Anyone got experience of long am/short pm? And anyone go cold turkey to one nap?

[AliG]

Hellllloooo,

In the horrible transition phase, where your day has to be mega long to be able to manage two naps. Currently doing long am, as I like knowing there's been one decent sleep in the day. But, with increasing A times, and needing a decent A before bed (hardest one to work out) the pm CN is getting harder. My LO (9 months) goes down for it fine but I have to cut it in order for there to be a decent A before bed.

He did 3hrs 45 A yesterday am after a good night and did a 2hr sleep.

I'm not suggesting dropping to one nap just yet, but would be interested to hear anyone's experiences. i.e. how much A time is enough so you could consider it and then just deal with a potential few weeks of OT - 4.5hrs?

It's just so hard to get right at the moment...

Doesn't help that teeth are causing major upset too

[*Amy*]

Following along!
I am doing short am long pm but just so in coincides with ds nap.
I think dd would prefer a long am nap but then it makes her A time to bed too long!

[skatty]

This is what I did with dd  I did try the shortening the first nap but all it meant was 2 really cr@p naps and I did that for months, literally at your LO's age until just before 12 months when because of a docs app she went down late and had the best nap she had in months! It was so much easier to get a decentish nap out of her and then I would take her for a walk in the pushchair late afternoon and let her sleep just 20 mins which was long enough to get her fed, bath and bed afterwards. The difference was she didn't take anywhere near 2hrs, only 1hr-1hr15 so I would guess you would have to try the catnap later. All in all I think this is a great way to transition to 1 nap because as the A time increases the nap will naturally get nearer to lunchtime and you will end up not needing the catnap  If it is hard to get a catnap but LO is getting OT you could cut the main nap down a bit just so they will be tired enough for a CN right now.

AS for A time, when I first did this she did a 4hr A time which eventually increases to 4½ hrs when on one nap but she was a great night sleeper so would do over 14 hrs, I think as average a babe has to be able to do 5-5½ hrs on a one nap day 

[~Sara~]

Yup, we did long AM/short PM here, too, until we finally dropped to one nap at 13 months.  In order to fit everything in, I capped the long nap to 1.5h max and the short nap got capped at 1h, then 45 minutes, then 30 minutes, then finally 20 minutes when I just bit the bullet bc that was a miserable nap length for all involved.  His A times were ~5h, though.

I think as average a babe has to be able to do 5-5½ hrs on a one nap day

I completely agree.  Sometimes a LO will be able to get by doing a one nap day then a two nap day if their A times are shorter than this but just absolutely NEED to go to 1 nap.

Out of curiosity, how long is the PM nap?

[okinawamama]

I also did long am, short pm. I did the a.m nap after 4-4.5 hrs A time and he rarely ever slept longer than 1.5 and then went for a 30 min run with the stroller to APOP the CN and then BT was 3 hours after he woke. I didn't do the gradual cutting of the CN, once 30min was too long, we went cold turkey with one nap and an early bedtime.

[~Karen~]

I did long am/short pm nap with ds2 as I sort of had because of school runs.  With ds1 I did short am/long pm and found that we managed to stay on two naps until 18 months that way. 

I found with the long am nap that he started refusing the pm nap much earlier than he was ready for one nap days! 

[RothE]

Hi! My DD sounds like yours in that we need to have a decent last A time...even after a catnap or she will not go to bed.

We are doing long am/short pm but have had a few one nap days recently when DD's first A got pushed out to 4.5/5 hours.  On one nap days, her days were

W: 6:30
S: 11-1
S: 7

DD is low sleep needs though and can handle OT. If her nap is shorter (lets say til 12:30) I'd AP a 15/20 minute nap at around 4:30 and do a 7:30/7:45 bedtime with her.

Eventually I'll slowly push that first A out but she is sleepy in the morning and awake late day so this works for us now.

9 months is probably young to go to one nap...but i know at 9 months my DD was doing 2/2.5 hours day sleep max.

[aidenmc]

Following along as I'm dealing with this as well. On a long 1.5hr am nap which is easy to get, ds will fight the pm nap and I never know what kind of A time to give him. Have decided to cap the am nap and try for a longer pm nap, but we almost got no nap today. Doesn't help that we also have NWs, EWs, teething and are still working on independent sleep. 

[AliG]

Hi all,
Thanks for the responses...
Skatty, that was my exact thinking. am nap just gets pushed later as A time increases, and so CN disappears, just as it did previously (the third CN).

Sara, currently I'm capping total daytime sleep at 2.5hrs max, so how long the am sleep is determines how long I give for the pm. So, if I get 2hrs am, I'll only give 25-30mins pm. But even that is hard with ever increasing A times. I usually have to try and put him down early for that nap and not the full A time he can do.
When you were dropping your CN down and down, what did total daytime sleep end up as as you were cutting it? e.g. by time it was only 20mins, what was total DT sleep?

Stephanie, sounds good, but I think I need 3hrs+ before bed. Then again, I don't keep a proper log. But when he was younger and dropped the CN, BT was sometimes 4hrs later and he did it no problem, even though he wasn't able to do 4hrs before a nap. So I do think he is able to handle OT pretty well.

I'm also wondering if he's due an A time increase. Yesterday am, we had a 5am wake up for some very unknown reason (teeth I think) but I didn't want to put him down too early for am nap, so I pushed him to 9am (he looked terrible) but he slept for 2hrs. Today, I did 3.5-3.75 A (not sure exact time he woke) and he did 1hr 25mins. So I'm wondering whether to get a decent 2hr sleep, he needs to be pushed...

Also, (sorry for so many qus!), when we talk about an LO being able to 'handle' A time, how do we measure that?? i.e. if they don't get grisly (he never has done), if they do a decent nap, not an OT one? is the idea that if you pushed A time and got an OT nap, then LO wasn't able to 'handle' it?

[~Sara~]

When you were dropping your CN down and down, what did total daytime sleep end up as as you were cutting it? e.g. by time it was only 20mins, what was total DT sleep?

Until he was on 1 nap, I always capped his AM nap to 1.5h.  Always.  I was having to wake him up from it, so I had a hunch he would sleep longer if I let him.  But in order to fit in the A time he needed and the 2 naps he needed, I had to cap that first nap.  His overall day got to be between 13-13.5h long at the very end, with about 1h50-2h of daytime sleep.  When he did drop to 1 nap at 13mo, he jumped to doing a 3h nap and 10.5-11h nights.

It sounds like your LO's A times are still a bit on the short side to go to 1 nap just yet.  I'd keep doing what you're doing, but if you find that his day gets too long with his 2h nap, I'd consider capping the AM to 1.5h until you're through the transition.  There are other things to try, too (like alternating 2 nap and 1 nap days).  But I think you've got a bit before that

Also, (sorry for so many qus!), when we talk about an LO being able to 'handle' A time, how do we measure that?? i.e. if they don't get grisly (he never has done), if they do a decent nap, not an OT one? is the idea that if you pushed A time and got an OT nap, then LO wasn't able to 'handle' it?

Basically, I say it to mean whatever A time LO can do based upon the amount/quality of sleep they had for the previous nap.  I normally judge by how a nap or BT/night sleep goes to determine if an A time was too much, too little, or just about right.

[AliG]

Night sleep is very hard to use as a guide though isn't it, as you never know if there are other things involved... know what I mean? We did cut DT sleep down from 2hrs 45 recently though, as we were getting 1-1.5hr NWs. But then yesterday after only a 9hr night sleep (argh) we let him have 3hrs day sleep, as wanted to push to a normal BT, which meant a 14-14.5hr day. (I know, not good to make a habit of). But we did get a good nights sleep with no NWs and 11hrs.

So, it's ok if a day becomes 13.5hrs? I worry about that, but I guess it's something that has to happen during the transition? And same goes for day sleep, is it ok for it to reduce?? (you said you were getting about 2hrs max just before the move to one nap). How do I know when to cut it?

Also, how many hours was your LO doing at night when he was doing 2hrs day sleep?

It's mad isn't it, how they can suddenly change - how you said he suddenly did 3hrs day sleep when on one nap.

[~Sara~]

So, it's ok if a day becomes 13.5hrs? I worry about that, but I guess it's something that has to happen during the transition?

I would go by your LO to determine that, his sleep needs, his temperment.  My DS has hardly ever done a 12h night.  He's more an 11h night kid, so that left us with a 13h day naturally.  He's also never been a good candidate for an early bedtime bc he will sleep max 10.5-11h at night period and then be up.  So, for us, it worked out better to just let the days go between 13-13.5h to fit everything in.  This isn't the case for all LOs, so I will defer to you here and rely upon your expertise   How long are his nights normally?  That will determine a lot about how you handle the 2-1.

And same goes for day sleep, is it ok for it to reduce?? (you said you were getting about 2hrs max just before the move to one nap). How do I know when to cut it?

The 2-1 transition is tricky.  It just is...the nature of the beast   I think it's OK to reduce the 1 nap over time and the following A time (in your case the PM nap and last A time before bed) because you're still keeping everything in check, iyswim.  In theory, right?   You're trying to stay ahead of the OT.

I would let your DS guide you through this.  Watch his cues, observe his behavior.  Pay attention to patterns that creep up because that's when you know something needs to change (an off day now and then doesn't normally mean anything).  I think you will know when to tweak when you can tell his current A time length isn't enough (leading to an UT nap) or when night sleep is affected if he's getting too much sleep in the day.  I firmly believe that a LO cannot handle just one nap a day until they're able to stay awake for close to 5h on each side of the nap.  Otherwise, the OT would just build up waaaaay too much.  So, this is why I and others suggest just the gradual reduction of the short nap, going along with DS' cues

Also, how many hours was your LO doing at night when he was doing 2hrs day sleep?

He was still doing 10.5h nights...maybe an occasional 10h night.

It's mad isn't it, how they can suddenly change - how you said he suddenly did 3hrs day sleep when on one nap.

I was quite surprised that he started napping for as long as he did, yes.  Especially since he'd been a short napper for a few months, then a consistent 1.5h napper.  Even now, he's doing 2-2.5h naps with a 10.5-11h night.  Life was so much easier after the 2-1.  But, it's just how babies' sleep patterns change overall: they start consolidating sleep.  Completely natural and normal

HTH!  I hope this isn't making you stressed as you're still in the early stages of the 2-1...LO probably has a few more months to go until he's OK doing 1 nap.

[AliG]

Hi Sara,

He has never really done 12hr nights. He maybe had a short period where he did but otherwise he was always around 11hrs. Sometimes 11.25, sometimes 11.5.

But recently, it's more like 10.5-11.25 max. And again, sometimes 10.25. Sometimes even 10 but I think that's on days when other things are going on, or a bad night but yet his body clock still wakes him at the same time.

So how do you think that will affect how I handle the 2-1?

Am going to start capping the am nap to 1.5hrs, especially as his A time is creeping up to 4hrs, so it gets even harder to fit the two naps in. Especially as he seems to need a long stint before bed. Well, he certainly did when he was on more day sleep, if you see what I mean.

Here's a question - when an LO has a bad night, be it multiple wakings because of teeth, or a long NW of 1hr +, meaning total night time sleep is 10hrs or less (we had 9 the other night?!), do you increase the day sleep the next day to compensate for how much they lost? Or is the theory that doing their normal naps will allow them to catch up?

We had to stretch the day to 14hrs yesterday as he'd woken at 5am after 9.5hrs and couldn't get back to sleep (you could tell he wanted to, not that he was ready to get up and start the day). So I stretched to 9am for a nap (good idea?) and he did 2.25hrs. Then I gave him another 45mins 3.5hrs later. And then he had 3.5hrs before bed. But we had an 1hr+ NW last night, so I'm thinking it wasn't the best idea to increase day sleep. It worked the other day though when he did a similar short night (9.5hrs). Hmmm...

[~Sara~]

do you increase the day sleep the next day to compensate for how much they lost? Or is the theory that doing their normal naps will allow them to catch up?

I think it depends on the LO.  Some kiddos need to make up sleep, while others just need to go to sleep in their sleep window, sleep their 1.5h-2h normal naps, etc. and all is fine in their world.  Clear as mud, huh?  As mentioned before, I'd pay attention to patterns that pop up and let that be your guide as to what he's "telling" you.

So I stretched to 9am for a nap (good idea?) and he did 2.25hrs.

If he slept that long, it sounds like he did fine with that A time.

I maybe would have made BT 7 on a day like that.  How has today gone?

[AliG]

Yep, that's exactly what I did. BT 7.

Today we are trying switching to short am/long pm as I figure the night sleep disruption over the past few weeks has to be down to something. So, if we try this and give it a go for a week and still no change, then we'll know it wasn't that the long am/short pm wasn't working.

I'm currently trying (based on wake up of 6.45)

sleep 9.45-10.45
sleep 2-3.30
sleep 7.30

He did the hour this morning and I've just put him down now - he seemed exhausted so I'm hoping he'll do 1.5hrs. WHo knows though.

Even when he was v young and dropped the CN, he coped v well with a long stretch before bed. So, again, I'm hoping that might be the key. As we had another 1.5hr NW last night, as, because he seemed so tired yesterday evening, BT was only 3hrs after waking from the pm nap. So that obviously backfired!