Struggling with Awake Time/Naps w/my 5 mos old.

[amyylyn]

I am struggling very hard with my 5 mos old.  He was NEVER a good sleeper but he hit 16 weeks and it all went south and now at 21 weeks it isn't ANY better and I am at my wits end.  Every day ends with me sobbing because I can't figure him out and he is crabby, tired and miserable ALL the time.

He sleeps most nights from about 7 to 6/7 with one short (20 min usually) waking around 1 am to eat.  His naps are atrocious.  I have tried awake times for 45 minutes up to 2 1/2 hours and can't find one that fits.  No matter WHAT time I lay him down he will stay awake in his crib til he hits at least 2 hours which made me think okay 2 hours must be right but then he is OT and only sleeps 28 minutes.  So obviously that is wrong but he will NOT go to sleep in any shorter time.  I don't know what to do.  This morning I laid him down at 65 minutes, he stayed awake 55 in his crib, fell asleep at EXACTLY 2 hrs and slept 29 minutes.  Yesterday afternoon I laid him down for his afternoon catnap after being awake 2 hours and he wouldn't sleep at ALL.  He screamed for an hour at which time I got him and he ended up being awake until bedtime at 7.  So he was awake 5 hours straight.  I am so frustrated and lost I don't even know what to do anymore but let him just stay up until HE crashes.  NOTHING else seems to be working.  I ended up crying myself to sleep last night because I feel like a HORRIBLE mother that I can't see to get this right.  He has NO sleep cues until he gets to eye rubbing and crankiness.  He doesn't yawn or do any of the stuff the book says to look for so I am going completely blind here.  Help?

[amom526]

I dont have much help, except to say that I'm in a similar boat. My baby has no sleep cues that I can see until he's already overtired. I find that putting him down earlier is usually better, but that doesn't seem to be working for you. DS always wakes up between 25-40 minutes after he goes down-but sometimes he goes back to sleep, sometimes not. I know how frustrating it is to spend your whole day putting the baby to sleep!
Is it possible that he's hungry? I only asked this cause my babies napping was horrendous, until we realized he was just not eating enough. we have seen some small improvements since then.

[amyylyn]

That is exactly how I feel, like I spend my ENTIRE day EVERY day trying to get him to sleep.  I am so frustrated at this point I regret quitting my job to be sahm cuz at least then I would be getting a break and someone else would be dealing with it instead of me.  He eats 30-35 oz a day.  Usually 5 feedings (sometimes six) of 6 oz each.  He also has cereal in his bottles because he has reflux so he definitely should be getting enough food, he won't eat anymore.  Thanks though!  I am glad it's not just me.  Sigh.

[amyylyn]

Just wondering if anyone else has anything to add?   These short naps are getting worse as now they are affecting his nighttime sleep.  THe last two days he has woken at 6 am instead of 7.  Yesterday my DH was able to feed him and get him to go back to sleep for another hour but today no go and he just woke from yet another 30 minute nap.  I even tried extending his awake time out as according to the guide here awake time is 2-2.25 hours for 5 mos and I was doing less than 2 usually so I let him stay up 2 hours this morning and STILL he only slept 30 minutes.  I am finding myself becoming short and impatient with him and it is seriously affecting the whole family.

[Colin Macs Mom]

bumping up the list for you

[~Sara~]

Hey, hon...I'm sorry you're having such a rough time with naps.  I've BTDT, too, when DS was about that age.

Can I ask what your winddown routine looks like and how long it is?  Also, what do you do to his room when it's time to sleep (e.g. darken it with curtains, swaddle (more to him, but same idea), white noise)?

Also when he does take a short nap, do you try to extend it; and if so, what technique(s) do you use?

It does sound like he is overtired, but we're here to help get to the bottom of this.  If you'd post his EAS, too, that would be helpful...just what he did, when he did it for the last day or so.

[amyylyn]

Thanks for replying!!  

For wind-down we go into his room and we sit in the glider and read a book, then we rock for approx. 10 minutes while I sing him his naptime lullabies and snuggle (if he will let me as sometimes he is SO overtired he is wound up and fights the entire process) then I lay him down with his paci, which he immediately spits out because he hates it, I tell him I love him and have a good nap, then I turn out his lamp and close the door.  His blinds are always shut so I don't need to shut them, but turning the lamp off makes it pretty dim in there.  Also he has white noise in the way of a fan that runs all the time in there too keep it cool as his room gets WARM for some reason.  Then he will fidget/cry/fight sleep for anywhere from 5 minutes to 1 hour depending how tired he is.  This morning I laid him down at 1 1/2 hours and he fought sleep for an HOUR, then slept 28 minutes.

This was his schedule yesterday (he actually had ONE nap longer than 30 minutes, shocking.)

Wake - 6:35 but left in crib until DWT of 7
Eat - 7:30 (he gets reflux meds twice a day and has to wait 30 min to eat)
Sleep - 8:34 to 9:02

It was too early to eat again so we played and then
Sleep: 10:34 to 11:52 (i was shocked)
Eat :  12:00
Awake time

Sleep: 1:34 - 2:09
More awake time just too early to eat
Eat: 3:15

Sleep - 4:38 - 5:15 (I laid him down at 3:45 because he was MISERABLE and he fought sleep for 45 minutes, screaming the ENTIRE TIME)
Awake time (whiny the entire evening)

Bedtime bottle at 6:35 - in the crib at 6:50, he fought sleep (even though he was falling asleep eating) until 7:40 pm

As you can see his schedule is a DISASTER but because he doesn't SLEEP long enough I can't stick to anything.  And half the time I lay him down at the right time but then he fights sleeps in his crib so long he is OVER tired by the time he actually goes to sleep.  His average fall asleep time is 30-40 minutes, and usually at least half of that time is screaming.

And I better go now as he just woke up from his second 30 minute nap of the day.  Sigh.

Oh as for extending, I have tried shush/pat, I have tried wake to sleep.. NOTHING works, once he is up, he is UP.  I have given up even trying to extend cuz it NEVER worked and just ed me off.

[~Sara~]

Grr, I just typed out this long response and it deleted!  Ah!  Ok, so to rip through:  Some ideas had:

1) Is his reflux full under control?  If not, that could really be contributing to the busted naps.

2) Since he does have reflux, have you noticed whether or not he sleeps better in someone's arms, in a carseat, sling, or swing?

All other suggestions are assuming his reflux is under control....
3) I think his A time is on the short side for his age.  Most 5-6 month olds are doing 2h15 for A times (awake time).  Is your DS closer to 5 or 6 months?  For that nap you posted where you laid him down after only 1.5h and he fought sleep, I think originally he fought it because he was UT; but then it gave him a second wind and he crossed over into OT territory, thus sleeping for only 30 minutes.

4) If he doesn't need the pacifier, I say get rid of it

5) After a short nap (anything less than ~1.5h), the following A time needs to be reduced by 20-30 minutes so that the next nap isn't OT.  It means juggling the EAS a bit, but it's OK   If you need to APOP a nap or two so that he gets caught up on his sleep, that's OK, too.

6) Have you tried any form of shh/pat with him to help him calm down more to go to sleep?  I know the patting can be disruptive for LOs with reflux, but the shushing or something similar might help him wind down more for sleep.

Also, I noticed that you're fairly new to the forums...so I have to ask: have you been using BW/EASY for a while already or are you just starting?

[~Sara~]

Oh as for extending, I have tried shush/pat, I have tried wake to sleep.. NOTHING works, once he is up, he is UP.  I have given up even trying to extend cuz it NEVER worked and just wee*ed me off.

For us, the only thing that extended naps was to use holding through the jolts: so DS never actually woke up.  If he woke up, that was it for us, too.  Have you tried httj?  We used shh/pat to get him to sleep in the first place and then httj to extend.  So, you just have to find what works well for him and you

[amyylyn]

His reflux is under control, other than an occasional wet burp or hiccups he hardly every shows signs of it.  Up until about 3 weeks ago he was sleeping in a Rock n Play until he started to try and flip in it so we had to transition to crib and while he slept great at night, his naps were still crapola.  He also doesn't sleep more than 30 minutes in arms OR his carseat.  He will NOT sleep in his swing at ALL.

I did extend out the first wake time to 2 hours, but since ALL his naps are less than 1 1/2 hours I am always taking 30 minutes off the wake time so therefore the rest of the day it is pretty consistently 1 1/2 hours (with the 30 minutes for short nap removed).  Also extending out the morning awake time didn't help either.  He went to sleep quicker ( about 10 min) but then only slept 29 min.  

I do shh/pat his tush while we are rocking and depending on his mood it can help.  He is at the point now where he FIGHTS being rocked, he will squirm, thrash, screech and try to throw himself off your lap, it's like he doesn't want to be rocked to sleep, which is why we started just laying in the crib versus actually rocking him to sleep.  Oh and when we were rocking him completely to sleep, he STILL only slept 40 min or less most of the time.  Sigh.

I am beginning to think he just HATES to sleep and if he wasn't ending the day a crabtastic MESS I wouldn't care honestly but he IS so obviously he NEEDS the sleep even if he doesn't THINK he does.

I could try holding him through a few naps to help him catch up but honestly since he won't sleep more than 30 minutes there either I am not sure how that will help??

Is it possible his FIRST awake time is really short and by missing that I am screwing up the whole day?  I mean I have tried 45 minutes all the way to 2 1/2 hours and nothing seems to work.  Today he has had 3 naps of 30 min each and he is tired I KNOW he is, cuz his eyes are bright red (like they are EVERY day) but he WON'T sleep!  Short of benadryl I don't know what else to try.

When is the jolt?  I thought it was 20 min, he makes it through that, it is usually between 29-35 and he wakes up.  We have been TRYING to do BW since 4 weeks but like I said, he has never been a great napper so it just doesn't seem to work cuz when he wakes up early, it throws the WHOLE thing way off.

[amyylyn]

Okay 2 hours of awake time in the AM is DEFINITELY too much.  I started his "wind down" at 1 hr. 35 minutes and he SCREAMED his over tired scream and tried to rip my face of during the entire thing.  I laid him down 3/4 asleep at 1 hr 55 minutes and it took 22 minutes to fall asleep.  He is most definately way over tired.  Sigh.

Edited to add, although he DID sleep over 1 1/2 hours so does that mean the time was right and he just hates being rocked during his wind-down maybe??  Oh why is this so hard? lmao

[~Sara~]

Hmm, I guess he could need a shorter A time first thing in the AM...But considering his age, anything less than ~1.5h would be on the really, really short side.  Some I'm a tad puzzled there.  How long was his nap?  I normally try a new A time for 2-3 days before saying an absolute yay/nay, just to give their bodies a chance to adjust, iyswim.

I wonder, though, if he's one of those LOs who like really short winddown routines.  I noticed that you started it 25ish minutes before he needed to be asleep; do you think he could have been reacting to the fact that maybe he wasn't tired yet?  Some LOs will fuss if they're getting winddown cues telling them they're about to sleep if they're in fact not sleepy.  Earlier, I know you said you usually allow 10 minutes for a winddown, so maybe today was just different.

I am totally NOT discounting what you say...I hope you realize that.  I'm just trying to get a sense of what's happening on the other side of the screen and trying to rule out all other possibilities. 

To answer some of your questions above:

I did extend out the first wake time to 2 hours, but since ALL his naps are less than 1 1/2 hours I am always taking 30 minutes off the wake time so therefore the rest of the day it is pretty consistently 1 1/2 hours (with the 30 minutes for short nap removed).  Also extending out the morning awake time didn't help either.  He went to sleep quicker ( about 10 min) but then only slept 29 min.

With short nappers, it does tend to get tricky, juggling the Es around the short naps.  But what you're doing is right.  You just shorten the A time after a short nap to try to keep the OT at bay.

I am beginning to think he just HATES to sleep and if he wasn't ending the day a crabtastic MESS I wouldn't care honestly but he IS so obviously he NEEDS the sleep even if he doesn't THINK he does.

I think he just has a hard time getting to sleep and staying asleep, like it's his body that's getting in the way.  My son was a short napper for ~2 months, and like you, I could tell he needed sleep, but his body just wasn't capable of extending sleep on its own.

When is the jolt?  I thought it was 20 min, he makes it through that, it is usually between 29-35 and he wakes up.  We have been TRYING to do BW since 4 weeks but like I said, he has never been a great napper so it just doesn't seem to work cuz when he wakes up early, it throws the WHOLE thing way off.

They have a series of jolts for the first 20 minutes as they drift off into the deep sleep phase.  Then at ~40-45 minutes, they start going into the light sleep phase and try to transition into the next sleep cycle.  It is at this 40-45 minute mark that we normally used httj with DS.  To be preemptive, we would actually go in at 35 minutes, put pressure on his arms/legs, and shield his eyes.  We did this until about the 1h mark.  It was long and back-breaking, but it worked for us.

Lastly, two other ideas I had: have you tried a swaddle?  Do you think he's teething (my DS was ~5.5mo when he got his first teeth)?  The consistent 30 minute naps make me think discomfort-related.

Let me know how the day goes *hugs*

[amyylyn]

He is at 1 hour 36 minutes for the first nap and still sleeping so I think maybe the 2 hours IS right, actually he was right at 2 hr 15 when he actually fell asleep.  Although, since he is going OVER 1 1/2 does that mean he was over tired?  I know it takes a baby an average of 15-20 to go to sleep so would that mean his awake time is 2 hrs or 2 hrs 15 but put him down at 2 hours to include falling asleep time IN his awake time?    I started the wind-down earlier thinking maybe he needed a little more of a transition from going to playing to sleep but I think the longer wind-down failed because like you said, he was still "awake" and sitting in the chair reading and rocking wasn't doing it for him. LOL  So for the next nap I will go back to 10 minutes but do lower key playing for 10 minutes before the wind-down, like playing pattycake versus jumping in his jumperoo!

The doctor told us at 4 mos his bottom teeth were starting to come in so I have been feeling up his gums and don't feel them yet so it is possible there is some discomfort but they haven't started to pop through yet.  We used to swaddle when he was in the rock n play but after his second night in the crib we had to stop because he flips himself onto his belly and sleeps there and so swaddling is out unfortunately. 

When he short naps it is between the jolts.  I watch him on the monitor and I see the 20 min jolt and he makes it through that and he jolts a bit again around 43 minutes if he sleeps that long but he seems to wake up BETWEEN those two jolts.  He will just all of a sudden lift his head and it's over at that point.  I ALWAYS leave him in there for 20 minutes unless he starts to scream to try and give him a chance to go back to sleep but its maybe 2 in 10 times he actually does. 

Now, I have read that awake time gets longer through the day so if his morning is 2 hours, should I extend out the next one?  5 minutes, 10 minutes ?

Thank you so much for trying to help! 

[Smurfette]

Hi amyylyn- just wanted to send you some virtual hugs! Short naps suck and I completely emphathize (especially on the crying yourself to sleep part!) Been there too and just wanted to say we're here for you. Hang in there!!!!!!!!

[~Sara~]

He is at 1 hour 36 minutes for the first nap and still sleeping

Wowzers!  I wasn't expecting that, but hey!!  That's great!  I'd shoot for ~2-2h15 A times for any A time after a 1.5h+ nap.

Now, I have read that awake time gets longer through the day so if his morning is 2 hours, should I extend out the next one?  5 minutes, 10 minutes ?

For some babies, yes, this is the case.  But they're all so individual.  I've seen LOs who like progressively less A time as the day goes on, progressively more, and some who's longest A time is in the middle of the day.  So, for your little guy, we'll have to wait and see.  As I mentioned above, we should shoot for ~2h for the A time after this nice, long, restorative nap (I am still just so stoked that he's done so well!).  We'll keep an eye on the kinds of naps he does with that A time for the next couple of days.  We *might* need to tweak the later A times, but I would say that the AM one is spot on!

The doctor told us at 4 mos his bottom teeth were starting to come in so I have been feeling up his gums and don't feel them yet so it is possible there is some discomfort but they haven't started to pop through yet.

OK...I just wanted to check.  He's taking a good nap now, so it might not have been discomfort-related at all; just needed some routine tweaking.

We used to swaddle when he was in the rock n play but after his second night in the crib we had to stop because he flips himself onto his belly and sleeps there and so swaddling is out unfortunately.

Again, he's sleeping so well, it's not a factor.  Plus, yes, like you said once they're rolling around, you can't really use it.

When he short naps it is between the jolts.  I watch him on the monitor and I see the 20 min jolt and he makes it through that and he jolts a bit again around 43 minutes if he sleeps that long but he seems to wake up BETWEEN those two jolts.  He will just all of a sudden lift his head and it's over at that point.  I ALWAYS leave him in there for 20 minutes unless he starts to scream to try and give him a chance to go back to sleep but its maybe 2 in 10 times he actually does.

It's actually really good that you know when he jolts.  I don't think we need to worry about httj just yet...let's see how he does for the rest of today and tomorrow with the longer A times

Keep me posted!