chronic long NW's after illness and failed reflux meds wean

[aidenmc]

(((((Hugs))))) Eloise. I know you used to do the hand on the back and want to avoid going back to that but I wonder if you would have success doing what I am doing. For most NWs I go in and sit in front of the crib, pat the mattress and tell him to lie down (although I'm still helping him with the soother). I can also comfort him a bit through the crib bars if he is upset. You know what  fighter S has been, but he's caught on to this. He really hated the PD. If I do PU it is only to feed (I know I know...will eventually get rid of that) as holding and patting to sleep in my arms was the biggest prop for him. Do you think K would go for that approach?

I also wonder if these sttn nights followed by NW nights are just part of the process of K eventually sttn regularly? From what I can remember with ds1 and 2 we had a similar pattern when they finally started sleeping through...

[EloysH]

Thansk Becky 

It was the same with Ds1 with sttn he used to do it a few times a week then progressed to full time. However with K. he WAS sttn every night before we hit the sickness and meds wean,  Maybe he has had to learn how to do it all over again because we did so much APOP to get through that patch?  the other thing that doesn't fit is that the NW's are still long, hes not going right back to sleep or settling himself.  We are doing a major cuddle session.

I think your method would work for K.  Except I do think that we need to leave the room, do you leave the room?  K will scream at us in the room and it will take a while to train him that we dont "help"him to sleep whilst we are in there. He is such a demanding personality.   He would be better to scream in anger on his own for a few minutes I think he would run ot of steam qwuicker that way. The most successful times we have done sleep training is some kind of WI/WO.  At the moment I cant get my head around dropping the PU, or only doing it until calm.  At the moment we are doing it until he is relaxed and he seems happy to go back into the cot and fall asleep the rest himself about 60% of the time.  If we were to change to only hold until calm, it wil be a major tease for him and very furstrating, I think he would need a stronger message.   I think that will be a major 3-5 night battle again - sigh. Give this kid and inch he takes a mile.

SO there must ba method that is the optimum one for us in there somewhere, just need to nut it out and build up enoguh "fed" up vibes to go through with it again.

last night he went to bed 630pm, woke at 4am, DH slept with him in his chair until 545am, where he was up for the day. So you can see we are just doing anything at the moment to get more sleep.

[my3girlsjde]

Can you drop the side of his crib? When E gets upset and demands to be picked up especially at bedtime, I can sort of lay right on her and cuddle her on her mattress so she's not being picked up. The effectiveness can vary and it's normally just at bedtime that it happens, but it got me out of picking her up. I haven't had to do it for a few weeks now and have weaned to, a back rub and now sitting next to the crib. We're getting better slowly. Very slowly and sometimes I do have to step out for a moment. Not CIO, but it's like she needs to get that energy out sometimes. It's just a moment and I go back in and she's ready to lay down and try again. The twins are the same with needing to get that energy out, although much harder to do it.

[EloysH]

I do like the sounds of that idea Vicki, but how do you prevent her from falling out in the night?

SO yesterday was this
4:45am wake
9:30 - 11:00amnap
no second nap - wouldn't take it at 4pm
Bed and asleep 6:20pm

For bedtime DH was in his room on the chair saying "shh" to get him off the last bit to sleep, as he kept standing up everytime he left the room.

Wake 4:30am for the day!!!!

He sttn, yay!  But still only slept 10 hours.  He was happy when he woke though.   He hasn't slept more than 10 hours at night for ages.

So I am resolved to just push the whole routine later and try and make the 10 hours of sleep end at a reasonable wake-up time at least.

Will try to do 2 naps again today as the thought of a whole day starting at 4:30am is pretty crazy.  I will hold him in my arms for 20 mins if I have to to get that second nap done.

I hope I am on the right track.

\

[my3girlsjde]

Yaaaaaay for sttn!!! I put the rail up after, and she hardly notices. Even if it wakes her, she's usually so drowsy she goes right back to sleep.

[aidenmc]

Sttn! Hooray! Now if it could just be at a better time. We are having afternoon nap issues as well as EWs before 5am too - but nothing close to sttn. Looks like you are getting there!

[EloysH]

thanks  for the messages 

Well I did the opposite of what I said, I kept him up till 11am to have one nap.

So he was up from 4:30am - 11am 

I got some advice from the ladies on BC's and remembered with Ds1 I solved the EW's with later naps and later bedtimes. 
 I will be  trying to psuh for 12pm nsp and 7:30-8pm BT over the next week or so.  Lets see how we go.  I haven't given that strategy I good go. I feel that he won't sleep more than 10-10.5 hours at this stage so later BT would make life easier for us all.

[huntersmummyinoz]

hi elo, have been away all weekend so sorry for late reply, i havent forgotten you

ok, so GREAT to see you are pushing nap back as that is exactly what i was going to suggest. i think you may need to look at a nap window. ie. so u r aiming for a midday nap, then earliest possible nap before that is 11.30am, NO MATTER what ridiculous time he wakes up in the morning. i think u need to spend a good week (or 2 or 3) really setting his bodyclock for naptime and bedtime to within no more than 30mins variance, and that will hopefully then reset wake up too. the other thing i would start looking at in order to move wake up time is to look at what time he has breakfast and start a 'not before' time with that too to get his tummy on the clock also. 

i was asking about J to see if he'd handle later bedtime so u can put K to bed first, but sounds like J will be fine going to bed earlier than K?? also thinking it could be easier on u and DH if u can align their routines a little more.

with the PU, do u think u could gradually wean it? ie. start a count in your head after he is calm. so count how long it is taking til u r ready to put him down now for a few goes. if the number is 30, then after a few days, count to 25, after a few days count to 20, and so on and so on so that u r putting him down earlier and earlier but slowly getting him used to it. do u think he'd go for that? that worked with DS1. (i know u r not 'supposed' to hold them too long and yes it can be a prop but i'm too soft to do hard core PD...) i also did what vicki is describing once i PD in cot in order to try and make him happier about being PD.

[huntersmummyinoz]

oh and any chance u think he'd go for a safe T sleep? since he likes the 'contact' could be substitute hand IYSWIM. i've just put K in his about 2 weeks ago (finally starting the swaddle wean, lol) and i've only had to resettle him at night once since putting him in this and he's teething! (he will call out briefly or on and off for a couple of mins and next thing i know he's asleep, definitely think he finds the pressure from it reassuring).

[EloysH]

Thanks Kirry, I have almost called you several times now    I am so happy you are giving that advice now, it feels right.  I have so new hope about this.  Please, please work. I will definantly stick it our for a few weeks. For sure, I will make breakfast no Earlier than 6:30am, to start and then try to push it out  further of he starts waking after 5:30am again.

So today went remarkably well, I am thankful that he is very easy baby to keep awake if out and about.

so we had:
4:30am wake
6:30am breakfast
10:30am lunch
11:15 am - 1:00pm nap
7:30pm bedtime (was actually aiming for 7pm, but we had visitors)

Should I stick to 7:30pm BT for a while, what nap time would you aim for - 12pm?  I think it will take a good week to get to 12pm nap time....

as for PD, I am still not getting my head around a plan yet.  What you say sounds do able.

 At nap time today I put him down in the cot and put my hand on his back for about 20 seconds and said "night night' .  As soon as I lifted my hand off him he stood up whinging to be picked up.  So I gave him a cuddle for about 2 mins, he became visibly relaxed.  I whispered that it was time to go in the cot and he was happy to do so, and I only had my hand there for 20 seconds before I was able to leave without a problem.  So that's what happens when all goes well.  But in the middle of the night this pattern repeats and repeats as he is not happy for the hand to be taken off his back, or not happy to be put down. That's why DH has modified things to sit in a chair and say "shh shh" for a while, at least he doesn't have to stand over the cot. Anyway, need to keep thinking about this more.

[my3girlsjde]

I also have the chair next to the crib, and we're gradually getting to a soother replug and shushing. It seems to be taking forever, but when I think it's only been a couple of weeks on this particular gw technique and 11 days since our switch to formula. So I'm thinking too that you could be looking at about 3 weeks. Not sure how you feel about that, but having a timeline for me makes me feel like it's NOT forever and I can happily survive that long kwim?

I do kwym about when it's a good bedtime it goes smooth like that and other times it's a marathon. I'd love to know why lol.

[aidenmc]

Vicki, have you figured out to get your lo to replug herself? It'd become a major barrier to GW for us...

[EloysH]

practice practice and more practice .......   get him to practice through the day.

Well we had a long NW again last night. 2 am to 4am then 5am wake-up.   Its every second night now. 

I am pretty sure it was discomfort related and I do feel its because of the sheeps milk yoghurt I have been giving him.   It looked like a bit of teeth thrown in there too.  At least he was really trying to get back to sleep last night and letting me put him in the cot and lying there happily. He pood at 2am, and he has done 3 poos this morning at its only 8am.  So taking him off the yoghurt, and lets hope that helps these NW's.

[my3girlsjde]

Ugh - that's a lot of poo! E's taken to pooping right before bed which gets her wound up as she hates the changing process now and gets herself ot. Usually asleep now by 820 Hopefully taking him off of the yogurt will help his bowels slow down a bit. Just a thought though - would bananas at supper to slow things down be a possibility?

Becky - soother replugging is lots of daytime practice. Even in the crib I put it in her hand and have her replug. Just matter of fact and quick so as not to stimulate too much.

Fingers crossed for a good night for you Eloise - though I realize now I think it's morning there right now.

[EloysH]

thanks Vicki     Yep he has about a bananna a day anyway, as it's his favourite.   Lets see if taking him off the yoghurt helps will know in 24-48 hours.

I kpet him up till 11am again, I don't know how he lasted, it was very messy.