Need advice about babies dropping naps

[lizzymac99]

I have posted here before about my dd's ridiculous 2 hour schedule for the past several months due to the fact that she's a short napper and can only handle 1.25 hours A time in between.  I have a new problem... the past week or so she has been really fighting her last nap of the day and yesterday and today she cried the whole time (an hour each time) even while I reassured and patted her or did PU/PD.  Both times I ended up having to give up without her sleeping because it was approaching 6pm and her bedtime is around 7pm.  Since her second last nap is usually done by 3:30pm or around there this means that she will be awake 3 to 3.5 hours!

My first question is, does she fight this nap so hard now because she is trying to drop it and move to 4 naps a day instead of 5??  She is 16 weeks old this week.. I would LOVE to have one less nap a day to worry about or plan around but I am unsure how to drop this one and not leave her OT...  Should I be trying to stretch A time from 1.25?  She will be 4 months old in a week, if so how best to do this without her becoming OT?  I also have to add that she continues to wake up from her 40 minute naps smiling and alert and I have no idea how to extend a nap if the baby isn't tired anymore...  Once in a blue moon she will throw in a random longer nap now but this is not everyday and I can never predict when it will happen.  Her earlier naps in the day she does not fight like this last one.

Any thoughts or advice welcome! 

[Smurfette]

Hi there

Can you post your EASY for us? Are you still on a 2hr routine? You want to try to be transitioning to a 4 hour one around this age, but you won't be able to jump into it without getting her OT.
She might also be a bit too young for PU/PD.

It sounds like she might be needing an increase in A time as LOs around your age range about 1hr45-2hour of A time.
Here's a quick link for you to look at...
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=64158.msg476652#msg476652

[Shiv52]

Your EASY may help. 

Have you tried to extend the length of time between feeds yet?  It is ok for your EAS to be EASAEAS while you are getting short naps.

At 4 months most LOs are moving to 2 naps plus a CN but with short naps you will need the extra one.

[lizzymac99]

Hi all, don't have much time here as I think she is waking up again now... I posted my EASY on another post I made a few days ago in this NAPS board called "at my wits end with dd's day schedule" if anyone has a chance to go and look at it there...

It is essentially a 2 hour easy which I know is ridiculous but I have been trapped in for the past couple months with her not eating well and doing these 40 minute catnaps all day with an A time of 1.25 hours.  I would love to extend the A time but need to know how I know she's ready or how to do it without her getting OT.  My biggest fear is her becoming OT and then messing up her night sleep which is good so far besides a couple of EW at 5 am in the last few weeks. 

Thanks again, any advice welcome

[Smurfette]

Hello again
I just copied and pasted your EASY from the other post...hope that's ok.
Awake at 6:00am
E-6:10
A 6:00 - 7:15
S 7:15 - 8:00
E 8:10 (but often takes almost an hour)
A 8:00 - 9:15
S 9:15 - 10:00
E 10:10 (like pulling teeth)
A 10:00 - 11:15
S 11:15 - 12:00
E 12:10
A 12:00 - 1:15pm
S 1:15 - 2:00
E 2:10
A 2:00 - 3:15
S 3:15 - 4:00
E 4:10
A 4:00 - 6:30 (do her bath around 6 pm and then feed her again at 6:15 pm)
S by about 7pm give or take depending on how long she talks to herself before falling asleep. 


 

I would love to extend the A time but need to know how I know she's ready or how to do it without her getting OT

I would gently try to extend all A times across your day by 5 mins at first and then another 5 after 3-4 days and see how she responds. Keep going every 3-4 days (take more or less time if you think she needs it) until you have A times around 1.45-2hrs. If she starts to show signs of being OT, then hold back or reduce the A time as she adjusts.
 I know you said on the other post that she doesn't wake to eat at night, so you feel like you have to cram it all in, however, if she isn't taking alot in at each feed, the cycle will only perpetuate itself. Eats little=eats frequently. The fact that she's fighting you when you're trying to feed her is her way of saying she isn't hungry just yet. As she is being stretched out between feeds, she'll be more likely to eat more at one time.


On the other post you also said that she didn't take to a DF when you tried it, however it might be something you can try again once she is going longer btwn feedings. It took my DD about a week to accept DFs, so don't despair!
As you extend her day, her body will start to adjust and she'll sleep longer to make up for the increase in A time. This will eventually get rid of the extra nap as well, b/c you will run out of time in the day.

My biggest fear is her becoming OT and then messing up her night sleep which is good so far besides a couple of EW at 5 am in the last few weeks.

This may happen, but going slowly will help things along. Just as an FYI, sometimes being UT can also cause EWs and/or NWs which may explain why you've had a few EWs.
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=52878.0

Hope some of this helps! Good luck!

[lizzymac99]

Thanks so much for the responses and suggestions!  So today I extended her A time between each nap and we were able to drop a nap as a result, however now today she fought THAT nap!  I just don't know what the deal is with her... the whole day went awesome until then.  She did have a bit of an EW at 5:40 am however she is still only 10.5 pounds at nearly 4 months old and did sleep for 11 hours in a row so I generally treat those like a night waking - change her diaper, rewrap her in her swaddle, and then feed her in the dark and put her back down.  Today looked like this:

awake (EW) @ 5:40
E 5:45
S 6:10
Awake 7:15
E 7:25
A 7:15 - 8:45
S 8:45 - 9:50 (woohoo... longer than 40 minutes!)
E 10:00
A 9:50 - 11:40
S 11:40 - 12:30 (another one longer than 40!)
E this one she started to refuse to eat right away so she ended up not eating much until 1:30 right before sleep
A 12:30 - 1:50
S 1:50 - 2:30 (short nap)
E again refusing to eat right away so ate at 3:30 right before time to sleep
A 2:30 - (should have been 4:00)
S - put her down to nap at 4:00pm and she fought the nap for over an hour - we finally gave up at 5:15 and had to take her for a car ride.  She fell asleep in the car finally at 5:40 and slept until 6:15
Got home at 6:30, bathed her, fed her by 7:00pm,
S - was asleep by 7:25 even though she didn't appear tired at all when I put her down at 7:15pm.

I am so frustrated now, why oh why is this last nap always such a battle - she doesn't give consistent sleepy signs so I go by the clock more so but this time of the day it always backfires and I feel like I have NO idea what I am doing... i don't know if I should wait longer at this nap to put her down or shorter??  I hate that when she fights it which is almost always it puts her very close to bedtime by the time she sleeps.  I also hate seeing her upset and crying for so long... shhh/pat either doesn't work or if it does she wakes up after a few minutes crying again.  PU/PD doesn't work at all for this nap when it does for others.  sigh... It makes me question everything when this happens and feel so lost

[Smurfette]

It's ok! Hang in there! This is only the first day that you're trying something new! You AND her both have to adjust!

So your A times today were an hour and a half?
Tomorrow try a bit longer (an hour and 35-40) as those first 2 naps was definitely UT. But, b/c the first 2 are not restorative enough she then becomes OT at the end and fighting sleep. The third nap seems to be OT already by that point.

she doesn't give consistent sleepy signs so I go by the clock more so

There could be a chance this happens because you're not letting her get to the point where she's actually tired.

But let's give it a few days and see how she adjusts to the increases.

PU/PD won't work b/c she's OT. For PU to work, the routine needs to be in place. She's crying cause she's OT, not b/c she doesn't know how to go to sleep, iykwim.
When you do shh/pat and it doesn't work, most likely it's b/c she is OT by this point and can't relax enough to fall into a deep sleep, so let's work on the morning and see if we can start to get some good naps.
Hang in there, you're on the right path!!

[lizzymac99]

Ok so we just put her down for her second nap at 1 hour 35 of being awake and she crashed right away even though she had shown us NO sleepy signs. The first nap of the day after her initial wake up of the day at 6:45 was at 7:50 (she had yawned once by then) and she only slept 35 mins, what am I doing wrong I wonder?  Should I be ignoring her yawns and keeping her up longer between wake up and the first nap?  She always seems to get tired quickly for that first nap...  Also what should I do then if she is fighting a nap so hard because she is OT instead of PU or shhhh / pat?  We usually try for an hour or so until it starts getting way to close to when she should be waking up before bedtime - then either skip the nap altogether or go for a drive with her to get her to sleep. 

I am getting frustrated with her eating too... I cannot seem to get her to eat a good amount soon after waking, its a fight and then she ends up cramming a bunch in right before she crashes which I suspect isn't helping her sleep either even though we do have the mattress on a slight incline.  She never shows any signs of reflux or anything but i wonder if that's also disrupting her naps along with the fact that she hasn't eaten enough.  Sigh... I just don't know how to fix these issues.  I am going to hang in here and give this new schedule a chance to work though!

[Smurfette]

What was her night time sleep like? Sounds like she was possibly OT already this morning.
Did you try extending that 35 min nap?

[lizzymac99]

She slept from 7:25pm until 6:45 am with no NW, she normally sleeps between 10 and 11 hours at night and STTN.  What confuses me sometimes is that even when she wakes up from a long solid night sleep like that she yawns several times - is this something that babies also do when waking up or does that mean she is starting the day tired?

Her second nap today was also 35 minutes...arghhhhhh!  And no I haven't tried extending naps because I am unsure how to do that when they wake up happy (although also yawning).  I left her both times and watched her on the video monitor to see if she would drift back to sleep, one of the times she looked like she might but didn't.  How do you extend naps when they wake up seemingly happy and if you leave them be they just look around and don't start crying? So far our day looks like this:

Awake 6:45
E 6:55 (But wouldn't eat well and it took most of her A time to get half a feed into her this am)
A 6:45 - 7:50
S 7:50 - 8:25 (settled easily within 5 mins after put down awake)
E 8:45 (still not eating well even though should be hungry after alst feed was so small)
A 8:25 - 10:05
S 10:05 - 10:40 (settled immediately - almost crashed)
E 11:00 (still not eating great and taking forever)
A 10:40 - 11:50
S 11:50 (made a judgement call after seeing her yawn to put her back down earlier especially after 2 of the shortest naps she has ever done)
I am now watching her on the video monitor, she fell asleep within 5 mins with no fussing but is having a very restless sleep now with lots of stirring and eyes opening and closing...hmmmmm... I just don't know...

[Smurfette]

Congrats on the excellent night!!
Generally anything under 10.5 hours of sleep is not ideal and can lead to culmative OT. Does she wake up and yawn on these nights or even when she's slept 11 hours?
There are a couple things you can do to try to extend. Check out the FAQs for how to do Wake to Sleep and /or holding through the jolts. Shh/pat can also be effective but with all things you need to keep doing it for a while (like through out the duration of their nap) AND over a few days for it to start to show it's effectiveness. Babies take awhile to fall into a deep sleep and if you're doing shh/pat, I believe Tracy recommended doing it for at least 20 mins or until you know they are in that deep state.
FYI some LOs respond better to just pressure on them or just the shhhing or a combo...you just need to figure out what works for your LO and be consistent.

Edit-some info here, but I'm pretty sure there is more either in the naps FAQs or the EASY FAQs.
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=85499.0

[lizzymac99]

Should I be shortening A times after short naps?  I did that with her third nap today and put her down after an hour and ten minutes and she slept for about an hour... then her fourth nap was about 45 min when I put her down.  Again we are now at the dreaded last nap of the day - which she has now been fighting for 45 minutes and we are heading out for a carseat ride again... I don't know why this last nap is different than the others all day!  I tried putting her down at 4:15pm after a good wind down and she just seems really hyper at this time of the day for some reason!?  Anyway I got scared about extending the A times I guess because of the sudden 35 min naps twice in a row today because she has never napped that short before.  I tried shhhh / patting her after her fourth nap to extend but she just kept trying to smile at me and giggle the whole time and I gave up. 

I find it hard to work on extending naps because I have to pump while she sleeps and sometimes don't get done by the time she is awake.  I feel so hopeless at the moment, like I have no idea what I am doing or what I should be doing...

[Smurfette]

It's ok, we'll get there.
Can you post what happened today?

Yes, when they have a short nap, you need to cut back on the next A time. Great news about the hour long nap! That's progress, no?

When you get a good nap like that you can then go back to the extended A times as a nap 45 mins is considered an UT (undertired nap).
But once again, she was probably OT from that short 45 min nap and then was fighting it. So you get into that UT/OT loop.

Can I ask why you feel that she isn't eating well? What do you mean that her feeds are so small....ie time wise? Tracy recommend switching to a 4 hour EASY around this age, as they can sustain longer A time as well as time in between feeds.
Are you BFing or bottle?
If she is refusing to eat, is there a reason why you feel like you need get more into her? Usually babies know what they need better than we do. She just might not be hungry.

Is there any chance that you can go without pumping for a few naps to help her with sleeping? That way you can get into her room before she wakes up and start to apply pressure and/or shh/pat just as she starts to wake up in the hopes that she goes back into the next sleep cycle.

As an FYI, my DD didn't do well with the shh/pat as she got older so now we just put our hand on her leg until she settles down again. You just have to experiment to see what they respond to.

The fourth nap would probably be considered the cat nap anyways and not one that needs extending but I guess it depends on where you are in the day. Another option might be to put her to bed early instead of that last nap.

You also asked about how to extend a nap if they wake up happy and not crying....how long do you leave her before you go into her room? Is there a chance that she would go back to sleep if you left her (obviously not if she's crying)?

Let me know what you think.
Hugs! Hang in there!

[lizzymac99]

Ok, so I feel like yesterday (and the first half of today) there was some progress made.  I had a lightbulb moment and figured out that the reason she is grazing all day and not eating well is because of ME!  The reason I am so hung up on what she eats and amounts is because we had a setback when she was 3 weeks old with my milk supply and since I was exclusively bf her at that time I didn't realize that my supply had crashed when I got sick and I was starving her until a weigh in at the doctors revealed that between weeks 2 and 3 she lost weight.  Ever since then I have been struggling with milk supply and on medication to try and keep up to her.  This is why I pump and bottle feed her except for the very first feed of the day when I nurse her.  Anyway I decided yesterday to let go a little and when she decided she was done eating for that awake period that was it and she would go for her next nap with no topping up.  Yesterday she ate way less than normal as a result, BUT today she ate awesome right after waking every time - no more fighting!!

Also I started to really dedicate myself to trying to teach or encourage her to extend her naps.  Now that I have a video monitor on her I watch around the 40 minute mark and when she stirs I don't rush in - once she woke right up but just looked around in her crib like she usually does so I left her be and watch and wouldn't you know it she was yawning and fell back asleep!!  The other times I left her as long as she was happy, and if she started to cry or fuss I went in and worked at it for about half an hour to try and reassure her and coax her back to sleep.  Yesterday was the first day in weeks that she didn't fight her last nap!  First thing today she gave me the "gift" of a 1.5 hour nap without any intervention, in fact all naps today went well (although not all long) until (our fault) we went to the in-laws for the afternoon and she had a bit of a rough time falling asleep for the early afternoon nap and fought the last one completely.  But in hindsight I should have kept things consistent and stayed home for these first few weeks until she learns how to nap better before changing anything on her.  I will keep at this for the week and update any progress or troubleshooting questions over the next few days.  thanks for advice so far tough! 

[Smurfette]

THAT'S AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Doing a happy dance over here for you! Congrats on all the breakthroughs!

How long did you keep her up (A time) to get that 1.5 hour nap? What were the rest of the A times and nap lengths like?

But in hindsight I should have kept things consistent and stayed home for these first few weeks until she learns how to nap better before changing anything on her.

Yep, consistency is the key. Tracy does warn to expect some regression, so if you have a bad day or two and thing seem to go backwards, just know that that is normal and to be expected and don't give up!

Congrats again and yes, please keep my updated.