't really say anything to the mucousy poo issue at all. On the other hand, the allery paed thought it was purely food intolerances but didn't like the food chemical intolerance when I suggested it.

I agree that she was better on the first diet. I am inclined to go back to that though the problem is that I don't think she is only food chemical intolerant - I think there are multiple issues here. She was windy after eating beans and lentils and onion family. Peas seemed ok. So this really doesn't leave me with much.

How does this look:

rice, rice bread, rice cakes, gluten free pasta, gluten free buiscits, maple syrup
potato, lettuce, brussels spouts? (again a windy food), celery, garlic, swede
carrots, peeled cucumber or zucchini, sweet potato, beetroot - only one of these only once a day?
peeled pears - 2 a day

Am I getting enough nutrients here? Any other suggestions? Is pregnacare safe to take? I thought parsnip was moderate...

Don't worry about pulling my diet apart, that's the whole reason I posted it.

[bjutka1]

Are there any signs of food chemical intolerance as opposed to other protein intolerances? Something to look out for that might make it easier to identify.
But I mean, what else could it be? I feel I really have given up so much.

[EloysH]

Has she had her IGE antibodies and IGG tested?    That is a good indicator of whether it is a protein intolerance - something that triggers an immune response. But I think that these antibodies can also indicate problems areas like  gluten/wheat.  To be honest I don't know a great deal about that.  But these are all tests that a paed or GI would do.

Food chemical intolerances aren't an immune system response.  As far as outward symptoms are concerned I  don't think there is a great deal of difference.

Salicylate symptoms are typically: red cheeks, rashes, red burnt bottom, sore tummy, reflux, broken sleep, wired, hard to settle mucus poos, loose poos.  Kai only got the mucus poos and had slight red cheeks at 3 months old.

ok so a take on those windy foods - when I asked my dietician about those she asid the food chemical sensitive babies often have a problem with the windy foods because they have a "goopy gut" - those where her words!  She means that the onion family/leeks/brussels/cabbage  contain natural sulphur and if cooked too long release alot.  Sulphur causes gas.  If the gut is sensitive the sulphur will cause problems.     The lentils are a prebiotic and also cause gas so these should be firstly soaked for 8 hours before eating, and secondly eaten in small quanities at first.  They are ok to introduce when their gut is faring a bit better.  Kai tolerated them all well around 8 months old.

As for the foods they all look ok - do you still have the charts I sent you?  There are more foods to eat listed there.

[bjutka1]

My problem is that all lists are sooo different. Like the one my dietitian gave me differs greatly from the one you sent. And I don't know if it's because it's a different area (UK) or just a wrong list. What other foods would you suggest?

Bamboo shoots - ok
beans -can't have cos it's windy
brussel sprouts - windy
cabbage - windy
celery - ok
chives - wouldn't really fill me
choko - don't think we can get it here plus it's windy
garlic - only very little is ok
leek - windy
shallot- windy
swede - ok

100 gr of moderate isn't very much twice a day...

Altogether she is a lot happier than before but sleep is a big issue.

Does neocate not have sals? Or would that defo work?

Thanks

To answer your question, only a skin test was done and that all came up negative.

[*Liz*]

What was the list your dietician gave you for though? Was it one for low chemical diets?? He diet sheet will vary depending on what the actual aim of the diet is.

You really need to pick a diet and just stick to it I think  .

Neocate is the gold standard alternative for odd sensitive children. There is no better.

[EloysH]

ok just to clarify, Kai tolerated all the windy foods in MY diet fine from about 4 months old onwards.  I made sure to cook everything less than 5 mins so much sulphur wasn't released.     If you have to eliminate windy the diet really isn't feasible or do-able    Not sure where this leaves you in terms of Ed's  

  The brussels are pretty important for the vitamins.  You can eat fresh salmon as a moderate serve for your essential fatty acids.  

All I can say is my list is tested annually and by a world leading allergy unit.  I guess you would need to check the currency and sources ??  They may be current and reputation and it may be genuine variations in chemical content due to differing soils and conditions.

100g or one cup.

As far as I know the neocate is low food chemical.  My dietician suggested a neocate trial, I couldn't imagine her suggesting something that is not low chemical.

[bjutka1]

Thanks. Gonna ring the dietitian to find out about the list and how up to date it is. It was a sal list she gave me. There are some major discrepancies there: on my list, onion is low!
Salmon is defo no go. I tried it once and we had a terrible night! Diarrhoea all night long.
Are homemade chips okay? Or can they not go brown like meat either?
Also, how about the gluten free pasta? That has rice and corn flour in it. Is corn flour not high in sals?


It's so depressing. Just don't understand why she is so sensitive. I really don't know where to go from here. I'm scared of everything I eat...

Would pregnacare be okay for the vitamins?

[Buntybear]

Hi, Looks like you are getting loads of help so just wanted to drop off some hugs and say you are doing brilliantly.  It is SOOO HARD doing these diets - esp if you are not seeing the results.
xxx

[Canwi]

Wanted to throw out the idea of eosinophilic colitis being the issue.  This would explain why the reflux meds didn't work well for LO as they work at the top end of the digestive tract, and why LO has a lot of lower end issues (gas, mucously poops etc)
I know you are sick of being to doctors, but did wonder if a paediatric GI might be where you will get the best answers. 

[bjutka1]

Hi - I thought about this (it's also called EE isn't it) but there is no way to really deal with it apart from ED or neocate, am I right? Os is there something else?

I kept pushing for a paed GI but I'm not getting anywhere. Without a failed neocate trial they're not gonna give me one...

[EloysH]

Are homemade chips okay? Or can they not go brown like meat either?
Also, how about the gluten free pasta? That has rice and corn flour in it. Is corn flour not high in sals?

Yes they are as long as they in low chemical oil without synthetic antioxidents.  The browning process is only relevent to proteins, a chemical process happens with the amino acids breaking down and thus amines develop.

Gluten free flour is often high sals usually die to maize flour - corn flour though is low sals amazingly.    Something about the amount of processing takes the sals out and also  its usually derived or made from maize starch which is low.  So maize starch is low, maize flour is high.

Gluten free pasta from rice and cornflour should be fine.

I think that is mean about not letting you get a paed GI without a neocate trial.    

[*Liz*]

Eosinophilic colitis is treated with either ED or neocate - does your LO get bleeding in poop? Colitis gives blood and mucous as well as tummy aches.

[bjutka1]

No blood but mucous and tummy pain, yes.

[Canwi]

Have the docs done a blood in poop test to look for microscopic amounts of blood? 
EE is eosinophilic oesophagitis/esophagitis (depending on where you in the world)

[bjutka1]

Will suggest that, see what they say. But I think they will just say neocate, neocate, neocate...

Had a brilliant day yesterday with very little crying and a settled girl. Only to be followed by an awful night, lots of nwks (every hour towards the end) and diarrhoea in the morning... But I suppose it's early days for sals to clear from system? When did your LOs start to sleep and nap better?

My diet yesterday:
B rice cereal with rice milk, rice bread, sunflower spread and maple syrup
snack peeled pear
L Homemade Chips done in sunflower oil with chicken and swede
D rice with a few peas, chicken and iceberg lettuce
snack before bed: rice bread, sunflower spread and maple syrup

How does this look like?

It says online to cut all vitamin supplements. But we do need the calcium supplement, right? And I would also be inclined to take the pregnacare multivitamin because otherwise I would be worried about vitamins. Also worried about essential fatty acids. There is no Omega 3 in my diet, only Omega 6. Would an Omega 3 supplement be too high in amines? I can't take salmon as she reacts very badly.

What's your thought on homeopatic remedies given by kineziologist? I was given one but too scared to use it in case it's high in chemicals or something.

[deb]

I can't speak to the amines in different Omega 3 sources, but omega 3's in general tend to be anti-inflammatory, and it's better to have more omega 3's than 6's - the ration is important, not just the actual amount. Most people get too much omega 6 and not enough omega 3.

There are other sources of omega 3's, including hemp and flaxseed and other oily fish - but again, I don't know about the amines in those either.

[EloysH]

Definantly no fish oils supplements are allowed, too high in amines.  What other omega 3 supps are there - flawseed oil is  not allowed - yet it is moderate to high in salicylates. Yes your diet won't be very good then, without the salmon.   Is gee a good source of omega 3 - I know it has all the lovely essential fatty acids.  What i would do is as soon as she reaches baseline, introduce something with moderate chemical into your diet and treat it as a food challenge for the omega 3's like flaxseed oil or else gee.  The hemp is very high sals unfortunately.  You wuill know very quickly  if it is a problem or not.

How old is she again?  For me it took a good 4-6 weeks to get to mostly symptom free (no gas, no sore tummy, no squirming, no premature wakings), but i was eating too many moderates, so maybe you will see results quicker    Once we did get to baseline, and I started food challenges, he would react for about 24-48 hours and then go right back to the baseline in about 24-72 hours.  So once you hit stability (baseline) you are on a pretty good wicket.

[deb]

I knew Eloise would know!  Thanks so much, E - you're a wealth of knowledge!  

I had a question for you about something I thought of while this thread was on my mind: On another parenting forum a long time ago another parent posted about sals - which was where I first heard of it - and she said that if her DS accidentally got something high in sals, he could take ibuprofen and it helped with the effects temporarily. Have you heard of anything like that?

[EloysH]

Well same to you Deb 

I had another thought, what about egg yolks?  I know you can't have them, but again once she is stable you could try for an egg yolk challenge  as that would give you not only omega 3 but also A, D and all the other important stuff.

Deb, I think it may have been an epsom salts bath.  Alot of the online people I know do this if they are reacting to sals/amines/glutamates/perservatives.  It lessens the severity of the reaction, not sure how it works though! 

I had another thought, what about egg yolks?  I know you can't have them, but again once she is stable you could try for an egg yolk challenge  as that would give you not only omega 3 but also A, D and all the other important stuff.   

So you are going ahead with the diet without windy veg then?  I would worry about where you will get your vitamin C from???
 

[bjutka1]

Hi girls

Thanks for all that. Are you suggesting I give her a bit of nurofen then?

Talked to the dietian and she has come round to Failsafe idea though said would check with the doc immunologist as well. She also said I could start to wean her on baby rice (she is 20 weeks old)

Also been to see the kineziologist who did muscle testing on her and she came out bad on everything in onion family, asparagus, brussel sprouts, but fine with cabbage. Is that believable? Not sure, what do you think? What other sources of Vitamin C are there? Is pear not it as fruits in general? She also came out bad with all vitamin supplements including Calcium but she said she desensitized her to Calcium and Omega 3 supplement. Great ideas about Omega 3 - problem is - I don't know if I ever gonna reach baseline...

So if I follow RPAH and take into consideration waht she said - this is how my diet looks like

Protein: chicken, turkey, lamb (she also said beef and veal came out ok but I am not sure)
chickpeas, beans (though aren't they too windy?) no lentils she said
Grains: rice, millet, buckwheat
Fruit pears (she also said a few others but since they are high in sals - I'm gonna avoid)
Veg: potato, lettuce, bamboo shoots, celery, swede
Moderate: carrots, parsnips, cucumber, beetroot, peas, sweet potatoes, zucchini (100gr serve 2 times a day)

What do you think? Kineziologist also said she would be very worried about me at this stage as I haven't had proper nutrition for 2 months, Julia is still quite bad with allergy and she was pretty much saying to consider neocate now. She had 4.5 months breastmilk. She is very bad and windy again today. Just don't know how I would ever get her to take it and would probaly be mourning breastfeeding for months...

[EloysH]

Oh forgot to add definantly take the calcium supplement - 1200 mg per day, make sure it is "balanced" that is contains the minerals required for calcium absorption.  I also took a pregnancy vitamin, mostof ok. I will check the ingredients to loko out for nasically it is anything that has artificial colours or flavours. For example if you were to take vitamin C it needs to be pure absrobic acid.  It tastes very sour!   I was taking it for a bit along with zinc when I was breastfeeding as I was very depleted in that area.

On the neurofen thing - no that has no benefit dietwise.  I think it has sals or amines in it, it definantly has preservatives and flavours so it not allowed.

I think you are in a very tough spot here.   If it were me, I would make a decision based on nutrition for my myself, whether the stress level of eating that way is tolerable and how important it is to exclusively brestfeed.   What about combination formula and BM? Altrhough that wold mean BW gives way to formula after a few months right?

I would get some more advice on your diet via a nutritionist/dietician....  ask what are you missing vitamin and mineral wise from your foods, see of any foods from the low or moderate fit that and then desensitise to those.   If it is "low' is should be safe,.  If windy, if you cook for less than 5 mins, the windy causing gas won't be released so in my mind should have minimal impact on you and her.  I am thinking green beans and brussel sprouts are pretty important.  Also the lamb for your iron. Sweet potato is high in vitamin A and D, that would be a moderate to consider.

[bjutka1]

Thanks. Great ideas. Do you believe in desensitising by kineziologist? She said she did that for her for calcium and omega 3 so I should be able to take these then? Is white fish allowed on the diet? How do you make sure your meat is well cooked if it's not allowed to brown or slow cook? Have you had beef on your diet or did you avoid it?

There was a section on the failsafe diet explained page on babies and children where it says that neocate is high in glutamates and aspartate.
http://failsafediet.wordpress.com/the-rpah-elimination-diet-failsafe/babies-and-small-children/
Is this is true, neocate would be no good, then, right? I tried her on it yesterday again but she arched her back and screamed from the top of her voice. Not sure I would ever get her to take it.

How did the list I posted yesterday of allowed foods look like to you?

[EloysH]

Ok so, the bit you are worried about in the link I think is this:

Formulae containing ‘hydrolysed’ or ‘partially hydrolysed’ proteins (often sold as ‘comfort’ proteins or ‘hypoallergenic’ products) contain free glutamates and aspartic acid

This doesn't apply to neocate because it is not a hydrolysed protein formula, it is amino acid based. They are talking about hypoallergenic formulas here.  Also,  I think they are saying "some" of these formulas have the free aspartic acid or free glutamates.  My paediatric allergist who used to work at the RPA allergy unit for years and years along side my dietician recommend neocate for food intolerant babies.  There is now way they would recommend formula with glutamates and additives. 

Remember that th website above is essentially a "blog"  of a person who has been on the RPAH diet for many years...with very useful information, but it is not endorsed by the RPAH.  The official published information is in the" RPAH elimination diet handbook" by the way there is nothing on formula there.  So we need to be careful when judging what she says.


As for kineasiology - whilst I am happy to have done it for Kai and am currently getting it done for myself... I do believe that the process helps, but i have no evidence to suggest it has "cured" or completely desensitised anything for me or Kai.  All I know is that my little boy gets less sensitive with time and improved alot after the treatments.  But i have never banked on them, I prefer to fall back on results from food challenge and then careful liberalistion - as the diet protocol suggests.   I am science by trade, this influences things alot for me. My personal belief is that the kineasiology strengthens the immune system, however, due to the inherent toxities in our environment, the inherited toxities in our babies, and in the foods we/they eat, sensitive little babies like mine still will struggle to process food chemicals, even if desensitised.   This is why I additionally have Kai on supplements to help with the clearing out of food chemicals issue.

Yesterdays foods looked ok.

Yes I ate beef too.  Early on I roasted them in the oven on medium heat, if it got too brown on the outside I just cut those bits off.  I would  also crumb some chicken schnitzel peices in egg replacer and rice crumbs, very thickly, then fry  in  apn so the crumbs got browned, not the meat.  I would also cook things like homemade sausages from chicken mince, leek, garlic, and veges in a bubbling bath of failsafe stock.  If cooked in 5 mins or so that's fine.   I only had to follow the amine guidelines for about 9 weeks as he passed the amine challenge 

White fish - it is up to you, fish and shellfish are on the list of allergins I think so if you are going completely allergin free, keep it out.   Ask the dietician???  I kept it in and it was never a problem, and so glad that I did. There are some nice oily white fish that are probably high in omega 3 too.

 

 

[bjutka1]

Thank you.

Had a great night last night. Instead of the every hour or two wakings, she woke at 11pm, 3am, 5:30am and 7:30am. I know it doesn' sound good but it's a lot better than before.

Then when I went in this morning, I found new rashes under her little eyes... Why is this? The skin reaction is pretty quick so it would mean that I had somethign yesterday to upset her, right?

This was my menu:

B: rice cereal, rice milk, rice bread, sunflower spread, lettuce
L buckwheat, roasted chicken leg, 100gr fried courgette
D homemade chips, lightlty fried chicken breast, and 100gr sweet potato
snack: a pear

The only thing I can think of it that the oil needs changed in the deep fat fryer.

[EloysH]

Is the oil free from synthetic antioxidents?  Oh are the zucchinis peeled?  If not they are high sals 

A rash under the eyes may not be food related, but a contact rash.  Usually food issues will show up on the cheeks.

Yay for the better night!

[bjutka1]

The oil just says: pure sunflower oil - nothing else. Bought in tesco. The zucchinis are peeled and so are cucumbers if I have some. Her rash seems to be just on one cheek and it's quite hot to touch too so maybe teething?

Last night was awful again with 1-2 hrly wakings and lots of wind.

My meny yesterday:
B: rice cereal, rice milk, rice bread with maple syrup
L rice, chickpeas, turkey, lettuce
D chips, 100gr sweet  potato, lamb, celery
snacks: pear, sliced cucumber on rice bread

Then a bad night followed with lots of wind and the rash that previously disappered came back under eyes and beside lips...