Author Topic: could "over-feeding" be instigator of allergies?  (Read 4357 times)

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Offline suzymoreland

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could "over-feeding" be instigator of allergies?
« on: June 02, 2011, 17:35:20 pm »
Could the 3-hour (or less) feeding schedule during the day and especially at night be overloading babies' systems so their digestive tract never gets any rest or healing? Could this be setting them up for further irritation by things their mothers eat? Not to start a debate, just food for thought...

"With the stomach and bowels in excellent condition baby defies all kinds of diseases, provided it is given the simple, commonsense attentions needed otherwise, such as being kept warm and clean in a well ventilated room. With a healthy alimentary canal, which comes with proper feeding, the little one can withstand the attack of the vast horde of germs which so trouble adult minds, also adult bodies, when people fail to give themselves proper care.
 
The results of too frequent feeding and overfeeding are appalling.  The first ill effect is digestive disturbance. Then one or more of the ills of childhood make their appearance. These are called diseases, but they are only symptoms of perverted nutrition, though we insist on giving them names.

In infants whose digestive power is not very strong, the excessive amount of milk curdles, as does the part that is digested. The water of the milk is absorbed, but the curds pass into the colon without being digested and they are discharged in the stool as curds. They are partly decomposed on the journey through the alimentary canal, producing poisons, a part of which is absorbed. A part remains in the colon, making the bowel discharges very offensive.

Strong babies with great digestive power are often able to digest and assimilate enormous quantities of milk, several quarts a day. They can not use all this food. If they could their size would be enormous within a short time. They do not find it so easy to excrete the excess as to assimilate it. The skin, kidneys, lungs and the bowels find themselves
overtaxed. Often the mucous membrane of the nose and throat are called upon to assist in the elimination. In other cases too much of the work of excretion is thrown upon the skin. The proper thing to do is to reduce the feeding greatly. Then the acid-producing fermentation in stomach and bowels will cease, but enough food to nourish the body will be absorbed, the skin will have but its normal work to perform, the cause of the irritation is gone and the effects will disappear in a short time. Two weeks are often sufficient to bring back the smooth, soft skin that every baby should have. The sufferers from these troubles are almost invariably overweight, and the parents wonder why their babies, who are so healthy, should be troubled thus! "
excerpts taken from Maintaining Health by Dr. RL Alsaker

I don't agree with everything he has proposed in his writings, especially since it has been nearly 100 years since, but has anyone really considered this? For my own mind's sake, I only want to know if anyone has had allergy symptoms begin after they were on a 4-hour feeding schedule WITH NO feeds for 8+ hours at night?
Wirth 03-12-2006
AlmaRuth 02-09-2011

Offline suzymoreland

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Re: could "over-feeding" be instigator of allergies?
« Reply #1 on: June 02, 2011, 17:40:33 pm »
"Three or four feedings a day are sufficient for any baby. The feedings should be arranged so that they are evenly distributed during the day, and nothing is to be given at night except water. Overfed babies are irritable and cry often. The mothers interpret this as a sign of hunger. Most babies do not know what hunger is. Like adults they become thirsty, but instead of getting water to quench their thirst they are given milk. This satisfies for a little while, then the irritability due to milk spoiled, in the alimentary tract causes more restlessness and crying, and they are fed again. The comedy of errors continues until it is turned into a tragedy. The signs of over-consumption of food by the infants are the same as those shown by adults. They are discomfort and disease. The former manifests in crossness and irritability. The disease may be of any kind, ranging from a rash to a high fever.

After reading this, some are sure to ask how many ounces to feed the baby. I don't know. No one else knows. Different babies have different requirements. The key is given above. If the babies become ill it is
nearly always due to overfeeding and poor food, so the proper thing to do is to reduce the food intake. "
excerpts taken from Maintaining Health by Dr. RL Alsaker

Is it not true as adults we should refrain from eating at night (fasting) so our digestive tracts have time to rest? That's why we call the first meal break-fast!
« Last Edit: June 02, 2011, 17:45:57 pm by suzymoreland »
Wirth 03-12-2006
AlmaRuth 02-09-2011

Offline suzymoreland

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Re: could "over-feeding" be instigator of allergies?
« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2011, 18:21:50 pm »
My little AlmaRuth is currently troubled by thin, green, foul-smelling poo, and tummy troubles rendering her unable to take a proper nap despite being on EASY since birth and having a working sleep ritual where she puts herself to sleep. Milk allergy may be a concern since I have abstained for a week, but drank some last night and she has nasal congestion this morning. But should I blame that or is it just offending her now because of her already irritated bowels?

She had diarrhea for the last two weeks, and it's now subsided, but I made her go all night without nursing, and have spaced our daily nursing to 3-4 hours in between. Seems like all our troubles started when a midwife searching for anything wrong with my perfectly healthy, sleeping, 2-week-old infant told me she may need to put on weight quicker, so I should disrupt my wonderful 3-hour daily routine and 5-hour night-time, and switch to 2-hours day, 3-hours night. Grrr, so mad at myself for doing it. It wreaked havoc all around! Sure, she's fat and seemingly healthy, but I am not, she won't sleep during the day, and now she's actually ill. Most recently, we were falling asleep during night feedings, waking up an hour later to try to finish, and continuing this all night long. I believe this started the diarrhea, although the tummy troubles were already in place.

I feel we are getting better, I just need to be more patient as it takes at least 2 weeks. In the meantime, I have to continue to abstain from certain foods, mainly dairy, so I don't irritate things further, I learned this morning. One other factor I must consider is stress. I can't let mistakes of the past anger or frustrate me. I must remain calm, level-headed, and happy, especially when nursing:

"Like hatred, anger produces poisons in the system. An angry mother's milk has been known to kill the nursing child." excerpt taken from Maintaining Health by Dr. RL Alsaker

I sure hope I'm on the right track!
Wirth 03-12-2006
AlmaRuth 02-09-2011

Offline suzymoreland

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Re: could "over-feeding" be instigator of allergies?
« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2011, 18:55:25 pm »
Reading a lot of instances of green poo today - is it the heat and could this be more proof for Dr. Alsaker's insights?

"The passage of curds in the stool is a danger signal indicating overfeeding and should be heeded immediately. If it is not, the chances for a ease of cholera infantum, especially in warm weather, are great. Cholera infantum is due to overfeeding, or the use of inferior milk, or both. It is a form of milk poisoning, in which the bowels are very irritable. As a matter of self-protection they throw out a large quantity of serum, which soon depletes the system of the poor little sufferer... If cholera infantum makes its appearance the baby is given its best chance to live if feeding is stopped immediately, warm water given whenever desired,
but not too large quantities at a time. Give no cathartics, for they irritate an already seriously disturbed mucous membrane... Keep the baby comfortable, seeing that the feet and abdomen are kept warm, but give
plenty of fresh air. Medicines only aggravate a malady that is already serious enough. "


I don't mean to sound crazy, but what I consider crazy is to be a blind follower of a doctor's guessing game. My child looks very healthy and I am not afraid that she will starve to death if I withhold a few feedings. I do not believe that my milk needs to be replaced with something artificial until she gets better. This link may be  a bit unsettling for its' extremes, but hopefully no one here is at an extreme state of illness...

http://chestofbooks.com/health/children/Herbert-Shelton/The-Hygienic-Care-of-Children/Common-Disorders-Of-Infants-And-Children-Cholera-Infantum.html

Has any of this been disproven?
Wirth 03-12-2006
AlmaRuth 02-09-2011

Offline anna*

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Re: could "over-feeding" be instigator of allergies?
« Reply #4 on: June 02, 2011, 19:07:16 pm »
But how do you even get breastfeeding established if you're only doing 3 feeds a day?? Is the suggestion that you let a hungry baby scream for hours instead of feeding??





Offline firsttimemummy

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Re: could "over-feeding" be instigator of allergies?
« Reply #5 on: June 02, 2011, 19:18:55 pm »
"Like hatred, anger produces poisons in the system. An angry mother's milk has been known to kill the nursing child."
i think this is a bit severe!
My little AlmaRuth is currently troubled by thin, green, foul-smelling poo, and tummy troubles rendering her unable to take a proper nap despite being on EASY since birth and having a working sleep ritual where she puts herself to sleep. Milk allergy may be a concern since I have abstained for a week, but drank some last night and she has nasal congestion this morning.
The nasal congestion after re-introducing dairy to my son was what highlighted his intolerence to me .....
L x Having a bw break from 1 Feb 2012 - if you want to get in touch please send me a pm.  I may not be here but you are all in my thoughts xxxx (probably be back some time)

still happily married, just not counting!

Offline suzymoreland

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Re: could "over-feeding" be instigator of allergies?
« Reply #6 on: June 02, 2011, 19:31:31 pm »
I know, I'm not sure that you can start off that way, nor that you should ever only feed 3 times a day. (But of course on a 4-hour schedule by 4 months is only 4 feeds a day?) My concern is we are being encouraged to feed as often as possible to gain weight and establish a good supply, going every 2 hours baby can nap no more than 45 minutes and will then fall asleep during feedings throwing you completely off! I can't say that "following baby's cues" is best for me because I still can't decipher her hunger cry from tired cry, although I feel I really know when she's tired (thanks to EASY). Many of us may not be cutting out night feedings soon enough? I'm just wondering if he's right about that causing all these tummy troubles in healthy babies? But I made it through one night without feeding her and only giving her a little water. She wasn't happy, but we were together and she cried the same as she does during the day when we're trying to go back to sleep mid-nap. ? And the diarrhea stopped. It's still green though. :(
« Last Edit: June 02, 2011, 22:16:31 pm by suzymoreland »
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Offline firsttimemummy

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Re: could "over-feeding" be instigator of allergies?
« Reply #7 on: June 02, 2011, 19:49:01 pm »
I would speak to another health visitor or two and get their opinions too.  Maybe your one was concerned about your supply and suggested you feed more often to ensure your supply is enough. 

I think that if the above was true, that you quoted, then the advice would still be the same ... but 100 years on (and much before then) the advice has been to feed every 3 or so  hours (depending on age). Even adults eat more than 3 times a day, and the advice for adults is little and often.

I think the "feed on demand" means that you don't just look at a clock any more and literally feed to the minute you are "meant to" but go by your LOs cues, which means that you DO feed them when they need it (eg when ill, growth spurts etc) as each baby is different.  It also depends on how much they feed each time and their weight/metabolism so it is not good to say a 2 month old baby must eat x/y/z at x/y/z o'clock (adults don't all eat the same!)
L x Having a bw break from 1 Feb 2012 - if you want to get in touch please send me a pm.  I may not be here but you are all in my thoughts xxxx (probably be back some time)

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Offline ~Karen~

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Re: could "over-feeding" be instigator of allergies?
« Reply #8 on: June 02, 2011, 20:35:04 pm »
I didn't feed my babies because I wanted to establish supply or to get them to gain weight, I fed them because they were hungry.  The other two things happened because they fed.  I feed my babies on demand which is usually every 3 hours or so when they're newborns.  I have no idea how you're supposed to not feed a hungry baby.  Just sounds cruel to me. 

Offline suzymoreland

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Re: could "over-feeding" be instigator of allergies?
« Reply #9 on: June 02, 2011, 22:05:28 pm »
No, his ideas on health were not the norm back then, he was speaking against the norm. (And I omitted his references to the high death rate of the time.) He's not right about everything, but there may be some merit to the general point of overfeeding. Don't worry, I'm not holding out when I know she's truly hungry. How can she be hungry if she falls asleep after 5 minutes? I think she's in pain (or in habit) and can't go to sleep. So she's either using me to soothe or using the milk to calm the acid in her stomach, which is only temporary, actually promoting the problem even more. The lesson here is to never force-feed a baby when she doesn't ask for it or when you feel you need to increase your supply, even at the advice of a "health care professional". That's what I did during her 3rd week in order to "bulk her up". Very foolish and I wish I could go back, but I just have to go on. And I said this somewhere else, best case scenario, I return to a happy baby who can sleep through the night! Hoping for 8 hours tonight!

By the way, I think there's a commercial by the California Dairy Producers that goes, "The best milk comes from happy cows!" LOL (in reference to not being angry)
« Last Edit: June 02, 2011, 22:07:18 pm by suzymoreland »
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Offline RachelC

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Re: could "over-feeding" be instigator of allergies?
« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2011, 00:29:31 am »
Ok, seems as though this book was published in 1931, whether or not it is against the grain, it is an old opinion.  Much of what Tracy has promoted in her books is often against the grain as well, but I will also add, she had revised somethings that she suggested and we here on the site continue to tweak things as new research comes up.  Do we think this doctor would still uphold his thoughts today?  I don't know the answer to that one.

What I do know is... when a baby is hungry, we need to feed him, yes, also in the middle of the night.  Yes, adults do not feed through the night, but we also have much larger stomachs and can digest foods that sustain us for longer periods.  Breast milk is very quickly digested by babies, and since they can hold so little at a time, it seems unreasonable to limit feeds to 3-4 per day and none over night.  What about growth spurts?  What about needing a little extra one day?  Adults often seek a snack one day, but not the next.  The difference is that we can take care of our needs ourselves and not rely on someone else to feed us.  Or we can say "I'm hungry" where as a baby can only cry, even if you are with him, hunger pains hurt.  And yes, I have woken in the middle of the night and gotten up for a midnight snack from time to time....

With current research and suggesting eliminating dairy from your diet, I do not find it a coincidence that your baby reacted the way she did with you reintroducing dairy.

Yes, overfeeding can cause green frothy bowel movements... from a foremilk imbalance.  I also find it hard to overfeed a breast fed baby, as in general, they will only take until they are full.

How can she be hungry if she falls asleep after 5 minutes?  She's tired as well.  I can only assume you are talking middle of the night feeds here...


Proud to have breastfed for a combined total of 35 months


Offline firsttimemummy

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Re: could "over-feeding" be instigator of allergies?
« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2011, 08:14:47 am »
And I said this somewhere else, best case scenario, I return to a happy baby who can sleep through the night! Hoping for 8 hours tonight!
she will do this soon enough - she is maybe having a growth spurt and needing those extra feeds.  Once you establish a good EASY routine you will be able to differentiate more between different cries, and the boards here will support you.  If she is falling asleep after 5 mins of feed then she is probably really overtired
L x Having a bw break from 1 Feb 2012 - if you want to get in touch please send me a pm.  I may not be here but you are all in my thoughts xxxx (probably be back some time)

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Offline ~*Nicole*~

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Re: could "over-feeding" be instigator of allergies?
« Reply #12 on: June 03, 2011, 14:42:36 pm »
This is very interesting.







Offline suzymoreland

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Re: could "over-feeding" be instigator of allergies?
« Reply #13 on: June 04, 2011, 05:49:21 am »
I think you are right. There is so much contradictory information, it's hard to determine which way to go. I will delete this thread soon, as I'm beginning to think there really isn't much merit to it after all. I just found this information that describes green poo as being a sign of underfeeding - from the bile in the stomach having nothing to work on. We're going to work on getting back to a 3-hour EASY routine, and maybe just try for a 5-hour stretch at night. Hopefully this settles her tummy enough to get some rest! Thanks for all of the comments...

http://www.baby-medical-questions-and-answers.com/green-diarrhea.html

And another on diarrhea...

http://www.askdrsears.com/topics/skin-care/diarrhea

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Offline firsttimemummy

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Re: could "over-feeding" be instigator of allergies?
« Reply #14 on: June 04, 2011, 07:22:01 am »
Yes, there never are simple answers but with the help of the forums you should get the support you need.  Symptoms are different with different children and things change from time to time.  Green poo can be caused by different things but usually nothing major that can't be sorted.  It is worrying when your LO changes, but as you will probably remember from Wirth, as soon as you think you have got things sorted, they change!! Also, remember AlmaRuth is a different baby so will feed/gain weight etc differently to Wirth so try not to compare too much.

The boards can support you through the growth spurts, increase in A time needed, figuring out what the cause of the green poo is, figuring out any intolerences, etc etc. Welcome :)
L x Having a bw break from 1 Feb 2012 - if you want to get in touch please send me a pm.  I may not be here but you are all in my thoughts xxxx (probably be back some time)

still happily married, just not counting!