Author Topic: 5 mo bad napper had a routine now lost ???  (Read 22075 times)

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Offline annette.xx

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Re: 5 mo bad napper had a routine now lost ???
« Reply #150 on: July 26, 2011, 14:04:55 pm »
Hey there

sorry about your nightmare day!!!

that second nap wont lengthen until the catnap is gone and no OT - I think all the accumulated OT is just making him more and more OT!! so in my mad world what I would do now is to shorten the A time (before second nap) to just 2 hrs - I know you think im barking mad but I would just see if it gets you a decent nap - you never know! AP it if you have to just get him to take it! then if that is just 30 mins in length then you will have 2 options - 1 is super earle bedtime after 4-4.5 hrs last A time to make days A time total 9/9.5hrs or you can do 3hrs A time and then catnap of no more than 30 mins then 2hrs A time to bed ....the catnap way will make him a little OT cos he will have had more than 9.5A time but should be better cos OT wont have had chance to accumulate after the short second A time...

your night should have been alot better last night cos that last 45 min nap should have caught up some of the OT... How did the rest go?

I am finding that the first 2 A times cannot total more than 5 hrs for me or I get OT naps!!...

you are on the right track and dont panic about the short second A time it will be your saving grace as it will really help battle the OT and stop the day becoming too long...once you get the OT caught up and drop the catnap you will find he easily does at least 2.5hrs for second A time - it just takes time!! once he hits 8/9 months thats the time when babies are actually properly ready to do 3x3hr A times - then you will soon find hes becoming UT again and you will start cutting a nap (yes really!!)...its never ending!

Annette.xx

Offline *Kara*

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Re: 5 mo bad napper had a routine now lost ???
« Reply #151 on: July 26, 2011, 17:48:50 pm »
It really all depends on the LO.  When my DD was your DS's age, she could do the 3 -3 -3 easily.

Hugs to you Annette, but I would actually push his A times a bit... I think that second nap was UT, not OT.  I agree completely though that this will not get better until you force the dropping of the CN, he is too old for it.  I got DD through it by just suffering a couple a weeks and just pushing her to 3 hours for each A time, the naps came around fairly quickly with that approach ;)



Offline sherry lynn

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Re: 5 mo bad napper had a routine now lost ???
« Reply #152 on: July 26, 2011, 18:56:13 pm »
I agree with Kara. And I think the fact that it took longer to go down for the catnap shows that. I find that with my Little ones that the A time before a nap effects the next A time, as much as the nap length its self does.

Having said I think that is why Annette's routine is working for her LO. Because the A time at the end of the day is Soooo long, the little one will go down earlier for that first morning A time. However, you've already tried significantly decreasing the A time. If I rememeber correctly you tried 2 hours, etc not that long ago and you DID not get a nice long nap. I think all this is really happening because you just have to get through dropping the catnap. I drug drug drug it out with Lyle and we went through the hell that you are going through until he was 9 months old. I'm not joking :(  With Emory he would flat out refuse it most of the time. So I just had to push push push through it and we got through it with a lot less pain then I did with Lyle. It's hard though. You have to talk yourself through it and just now that you will have a rough fee weeks, but heh, you already are having a rough time. Also, I think that EW this morning was from the catnap. So if that keeps happening then dropping it will get that much harder. EW are what made it so hard with Lyle. But, I learned my lesson to take action QUICKLY when EW start happening. If you let them go too long they become the norm.
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Offline annette.xx

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Re: 5 mo bad napper had a routine now lost ???
« Reply #153 on: July 26, 2011, 21:51:15 pm »
Hey there

im soooo sorry you are still having a hard time of it...

just wanted to explain as im sure after reading this thread you will be sooo confused as what to do with the routine - conflicting advice from myself and the others...kara and sherry lynn both talk great sense so you just need to choose a direction - im thinking with your other LO you may find the timings easier if you go with the extending out the second A time...

neither of us is wrong - just 2 different methods - I know where kara is coming from with pushing to over 3 hrs for second A time - this will get you a good really really tired long nap once you get the timing right - basically the body is sooo tired that it will slightly wake at the 30 min mark but go back to sleep as too tired to fully wake up and cry - IYKWIM?!...

My way with the 2hr second A time will get you a just getting tired second nap (which once the timing is correct should get you a long nap)

the problem is that with the 2hr 30/45 A time you are stuck in the middle which is a rubbish nap zone cos after the 2hr 15 mark he is getting OT but then wakes at the 30 min mark from this OT but not willing to sleep more as not tired enough to accept it - he is all jolty but without enough build up of tiredness so he will fight you and not go back down - my way with the super short second A time (after the long first) will get you a peacefull nap without the joltiness so should be a long one...but will then leave you with a longer A till bed...

what im saying is you either go bang on tiredness which is hard to nail or you go past the tiredness into an OT really tired zone that will carry him through a long nap - if youve ever searched the internet you will find there are loads of mummys that do just one nap from as little as 3 months (!!!!) with scary 4 hr A times and it works cos they are in that really tired zone and they just zonk out! A bit like why another popular sleep routine works so well cos they allow just 30 -45 mins am nap then 2 1/2hrs afterwards then long nap then really long nearly 5 hrs to bed!!!...and this works for thousands so there really is no right or wrong way - just got to get the tiredness timing right!!

so you just need to choose which way you wanna go with it - either way will work you just need to get out of that middle zone ...

am I totally confusing you all yet!!!

seriously I confuse myself!! ...but somehow it all makes perfect sense!!!! :o

Annette.xx

Offline *Kara*

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Re: 5 mo bad napper had a routine now lost ???
« Reply #154 on: July 27, 2011, 04:56:50 am »
I know where kara is coming from with pushing to over 3 hrs for second A time - this will get you a good really really tired long nap once you get the timing right - basically the body is sooo tired that it will slightly wake at the 30 min mark but go back to sleep as too tired to fully wake up and cry - IYKWIM?!...

Not true.  My DD sleeps much more soundly if she has a longer A time, always has.  I can get her to sleep sooner, but she will be extremely restless cause she isn't all that tired.

Baby sleep is not an exact science (that would just be too easy!)  you need to find out what works for your LO and their needs.  I have tried the 2-3-4 and it didn't work at all for my DD.  A 2 hour morning A doesn't get me enough of a nap to not end her day at 5pm ;)



Offline sherry lynn

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Re: 5 mo bad napper had a routine now lost ???
« Reply #155 on: July 27, 2011, 09:57:15 am »
The other risk you take with 2 hours A time first thing in the morning is EW.

Annette - I was about ready to bring up that other popular routine. It seems as if R might be one of those kids that that routine works for. There are kids who honestly prefer that routine and that don't settle on anything until they have something close to that. The reason that routine works for many Little ones is a) they are only taking one good nap a day, which some little ones only want to take. No matter how much tweaking you try, they just only take on good nap (or none, if the A times aren't right. b) that super long A time. Both of my boys have likes having 4+ hours of A time at the end of the day.

One of the good points from both girls is you just have to try something and go for it.

What we all agree on is that catnap needs to go. :)
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Offline Zoerippingale

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Re: 5 mo bad napper had a routine now lost ???
« Reply #156 on: July 27, 2011, 11:06:59 am »
Can you guys help me please? My LO will be 21weeks on fri, he was a good napper going for at least 1-1.5 hours until recently when his naps have dropped to 30-45 mins. I was bf every 4 hours but someone on here suggestedthst might be the problem so I started feeding every 3.5 hours and this had made it worse as he now has more naps! He usually has 1.5hr awake time do I need to extend this? I am really struggling and getting frustrated so hard when he used to nap so well! Please help! X

Offline annette.xx

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Re: 5 mo bad napper had a routine now lost ???
« Reply #157 on: July 27, 2011, 13:24:36 pm »
Hi Zoe

yeah I would defo work on extending that A time - he should be ready for a good 4 hr routine now and once you get to the magic 2 hrs A time you should find those naps lengthen again...

so you are on 1.5 hrs A time at the moment - have you tried pushing to 1hr 45 at all yet?...

I really think it would help you loads if you could get a seperate thread going to get loads of eyes and im sure the other great ladies on this thread will have a peek and help you out...priya has some great eyes on this thread so youve definately come to the right place!

Annette.xx

Offline shresmummy

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Re: 5 mo bad napper had a routine now lost ???
« Reply #158 on: July 27, 2011, 13:32:41 pm »
Hi girls,I am sorry I couldn't reply sooner. You all have put in SO much effort into helping me I just want to say thank you so very much for taking all the trouble. I appreciate it so much.

Now,let me tell you how last night was. The early part was good and he basically slept from 7-11 without much problem.but he wanted o play about from 1--2:30 again! Seriously!!the cn was the culprit no doubt and probably the 2 hr before bt. But the upside was he only woke at 7:15 this morning after a feed at 4:30am!

So I decided to drop the cn today come hell or high water! I have carefully looked at all that everyone has said. As much as I would love a 2 hr A time for the am nap I think R is just not one of those kids Annette, unfortunately.

So I think the 2-3-4 is not going to work with him. Lately the only success I have been having is 3 hr before the am nap. The most this has given me is a 1h20 min nap. With 2.75 h I get a 1 hr nap. So I think I have to aim for 3 hr before the am nap for sure.

The next A time as you know is my worst. I must say, as you pointed out sherry the fact that he took looonger to go down for yesterday's cn after the short 2 nd A time shows he may need more to take a good pm nap. So I think pushing out to 3 hrs here is also probably the only approach to try.

But then what happens with the last A time is anyone's guess, depending on how the pm nap goes.

So today this is what happened:

Wake 7:20
Nap 10:05-11:05 (I was so aiming for 3 hrs but he fell asleep in the kitchen while I was holding him and cooking!) what do you do then!?

Nap 1:45-2:15 (he was SO cranky, and I though I should do 2.75 hrA time. But he woke at 30 mins and wouldn't resettle. Ot or ut? You ladies will have to tell me.i don't know anymore,

Buti didn't do a cn today because of the later wu time I hoped I could get away with a 5:45 bt after 3.5 hr on a 30 min nap! Yikes!

He coped surprisingly ok. I carried him around a fair bit. He went to bed at 5:50 without a peep, and we have had nws at ,7:20, 8:20 where he was on/off till 9 then 9:50 where he fed. Then he has been asleep it's now nearly 11. All the effects of ot before bed right?

So now tomorrow I am going to try 3-3-?. I guess my questions are
1) If he has a short am nap after 3 hr A time do I push for 3 hr again before pm nap?
2) if he then has another short pm nap do I do 3 hr again before bed?
3) if he has a long am nap, then 3 hr A time but a 30 min pm where he doesn't resettle do I repeat what I did today with 3.5 hr before bed after a short nap?

4) if he wakes at 6 or earlier what should I do?

Something has to work at some point right?i hope there is a light at the end of this tunnel! Sherry you're right it may get rough but it's not like it's easy now!

Oh and ZoeRippingale, I'm sorry to hear you're having a hard time. As you can tell I'm in a fine mess myself so probably not the right person to advice you. Sherry, annette and Kara might be better to ask. But I just had a thought. sometimes you don't always need to feed straight after a nap. It's ok to have some A time before E if your naps are short then you can feed him then do S as long as you are not feeding to sleep. Also if you post your routine on the EASY boards you may be able to get some more help?

 Sherry, which routine did you mean might be what R wants? Is it the one with 5 hr A time before bed that Annette was talking about?

He





Offline annette.xx

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Re: 5 mo bad napper had a routine now lost ???
« Reply #159 on: July 27, 2011, 13:43:05 pm »
oh dear im soooo sorry - I feel like I may have offended you Kara - So not my intention - I think you are ace and give such great advice so please forgive me! :-*- I meant that quote in the best way possible just explaining how a sleep expert had explained why babies need longer awake times to get a longer nap - he said that all babies will rouse and wake slightly during a nap in first cycle and that if they arent tired enough they will wake fully and also the opposite if they are UT they will nap better cos their body is so relaxed so they will still wake slightly but will be sooo chilled they will go back to slumber again (I suppose like the feeling you get when super chilled from a massage you dont need the sleep but you will happily nod cos you are so relaxed)...

just wanted to explain myself! I know what you are saying works and that the longer A time will also work really well cos I did that same thing with DD but DS is just sooo different and using this different approach has really helped with him! Can you beleive it that I got all the way upto 2hrs 30 A time for all As ready for 2hrs 45 then stepped back and cut back to 2hrs for first A - yes I am mad me thinks!!!...if I didnt find the catnap dropping soooo hard I would have stuck it out and gone with the longer A at the start of day cos that last 4 hour A time although it works a treat he is a grumpy boy for the last hour and that drives me nuts!!!!

anyway just sending hugs your way Kara :-*

yeah sherry I think the long A time at end of day does seem to suit alot of babies like that other routine has - I actually did that routine with DD for first few months and it didnt work for me cos she was so OT with it but then did BW and 3,3,3 was my routine at 6 months then strangely by 9 months I was doing almost the same routine as the original one with very similar timings when the 2;1 started and it worked a treat - just goes to shoe how time changes everything!

hows it going Priya?

Annette.xx


Offline annette.xx

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Re: 5 mo bad napper had a routine now lost ???
« Reply #160 on: July 27, 2011, 13:53:23 pm »
sorry Priya - I was posting at the same time as you!!

that second nap was a UT nap - it was OT in the respect that he was very tired from short am nap so jolted awake but UT in the fact that he hadnt accumulated enough tiredness to get a long nap which would have made him want to carry on sleeping for a much longer nap!...

yeah I reckon tomorrow do a 3,3,3 routine - the way I would do it is just go for the 3hrs regardless of last nap length for all A times this way by the end of day even if second nap was only 30 mins you still have had only 9 hrs in the day of A time so he shoud sleep much better at night...

I have a sneaking suspicion that your DS may be jumping A times again though so as soon as you get to the 3,3,3 that he may start needing more A time so you will probably need to then cap a nap anyway!!

I am finding that my DS needs at least 9.25 hrs A time at the minute to get a decent wake time! the 9 hrs is making him slightly UT and im getting a 30 - 60 min earlier wake up...so im having to up the first A time now anyway!! ...i had same problem as you though he started falling asleep on me during windown so only made 2 hrs this morning - I did 2hrs 15 yesterday no problem but today was another story!! those annoying teeth me thinks!

Annette.xx

Offline shresmummy

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Re: 5 mo bad napper had a routine now lost ???
« Reply #161 on: July 27, 2011, 14:22:47 pm »
What is the deal with my kid? It is 11:10 pm here and after his 9:45 feed he slept for 1h10 mins and woke up agooing!! Huh? Is he delirious from the ot? Or is it another of my A time related fiascos?

Annette I suspect you might be right with him jumping A times fairly soon.

So if I do 3-3-3 there is a chance I could get 2 30min naps the entire day....heaven help me tomorrow night if that happens.





Offline sherry lynn

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Re: 5 mo bad napper had a routine now lost ???
« Reply #162 on: July 27, 2011, 14:26:27 pm »
If you think that is the case, then go for Annette's plan. Only you know your child.
I would say that not going back to sleep after the feed is again because of the catnap. OR, reflux issues.
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Offline shresmummy

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Re: 5 mo bad napper had a routine now lost ???
« Reply #163 on: July 27, 2011, 14:33:39 pm »
Funny thing is he slept well for 1 hour then woke and wanted to play. He didn't ave the cn though today sherry.

I am hoping we get a decent wu time tomorrow so I can try out the 3-3-3





Offline NikNik

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Re: 5 mo bad napper had a routine now lost ???
« Reply #164 on: July 27, 2011, 23:57:43 pm »
Hi shresmummy- thought I would throw my 2 cents into the debate. I am by no means an expert, so take it or leave it. I would agree with annette.xx. I found that E was so overtired that I needed to put her down quite early to break that cycle. It wasn't forever- just until she was out of the OT cycle. So for a few days, I was putting her down for her morning nap after as little as 1.5-2 hours IF she was showing tired signs. After a few days it naturally lengthened as she caught up on sleep and wasn't OT anymore. So for those first few days I really just watched her for tired signs and tried to ignore the clock. Just to note, she wasn't always happy and willing to go down so early, esp the first couple times, but it was generally much easier to get her to sleep if I caught it early rather than late. The other thing I learned is that even when she was vocally protesting a nap, if I watched her body language, she was clearly ready for sleep and this encouraged me to keep going through the crying. For example, she was crying but she was also keeping her head on the bed instead of trying to rock on her hands and knees. Or if she was lifting her head up, but it kept dropping onto the bed. Or she would burrow her head and rub her eyes. All of these things told me she really was tired and just wasn't able to get to sleep.

I told you in another post that I went to the family care center 'sleep school' near me and our sleep turned around a lot after that. In addition to the above, which they helped me recognize and it worked for my LO, they also advised me not to feed E before midnight. They told me (and I know this is going against BW technique) that the best sleep that babies get during the night is the first long sleep- so the first stretch after BT. SO when I introduced the DF, I was interrupting this sleep. In addition, the first stretch is generally the longest so if your LO is waking after 4 hours, the next stretch will usually be shorter than that, if that makes sense, so you get more NW. Eventually E started waking up BEFORE the DF and then I was in the routine of her waking up for feeds at 10, 2, and 6 on a good night. So I stopped feeding her at the 10pm wake up and just resettled her instead. It took about 3 nights of a lot of crying but after the 3rd night she actually slept through. She doesn't consistently STTN but usually she will sleep until at least 5. So after 6 months of 2+ NW I am very happy with that. I know naps are your major issue and I am not sure how your nights go, but I put this in because I think this contributed to us breaking her OT cycle, so it may be worth a try if you are feeding you LO before midnight. Our sleep has gotten so much better so I wanted to pass along what worked for us. We are now on 2 1.5-2 hour naps a day and if she doesn't get a good nap one day or we are out at nap time, I know that I can catch her up later in the day without too much drama.
I just reread my post and I feel like I haven't made any of it very clear so let me know if you want any further detail on any of it. Good luck!! I know how frustrating it can be!