the hardest thing I have ever had to do

[Buntybear]

I could cry for you Hunxxx I was fortunate enough to be able to BF till 14 months but believe me we did not have an easy time with it. Only in the last couple of weeks have we taken out high fructose foods and nights have settled down a bit.

[EloysH]

Major hugs, I only just saw this 

I was going to say  what did you decide with regards to half and half?  I think that you can do that, if she is better, they why not?

many ((hugs))

[my3girlsjde]

Just wondering how you're doing?

[bjutka1]

Hi, I'm back! We have made it to about 70% neocate and 30% BM. I know you guys won't agree but I still breastfed her through the night. It's so tiring to be putting light on and warming neocate etc. Especially since she wakes very frequently at night. Last night's wakings looked like this: 22:40, 1:15, 2:55, 5:10, 6:30 and 7:30. Surely this is not normal? I always thought that baby insomnia was a sign of food intolerance but with 70% neocate should this not have improved somewhat?

I can see a bit of imrovement on neocate that she is easier to settle to sleep but she is still just as windy and the wind is now really smelly... Her skin is also a bit better though the eczema and cradle cap hasn't cleared completely.

Yesterday afternoon she was really constipated from the neocate and it took me putting a thermometer up her bottom to actully get her to poo. I got so upset at this that I breastfed her in the evening and through the night and I got beautiful textbook breastfed poo in the morning, no mucous at all.

So now I'm back to thinking that I don't wanna give up breastfeeding.

Any ideas?

[anna*]

That number of NWs is what makes me worry that she's reverse cycling at night. I wouldn't expect her to need more than two feeds overnight.

[bjutka1]

The thing is that she has always been like this. Even when she was EBF.

[Jimbob]

The only problem with continuing bf is that you are not going to get clear results. The only way to be sure if your lo is reacting to your milk is to go 100% neocate while expressing ad dumping/freezing. This way if your lo makes huge improvements you may feel better about changing to neocate. If your lo does not show improvements then you can go back to ebf. Obviously this is just my opinion though.

Kelly

[anna*]

Maybe the NWs are habitual at this point? When she was younger obviously discomfort was at play but if you think she is feeling better, at 5 months I think it is reasonable to settle some of those NWs without feeding. YOu both need the sleep.

[EloysH]

The only problem with continuing bf is that you are not going to get clear results. The only way to be sure if your lo is reacting to your milk is to go 100% neocate while expressing ad dumping/freezing.

Yes agree, if that is important for you to "know".  Otherwise if it's not important to ascertain whether your milk truly is the main irritant, then don't worry just continue to do both.  You seem to have conflicting evidence - the skin clearing on one hand  and then the nice BM poos after a night of feeding.  So you won't truly know until you do the trial at 100% formula, hard I know.

As for the night feeding I tend to agree with Anna, the issue would more likely to be an association with feeding rather than a food intolerance symptom. If it was food intolerance related, you would expect her to be in pain when she wakes, and but you would expect that a BF would NOT get her back to sleep, she would be struggling to get back to sleep due to discomfort.

[maggie2]

Okay, so I haven't had time to read through all of the responses, but wanted to chime in as another BTDT!!!

If you're in the mood to read about our story - http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=165003.msg1842089#msg1842089 but the quick version is that I was very heavily pressured to stop breastfeeding.  Like to the point of the doctors telling me that my daughter could have an acute fatal reaction if I put her to the breast even one more time   - and this was after almost exclusively BF'ing her for 9 months already.

What I found was that (especially at big children's hospitals) it is much more convenient and even, I admit, effective (as far as *quickly* figuring out what's going on) to have a mother stop breastfeeding if the child has any sort of GI issue.  They don't have the time to take each and every case on such a personal level - they're trained to get the kid on a baseline of foods that are not reacted to and the best way to do that is on an exclusive diet of elemental formula like neocate.

In our case, I was presenting such problems for the poor doctors that one finally broke down and told me that even one sip could kill her  Oh it was so stupid.  But of course it terrified me - I was so torn.  I wanted to figure out what was going on, but she would not accept the formula (we are a good example the fact that an older child will not accept the formula - she ended up on an ng tube and the whole thing was a complete disaster).

Anyway, I obviously have some baggage with this, so keep that in mind.  But if it were me, I would continue to try and get some formula in her to get her used to the taste, but not completely let my milk dry up.  Also keep in mind that if you think you might want to go back to BF'ing, they can forget how to latch pretty quickly.  It took only 2 weeks for me and I was heartbroken (although with a lot of hard work and pressure to get her back on the breast because she couldn't tolerate the formula via tube, we got to a point where she re-learned it)

But I honestly think you're doing the right thing - I don't think there's anything wrong with taking it slow though.  Docs don't always understand the BF'ing thing.  Take is slow and know that you're doing good:)

[suzymoreland]

Question: Are any of you with these "allergy" problems going 8+ hours at night without nursing? I ask because I read an old doctor's advice about never feeding a baby at night because her digestive system needs time to rest and heal, and cannot do that if it is constantly digesting!

I was nursing what seemed all night long and we've had diarrhea for over 2 weeks! I'm making it 7 hours currently (trying to extend it each night) and have seen this progress: reduced poo down to 2-3 a day from 8-10, less smelly, and less gassy, very few spitups if any - but still dark green and thin poo, and cannot nap more than 30 or 45 minutes (unless I'm wearing her in a sling). I know she's still tired, but her legs jump around and the swaddle only contains her arms (when she doesn't pull them out). She puts herself to sleep so I know it's not our ritual. I was about to give up and just call the doctor again (I know what we'll go through - more I don't know's and let's strip down your diet even more and add medications or supplements). But I just read that even with eliminating a milk allergy, it can take 2 weeks to heal. So, now I'm thinking I'm on track. I also jumped to a 4-hour feed during the day, which is hard when baby won't sleep, but she seemed to be okay with that feed. Only I was a bit engorged which makes it harder for her to get all the way to the fatty milk, (which she needs to keep from irritating her gut from "lactose overload"?), so I pumped off the top a few times to relieve that and it also seemed to help. But I may go back to a 3 or 3.5 hour schedule, I'll see how today goes. I hope I haven't diminished my supply too much.

One other thing, this "old doctor" also said, "An angry mother's milk has been known to kill the nursing infant." I've struggled with frustrations over my 5yo and his new-found lack of discipline and attention, my needy husband and our business I've also neglected, and my resentment towards a midwife at my 2-week checkup who strongly suggested that I change my 3-hour day and 5-hour night-feeding perfectly healthy baby, to a 2-hour day and 3-hour night because she may not be gaining as much weight as she should. I so wish I had not listened to her - it all seems to have started here. Gassy, reflux, no longer sleeping well, nursing all night long, a nonsensical daytime routine, and totally scatter-brained and sleep-deprived mother! I've been so mad about this! I'm trying really hard now to relax before I start feeding and think happy thoughts. My husband and son have gone to grandparents for the weekend, so I have some quiet time for a few days! Just trying to get this figured out soon!

I hope you haven't had to give up breastfeeding yet. Yes, it doesn't seem right that the best thing for a child can somehow harm them? I just keep wondering if the old doctor is right? Are we just OVER-feeding them? Are the little "seedy" specks really just undigested milk curds, and not necessarily a sign of a healthy poo? I saw a mom comment on here somewhere that her baby's poo is green after she's been a little engorged (like in the morning). Makes sense then that by not getting to the fatty stuff at the end would irritate. Here's an awesome link to a better explanation of foremilk/hindmilk - http://thefunnyshapedwoman.blogspot.com/2011/05/foremilk-and-hindmilk-in-quest-of.html

So, do you think I'm on the right track, and do you think it may help your situation to cease the night feeds? We had a difficult night or two so far, but it's been worth it!

[suzymoreland]

I really jumped around with that post, sorry! I believe the diarrhea trouble began when we started falling asleep during the night feeds, not finishing, waking up an hour later and trying to finish. This is what I mean about all night long. Our days were already difficult with the naps, but the night had been fine with only one or two feeds, until we started falling asleep during them. So, I think that she was already being "over-fed", and then we created a 'lactose overload" situation that really irritated a fragile digestive tract, so now anything I eat will cause problems unless I can get her system to heal itself. My analysis. And I don't think that feeding her more or changing to formula solves it. It may make the diarrhea stop, but sets her up for a different set of possibly lifelong problems. Do I sound crazy? Okay, maybe so, but I just want to know if anyone experiencing these problems was actually going all night without feeding. If so, I'll give up on this theory and go along with the doctors' guessing game. I just feel that this is the golden clue. (whatever that means? can you tell I'm sleep-deprived?! LOL!)

[maggie2]

I really jumped around with that post, sorry! I believe the diarrhea trouble began when we started falling asleep during the night feeds, not finishing, waking up an hour later and trying to finish. This is what I mean about all night long. Our days were already difficult with the naps, but the night had been fine with only one or two feeds, until we started falling asleep during them. So, I think that she was already being "over-fed", and then we created a 'lactose overload" situation that really irritated a fragile digestive tract, so now anything I eat will cause problems unless I can get her system to heal itself. My analysis. And I don't think that feeding her more or changing to formula solves it. It may make the diarrhea stop, but sets her up for a different set of possibly lifelong problems. Do I sound crazy? Okay, maybe so, but I just want to know if anyone experiencing these problems was actually going all night without feeding. If so, I'll give up on this theory and go along with the doctors' guessing game. I just feel that this is the golden clue. (whatever that means? can you tell I'm sleep-deprived?! LOL!)

Hi Suzymoreland:)

Well, our case is a little different only because dd has a specific form of food intolerance (FPIES) - not so much irritability and diarrhea, just very severe GI episodes only when she eats certain foods - she's older now as well - 2.  So we're not BF'ing as much, but still do - even once or twice at night still, so your theory may have some merit;)  lol - but from what you describe, I wonder if your own experience with your lo may have been more of a foremilk/hindmilk thing as you hinted to.  The thing that popped out at me was you mentioning her feeding a little bit, falling asleep, then feeding a little more later on.  So she'd get lots of foremilk that way and not as much hindmilk - I'm pretty sure that can cause a looser stool in some kids and even the gas and discomfort you were talking about.  

anyway - it can be such a puzzle to figure out what's going on, can't it!?!?

[suzymoreland]

Thank you. I hope it's as simple as the foremilk/hindmilk thing too, and I just need to be patient to let it work itself out now that I've decreased my supply some. Best case scenario, we come out of this with a happy, tummy-trouble-free baby that goes all night without feeds! Right?! I'm willing to put in the work for that! Hoping for 8 hours tonight!

[bjutka1]

Hi guys, just back to let you know how things are going.

Unfortunately (or not) she IS doing better on the formula. Sleeping better, less windy and generally happier. The truth is that every time I started to feed her more frequently myself (because I just couldn't let go and kept thinking she would be fine on BM) she got worse. So yesterday we invited friends round for a bbq and I had some too. This was the only way to ensure I wouldn't feed her again. It still breaks my heart but I have to do what's better for her, right?

So it's gonna be neocate for a couple of weeks then weaning. (No doubt I will be back again then!)

Thanks for all your help and encouragement - it meant a lot! Wish I could have gone on longer but we only lasted 5 months and 1 week. Still doubled the time I breastfed her from when they originally wanted me to put her on neocate...