major food refusal, 16mth old, please help :(

[huntersmummyinoz]

I'm totally stressed out and having a hard time with Kingston refusing food at the moment and am not sure about how to handle it. (My eldest ate pretty much anything so this is all new territory for me!)
 
I think it has started as a result of teething, last month he got 3 molars and the 4th has cut about half way thru now. 4 canines are moving all at once and i expect to see the first in a week or two at most. Also suspect his appetite has lowered as is common at this age, and think some of it is behavioural saying no just because he can too. He also started getting fussier, almost distrusting in food I was offering, when I started to offer more new foods (he is on a very restricted diet due to MSPI, and also salicylates intolerance). I also think part of the problem is that he hasnt been exposed to enuf range of foods due to his intolerances, so whereas you can normally offer a wide range of fruit and let them choose, he can only have 4 types anyway, so if he refuses a couple doesnt leave you with much range). He is also now very aware of what everyone else is eating. I try to make a meal that everyone can eat twice a week, and to make other meals look similar to ours as much as i can but it's not always possible.
 
Around when his molars started he would refuse occasional foods but still ate pretty well. About 4 weeks ago he stopped eating any fruit other than pear puree that he gets at breaky (bananas and pawpaw used to be his favourite foods). About 2 weeks he stopped eating any vegetable other than green beans, and small amount of zucchini and sweet potato pieces that he has with lunch. This week he has now started refusing cereal after about 2 - 4 spoonfuls and then screams and cries for his cup of milk, refusing most meat, which has previously been a favourite too, and all meals are hit and mess as to whether or not he will eat anything and it is becoming quite stressful. If he does attempt a new food I have put on his plate, usual result is he spits it out and then refuses to eat anything else for that meal. If I stick to previously accepted foods, often most of it is left on the plate too.
 
The only foods I can reliably get him to eat everyday at the moment are: pear puree and 1tbs apple puree, rice cakes or water crackers, teddy bear biscuits (but only gets these occasionally like once a week), banana bread, pasta (usually served with a meat and veg sauce, but is starting to get fussy if has 'too much' sauce on it now), and scrambled egg or omelette, yoghurt (tho has only been eating half a tub the last 2 days), 1 tbs equivalent of zucchini and sweet potato pieces, chips (again gets these maybe once a week). 
 
I'm stressed and worried, and don't know what to do. What strategies are best for dealing with this type of behaviour?

Thanks,
Kirry

[charmie]

Katrina started refusing all her favourite foods one by one after she turned 1.  She was a wonderful eater before that.  I think most of it was from the new found power of being able to refuse it.  I was very stressed by it too.  I did the mistake of stopping offering her the foods she was refusing and the choice kept dwindling until I started resorting to chicken nuggets and fish fingers just so she would eat something.  This lasted for a whole year!  The hv said I should stop stocking these foods altogether and start offering her whatever we were eating.  So I went cold turkey.  I started preparing one meal for everyone.  At first she was not impressed to say the least.  But things improved.  She's still very picky and getting her to try something new is like murder to her.  But much better than chicken nuggets and fish fingers.  I still cook the same thing for all and sometimes she still refuses or takes ages playing around with her food.  But I don't offer an alternative.  There's also a set time for meals.  She has x amount of time to eat and then lunch/dinner is over.

Looking back I should have kept offering all the range of food she was eating before this phase started.  And showing them our stress doesn't help.  You need to act a bit business like.  You offer the food, no coaxing (I dont think it helps anyway). You set yourself a time limit.  And you take the food away without offering an alternative.  At some point he'll be hungry and he will eat what you offer. 

That's from my experience, and what I think I should have done.  I hope someone else can give you a solution which they actually tried and worked for them.

Hugs xxxx

[~inbalance~]

(((hugs))) Kirry.  Both of my boys are giving me a hard time right now and I'm really starting to stress as well.  T was a previously good eater so I'm not sure what is going on there.  F has never been a great eater but he is at an all time low.

I do offer what I make for the family all the time.  It feels like they refuse everything these days.  Even most fruits which they both used to eat.  I don't really believe it making special foods just for them, they get what we all get.  I understand the frustration though.  I'm at the point right now where I just want them to eat!

I never used to worry about picky phases, etc.  Figured they would regulate what they needed and overall were getting enough.  I am starting to worry now though simply because they are just so little and don't seem to be getting any bigger.    I plan on taking them to see the ND soon for more ideas.

[Shiv52]

I have done alot of work with LOs who are really picky.  Very often the pickiness starts with a bug or teething so parents alter things to get them to eat and it reinforces to them that they can control meals/food.

Best thing you can do is not get into offering alternatives.  Just offer as you normally would and if they don't eat, thats fine.  How is he with choices?  You could offer a choice between 2 things at  the start of a meal so at least they have an element of control but its a controlled choice between two things, if they don't choose you just choose one of the two things for him.

We always had an element of choice for breakfast and lunch but dinner was always just set.  I always made sure there was something she would generally always eat so she generally ate something. 

On poor eating days I did sometimes give M a bowl of porridge before bed to make sure she wasn't hungry but because it was a different time of the day it wouldn't have made her think it was an alternative to whatever she refused earlier IYKWIM? 

We did cut our PM snack at 18 months so she was hungrier for dinner but couldn't cut the AM snack as she ended up grumpy by lunch.  She always ate most in the first half of the day and still does.  Dinner can still be hit and miss even now at 3.

{{{hugs}}}  It is tough when they aren't eating well xx

[*Ali*]

I have heard of people leaving a plate of finger foods on the coffee table with no pressure to eat it so their LO could eat it as snacks when they wanted and would often try new things in their own time. Not a great habit to get into though I admit.
Would K be interested in helping you make the food? Of course he won't be much help in reality but if he felt he had been involved in the making and been allowed to "play" with the foods he might be more interested in eating them. I am thinking things like homemade pizza, pasta sauces etc. So he could just pour stuff in/on for you.
Otherwise I agree with pps that I would just keep offering foods and giving him the opportunities to eat even if he doesn't. It must be so hard when K has to eat different meals to the rest of the family. I know Cadan just wants what everyone else has which is why I rarely order him a meal in a restaurant I just get a small plate and put some of my food on his plate. Would K eat if he thought it was yours or H's?

[hrk]

Hi Kirry.  Teething made H severely reduce the amt of food he would eat.  If that is it, it is probably a waiting game.  But the reflux/food allergies can also be an underlying issue for kids with tactile defensivenss.  We have had tactile defensiveness lasting for quite some time stemming from food intollerance and reflux.  

I did read an article from our ot on the link between food allergies.  It is a pretty small study, though.  I will post it.  http://www.allergysa.org/journals/march2004/tactile%20defensive%20children.pdf  I think you have already tested for Ige allergies, right?

The other thought is that I was looking at some books that talk about chaining foods together.  Slowly starting with what he likes and then slightly building on those to get to other textures/consistencies in foods.  I don't know the correct language for it, but I can look to see if I can find some of the titles I was looking at.  I was going to look at them for some ideas for H.  Any chance you can see an occupational therapist?  Sensory issues like tactile defensiveness are their "specialty".  They could help, if you feel it is at that level.  

[bug_blues70]

Following along. Also want to say Kirry, my LO eats almost nothing at all when teething. I don't have to worry about weight gain tho, as she's always in the upper percentiles (is K?) but I do worry about her waking at night due to hunger. Which brings me to my question for the pps:

when you say you give no alternatives and you give a certain time limit... what do you do if/when they wake for hunger during the night? I don't mind doing that for breakfast or lunch, but I'm always afraid that if she doesn't eat dinner she'll have really long NW due to hunger...

[EloysH]

((hugs))  its awful, I know.  With Jarrah he went through phases like that but i never worred too much because he was a good weight, he slept well, he had gown out of food intolerances so I knew he as able to offer enough calcium and protein. I never was tempted to cook many meal,force feed etc.  But its the opposite for Kai,  I don't have those luxuries.    So the stress seems acute.

Kai is also refusing alot of foods with the teething.  I started limiting what I would offer, then realised things were falling off the menu quick. So I have started offering everything again.  That is helping alot.    I was getting really stressed throwing out food and having to have 3-4 options I knew he would eat, it was also alot of extra work - you and know how hard it is already with the cooking for these two boys and their diets. And also stressful trying to think of 3 mealoptions, it is hard enoug getting one meal into a plate.

Another thing that is helping is that I have modifed our family meals a bit so that they are similar to what he can eat. That is helping alot.   For example last night, I cooked a chicken casserole in hmoe made chicken stock, garlic, leek, with allowed vegetables for Kai and some grains thrown in.  When finished, I took out his portion, and made 3 meal options with it:
1. finely chopped "as is"
2. All pureed
3. The pureed mixed into some cooked brown rice.
  So he thought he had 3 choices when really  all I cooked was one meal. He probably ate 100G of those foods in the meal.  He was calling for banannas the whole time, I just kept saying "bannanas all gone" That was so much less work!!

Maybe try and present  the same food differently with different textures to trick him into thinking he is eating something different. After all, textures are just as important as the different flavours right?: - stir fried, fine chop, puree, cubed, fried in gee, veg  mixed with egg yolk, made into little egg quiches (your recipe you told me) etc

HTH hun    xx

[hrk]

I pureed and put the food in a format that H liked most.  We typically eat the same food.  I blended any sauces to make them a texture he would eat.  Cut veggies very small.  He gags and dislikes lumpy foods. Soups are a no, so I make the soup (homemade broth; veggies cut small), and then strain out the veggies and noodles for him. 

A side note is that it takes some sustained muscle strength to chew meats (and other foods for a whole meal), but you said he used to like meat (so I am not sure that it is an issue). With H's low tone, he was chewing the same piece of chicken for a half hour.  Can he use a straw, yet?  That help lo's strengthen a lot of the muscles in the mouth.  I think H wa 2.5 before he could use a straw.

I also keep putting new foods on his plate; it takes a while before kids may even try a food.  So, I usually do at least two things I know he will eat well, and then add one or new two things (even if I know he will not touch it).  If I have made a new menu item, then I will likely put a peanut butter and jelly on the side as an option.  But sometimes he literally has six options on his plate.  I actually find that having three options works better than six; I think he finds it overwhelming and all the food is getting mixed and scrunched together. 

Because I don't eat meat, I tend to make the same meal in a few formats (like Eloys).  I just cook meat separate (add it to the boys), and make sure Heath's is in a fashion that will work best for him. 

Here are some titles I was browsing; going to see if some are at the library.  I probably won't get to reading much because we are busy with other things right now.
http://www.amazon.com/Food-Chaining-Feeding-Problems-Child%C2%92s/dp/1600940161/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1307672021&sr=8-2
http://www.amazon.com/How-Get-Your-Kid-Eat/dp/0915950839
http://www.amazon.com/Secrets-Feeding-Healthy-Family-Orchestrating/dp/0967118921/ref=pd_sim_b_1
http://www.amazon.com/Child-Mine-Feeding-Love-Sense/dp/0923521518/ref=pd_sim_b_2

I do know that there is an oral brushing routine that ot's may use to help with oral sensitivity.  But my thought is this really could be his teeth.  Has his reflux increased as well?

[hrk]

Kirry, I did have a couple of thoughts.  While most moms in bc were doing a morning snack, I didn't with H.  There were two reasons.  First, I was doing "lunch" around 10:15/10:30 for a while to give his tummy an hour to empty before lying down for nap.  He was always ready for nap pretty early.  Second, if he was eating snack prior to meals, he didn't eat much for meals.  I keep afternoon snack to milk and something light.

Just tonight, I was reminded of a third scenario that arises.  Dinner can't be too early.  If he skips dinner, I often bring out the same meal later, and he will eat it.  Tonight, I tried to do dinner time a little early (5:00 instead of 5:30), and he had one bite of everything and a half a glass of milk.  I brought him in at 7:45 pm to get ready for bed.  I asked if he wanted his dinner, and he nearly cleared his plate.  Hunger plays a big factor for him.  And he said he liked it all, too.  (He rarely eats rice, and he had all of it.)  :-)  He usually says "I no never eat it".     Of course the full tummy before bed is making me cringe.  Fingers crossed we don't hear a peep.

You have probably already tried most of those things, but I thought I would mention them.

[bug_blues70]

hi!  i just want to second what pp said... ellen eats a snack when she wakes (which i wish would be breakfast but she never eats much), lunch at 11 (nap at 12) and then a light snack a little after she wakes, so around 2:30, and dinner at 6. If I give her her snack too late (if I forget ) or if I let her eat too much, she won't eat dinner. She won't eat any more than that... two snacks and two meals. I've tried and tried for three meals, but I guess she just won't eat if she's not hungry, kwim?

[charmie]

I didn't do snacks either.  K wouldnt be hungry enough for her meals when I gave snacks.

[huntersmummyinoz]

right, this is the 3rd time i have attempted to reply. i normally bw during nap times but ds1 is in the midst of dropping his atm.

first of all, thankyou so so much for all of your replies.

ok, so on advice from you lovely ladies, i have changed strategy a little and things are a little better. for snacks i have been sitting him near the kitchen bench, putting a few items on his tray or on the bench where he can ask for them (eg. yoghurt) and keeping myself busy doing dishes, preparing dinner, etc. i used to sit with him for all meals. and dinner time, i have been more conscious of making our dinner appear to be the same even if it's not quite (due to food intolerances) and putting only one or two of each item on his tray and having a big 'sharing plate' on the table so he can ask for more. so he feels he has some control over it i guess by asking for more. and having some mashed veg that he can see and ask for too. snacks were pretty small before but i am sticking to fruit, yoghurt or rice cakes mostly for now.

as a result, he is now accepting some of his usual foods again (ie. eating meat again, eating beans and potato again - so long as it looks like a chip , eating yoghurt again, etc).

main problems i have now are:
breaky - he will still eat only a couple of spoons and then cry for his milk. i resorted to putting the tv on for breaky the last 2 mornings (we rarely use tv for meals except lunch time as they sit on their own for that meal) and he has eaten all of his cereal. only looked to the kitchen for his milk once.
i'm a bit torn on this one, i dont like having him infront of the tv, but the only other option i am thinking is to drop the morning milk which would be pretty horrid for a couple of days, but then hopefully he would eat his breaky as no other option he is about to cut a canine which is why i have stalled with the tv for now. what do you think, do i just need to be brave and ditch it?

fruit and veggies
- this is the other problem, the only fruit he will eat is pear and apple puree, or a pear and banana puree. and veggies, he will eat beans, potato (but only mashed or chips), sweet potato and zucchini. i can get other veggies into him in omelettes, mini quiches, on pasta, but can get him to self feed other veggies. he wont pick it up or try it. he will pick it up and feed it to me, but that's as close as he'll get to touching it.
- i keep putting a few pieces of diff fruit or veg on his tray, but apart from that, any other strategies? eg. do i need to put just cut up fruit on his tray for snack and nothing else? or keep offering alongside one or two familiar foods?

wont self feed with spoon or fork
- he used to eat from a loaded spoon. does occasionally now but rarely and tbh i havent bothered with breaky the last few weeks as it's been a rush to try and get him to eat as much as possible before crying for milk. he has zero interest in eating with spoon from a bowl and i think if he could he may eat better (as he would be in control). once or twice a week i do offer the bowl and spoon  but he usually just gets peeved and cries for milk

i dont think it is a sensory issue as he's never gagged on food. handles chunks of meat, lumpy food, and harder foods like biscuits, even eats his rusks now. i think it's more lack of exposure due to food restrictions as to why he wont try new foods. (jean, does that sounds right in thinking it's not sensory related?)

i gave our dietician a 4 day food diary that she'll assess for us too so will see what she has to say. not sure she can help so much on getting him to eat tho.

hv thinks drop back on is milk, and no milk til eaten cereal. neocate is a lot higher in kilojoules than cows milk. BUT if he eats a good meal he will only drink 100mL milk. if he doesnt eat well, then he drinks 150 to 180mL. any thoughts?

snacks - i've def reduced them more over the last month or so. morning snack is really small eg. a couple of rice cakes, or water crackers, or a tiny muffin, any more and then he wont be interested in much lunch, but he cant last til lunch without tantrums without it. afternoon snack is now usually yoghurt, plus one or two other things (used to be just fruit and a cracker but wont touch the fruit now). i find he often eats a better dinner when he's had a good snack here, of course making sure it's not too big tho.

right, now to find time to look at some of those links jean posted! and will read thru your posts again as some great ideas in there to try.
thanks again ladies, welcome any more thoughts or suggestions you have

[Sam-n-Max's Mommy]

If it's ok, I'm going to follow along here.  Have many of the same problems and have been scared to take the plunge and not offer alternatives.  Finding these comments/suggestions really useful.

(((Hugs))) huntersmommy -- I know how stressful meal times can be.  Feel like I am losing my mind most days.

[bug_blues70]

kirry- i had the same issue with breakfast and her bottle. i dropped it cold turkey several months ago (7?) and immediately saw more solids intake, tho she still won't eat much for breakfast (she makes up for it later in the day). she now only has 2 bottles of FF - 6oz before nap which is right after lunch and 6-7 before bed which is (obviously) after dinner.

how much FF or milk is he taking per day? if its more than 16oz, i personally would start dropping that so he'll have more appetite for solids. he may *prefer* his milk, but he can't stay on liquids much longer, and I think if you take it away he'll start eating more solids, even if he's still picky with them. but that's just my opinion and I know there are lots of people with more experience with this stuff than me... maybe I'm just oversimplifying the problem. If so, I apologize!

[huntersmummyinoz]

nicole - hugs for you too hun, not easy is it!

megan - thanks hun. he was having 15 to 17oz before the drama started. he's actually now cut that back even more as he is only drinking half a cup of milk if he has eaten a decent meal now (do breaky and lunch milk has halved). BUT i do feel that milk is still bit of a problem for us. Neocate formula is much higher in calories than cows milk (not sure how compares to regular formula) so he could actually just drink his 3 milk feeds in a day and still gain weight paed doesnt want us to do cows milk til 18mths but even if he is fine, i'm hesitant cos he is on such a restricted diet i like that he gets enuf nutrition from formula. i do think that breaky milk has got to go tho.
oh and i forgot to answer your Q about what to do if waking during night hungry. i find at this age, it's more about total food intake for the day rather than how much they eat for dinner. so if they have grazed a bit all day, and dont eat dinner, then i wouldnt expect a hunger nw. however if they have eaten barely anything all day, including dinner, then yep they could wake from hunger. so if K has had a poor eating day i will try to offer something that he'll usually accept for dinner so that he has something.

shivi - so sorry i cant remember your first name, it's been a while
- what strategies do you recommend for fussy eaters in terms of how much new food to present at a time, how often, and alongside how many accepted foods??

[*Ali*]

Kirry, could you move the milk to the snack slot rather than with breakfast if you don't want to drop it altogether?
I would hide the veggies in whatever you can. Puree them and add them to sauces/pasta/mash potatoes etc. At least he is getting them even if it isn't solving the problem with him actively trying new foods.
I am no expert but would probably stick with one, possibly 2 new foods alongside foods he already likes.

[hrk]

i have been more conscious of making our dinner appear to be the same even if it's not quite (due to food intolerances) and putting only one or two of each item on his tray and having a big 'sharing plate' on the table so he can ask for more.

We do this, too.  Then he can feel more included and see others eating it too.

- i keep putting a few pieces of diff fruit or veg on his tray, but apart from that, any other strategies? eg. do i need to put just cut up fruit on his tray for snack and nothing else? or keep offering alongside one or two familiar foods?

I think you can try a combo, and see what works better.  I find that i have to scoop the new food for him to try it.  He will usually eat the foods he prefers on his own.  I tend to make trying the new food fun, and show him I am eating it (or tease him that I am going to eat his food).

breaky - he will still eat only a couple of spoons and then cry for his milk.

 H is a huge milk drinker.  Lately he has had half his milk around 7, and then breakfast a half hour to an hour later.  K may really want to soothe or be thirsty.  I don't know if that would help.  Then possibly that would take him to lunch?

H was pretty similar with regards to the utensils. He would still rather use his fingers or have me feed him.  His fine motor has come quite a ways, but he would get very frustrated.  Personally, I would still put them on the tray.  He doesn't have to use them, but when he is ready, they are there.  Even if he plays with it, it is still practice, iykwim.  Or get them out during some play time, so he can practice scooping with them.  Then there is no food pressure.

"Raising a sensory smart child" is a great book for all parents.  It talks about us all having a bit of 'sensory disorder". It is hard to say if it is; it definitely could be lack of food exposure.  but the lack of exposure is lack of exposure to sensory input; your mouth ison e of your senses.Thus resisiting something new could be discomfort with new forms/new foods/new sensory experiences..  I think I remember reading in that book that some kids sense of taste is so sensitive that they may refuse to eat the same food, if it is prepared wiht other ingredients or is a brand different than the one they are used to.  There is a bit more to it than just texture.  Some los have an issue with over stuffing/drooling, as they undersensitive or hyposensitive with regards to the sensory input.  And of course, I also already mentioned thelow tone, and that is a sensory issue as well.  

One of the books is on hold for me at the library.  I may get to it next week.  I think it is the one titled Child of mine.

I just looked in H's file, and I found a three page oral motor program from the ot.  send me a note if you want me to get a copy to you.  XXXXXXXXXXX

  

[EloysH]

Kirry,   hope things are continuing to improve    Just taking a stab at your milk/formula question....  I think he is old enough to drop the bottle and replace with solids, but I be scared to replace it with a breakfast that contains dairy (after what we have just been through with Kai screaming at night).

K's eating is getting steadily better, I am finding now that we are in our second week of sttn he seems to be in a better mood to eat.  Maybe his tummy isn't troubling him since now he is stricly dairy/soy/wheat free and only on 1 table spoon of high sals again, and his reflux smyptoms have altogether disappeared.   AND he isn't teething.

[hrk]

More hugs to you Kirry.  I hope no news is good news.  I wouldn't be in a hurry to get to milk.  When I said milk, I was referring to H.  I would keep going with the formula you are using, until the dr says to give it a try (and you feel ready).  What I was meaning to suggest was half of the formula right away for thirst, and then half with breakfast a half hour to an hour later.  (You may have to start with more than half of the formula intially, since he is used to a lot, and then taper a bit.)  I think H wakes pretty hungry/thirsty, so it takes the edge off.  He wants nothing to do with food right away.  Just a suggestion, and it may not work at all.  XXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Hugs to you, too Eloys.  I think scaling back was a good idea.  You may be able to pinpoint a bit more, or perhaps a combo of too many things flared things up.  Glad the teething is gone.  Super news on the 2 weeks!  Cheers!  XXXXXXXXXXX

[huntersmummyinoz]

thanks for sticking with me ladies he just cut a canine yesterday and has been losing the plot during the day so havent had much time to respond. surprising eating reasonably well, just not picking up any fruit or veggies of course and has been off his milk at breaky so go figure

ali, thanks. yep continuing with the mashed/chopped veggies in pasta and omelettes etc, he is happy eating them in that. and continuing to stick pieces on his plate that he doesnt touch. tho mind you, he has accepted 3 new foods this week (just not picking up fruit or veg), he is now eating grated cheese which is fabulous as now it wont be such a calcium concern to drop his breaky milk and he ate a couple of spoons of beetroot risotto last night, and he has had mashed stewed apple/pear/mango with df custard twice, that's huge! he is also drinking 'pear juice', really just 1tsp pear puree mixed in water but he has refused to drink this for ages. i'm hoping i can cut his breaky milk to half, and then replace his breaky milk with this 'juice' in a couple of weeks.

jean, thankyou so much for all the ideas and tips i havent seen other reflux symptoms but i guess it could be worse since he is teething so badly atm, and then yes maybe wanting to soothe with milk first up. i dont really like it, but i have stuck with tv at breaky all week and he hasnt asked for his milk til after he's eaten his cereal once, but i guess he is rather distracted by the tv. he's actually even eaten mini wheats twice again which he used to love but has refused for at least a month.
on the sensory stuff, we had a horrid time switching from neocate LCP (infant) to the toddler one, granted they do have a slightly diff taste but we still cant get him past 50/50 infant/toddler formula. and given that higher sals = higher flavour then maybe he is rejecting it based on that and prefering blander foods will def do some more reading. would love that oral motor program too please, it cant hurt.
i've actually changed approach a little too. in looking at the veggies he is eating (beans, sweet potato, zucchini, potato), they are all veggies that i started giving as puree, then mash, then chopped, then pieces. i'm thinking of trialling something similar for new tastes (eg. today he ate 1tsp mashed pumpkin, keep that up for a week to get him accepting the taste, then change the texture to chopped, etc). i'm still offering pieces on his tray for whatever it is worth. but i'm hoping this may get him to actually eat something if he does pick it up as he will already recognise the flavour. i dont know, maybe i'm clutching at straws

elo, thanks hun. he has rice milk on cereal atm. the first step of trialling cows milk would be on his cereal. i dont think i'm ready to touch that trial til all his canines are out, that way it should be a little clearer as to whether or not he is reacting (ie. nw, sore tummy, etc). he has been eating grated cheese for the last week, no reaction yet this time. 2/3mths ago he came out in a rash on day 5 and mucousy poop on day 6... wow, cant believe how much you had to scale back on sals for kai. was he on unlimited highs before??

[Truly Blessed]

Hi Hon,

I can assure you it will pass! We have just been there with our 16 month old. If you look down the posts you will find several of mine if you would like to read what worked for us, but mainly you will have to wait out the teething. Our DS had 3 molars cutting when all of it started, so there you go  . Rest assured he won't starve  . When I chilled out about it, he did so I think that's really important.

(x)

[huntersmummyinoz]

thanks sammysmommy. did u always put an accepted food on the plate with new foods, or just all new things to get him eating? i am so over teething, cant wait for these next 3 canines to be out so we can have a break for a few mths!

[EloysH]

Sounds like you are making good progress despite how unsettled he is during the day!

Kais molars are on the way we can feel a lump!

wow, cant believe how much you had to scale back on sals for kai. was he on unlimited highs before?

Probably an over reaction.  Naturopath has suggested its probably the dairy based on his IGE test results back at 10 months old and to bring him back to his previous level of sals as soon as his runny nose is gone. Will have a good idea as to the cause of the NW's after that trial since he will be dairy free.  Apparantly the reason for no mucus poos on dairy is tha the dose of dairy was not enough to irritate his gut, but is enoguh to irritate the nervous system - hence NW'ing. That's the theory anyway.

[Truly Blessed]

Hi Hon,

I stuck with all the things I knew he liked so that I could be sure he didn't just dislike the taste. I think the time for new foods is when things are more settled IMHO.

xxx.

[Sam-n-Max's Mommy]

Hi again, ladies.  Kirry - I too believe that the teething is a major, major factor.  S is eating considerably better the past few days and when I caught a glimpse into his mouth, I saw that the last molar was at the surface.  He is cutting canines too -- while he has crying outbursts during the day (due to pain here and there I think), it hasn't been affecting his eating quite as badly. 

One thing I am doing that may be working -- I had found that he had fallen into a routine where he would eat the same exact meal for lunch and dinner every day.  Breakfast is a little easier because he eats more of a variety there.  For example, at lunch he always has yogurt.  So I started moving it around a little.  Sometimes he'll have it for lunch, sometimes for breakfast, sometimes for dinner, sometimes not at all. My theory is that he was expecting the yogurt at lunch every day so he was unwilling to have anything other than that.  I would still give him something he likes and something (or things) new, but I think maybe varying what meals the favorites are served at can help.  It can all backfire in my face and he can stop eating today, so I don't know.

It is great that he has accepted some new foods! Doesn't it feel like a major accomplishment?  The happiness I feel when he tries something new is probably not normal.

[huntersmummyinoz]

Apparantly the reason for no mucus poos on dairy is tha the dose of dairy was not enough to irritate his gut, but is enoguh to irritate the nervous system - hence NW'ing. That's the theory anyway.

very interesting! he had another 3.5hr NW last night! he called out after 45 mins so i gave nurofin and left, but then it took him that long to fall asleep afterwards!! sounds a bit too much to be just teeth i am Qing the cheese but am hesitant to stop it just yet as i fully expect him to refuse it again if i didnt give it for a week. did kai have scratch tests too or just IGE? i only got the scratch tests done for K.

samsmommy, great idea to switch things up a bit. i have wondered if he has been hanging out for his yoghurt and cheese at afternoon tea, so will try moving it around a bit too.

The happiness I feel when he tries something new is probably not normal.

OMG i so know how you feel!!

[huntersmummyinoz]

had dietician appt today. he has spiked on his growth curve (from 90th up to 95th percentile), so part of the prob is def self-regulating his food intake since he isnt growing so much. she suggested either dropping breaky milk or giving only half cup milk at breaky and lunch in order to switch preference to solids rather than milk. will wait another week or two to make sure cheese is ok tho as otherwise have to look at supplements. and she didnt really have much else to offer in way of advice other than to keep putting the food on his plate and hopefully one day he will pick it up she said he actually eats much more variety than most little ones she sees. just wish he would pick up some fruit or a vegetable!

[Edesanja]

My theory is that he was expecting the yogurt at lunch every day so he was unwilling to have anything other than that.

I am just starting to doing something similar. I find that if either rice or pasta are on the menu, he will NOT eat anything else. He just wants more and more. So I was thinking of doing dinner in 2 parts if we're having rice or pasta and offering those after he's eaten whatever else it is we're having. He will eat other things some of the time, but not at all if his favourites are involved.
I'm worried though that he'll just start hanging out for the 2nd part of dinner...

will wait another week or two to make sure cheese is ok tho as otherwise have to look at supplements.

Has anyone (dietician etc) said anything about supplements? I'm still doing my best to get his calcium in via food until we can try dairy again (we have had SIX weeks and counting of J being unwell in one way shape or form ) but doing a quick read about calcium supplements got me a bit weary about going down that route...

[EloysH]

Jenny, since we pulled Kai off all daiy except butter and his sals are not umlimited highs anymore I've requested a calcium supplement from my natruopath.  I have a dietician appointment in two weeks too, will see which brand they offer. What have you read Jenny?  The naturopath reckons they will do no harm, and as long as its not a calcium cabonate based supplement and is "balanced" then it will be absorbed well.   I will PM you the ones she recommends for us in Australia if you like.  Its hard as many have spinach and things that Kai can't eat in them!

[Edesanja]

Eloise, I have had no professional advice on it, so it's just my googling skills with no educated knowledge. But I found a number of articles like this one (and they're talking about older people esp women taking calcium for osteoparosis different scenario too) http://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/wellbeing/3974840/Calcium-supplements-raise-heart-risk

It just gave me reason enough to want to check it out before going that route if we need to. Hopefully we can do this danged dairy trail again soon though!

[Mom to M&M]

My DS can't have cow's milk and had stopped drinking milk anyway once we took his bottle away. He gets some calcium from pizza with goat's cheese and the occasional grilled cheese with goat's cheese but not enough - his ND had highly recommended a liquid ionic calcium concentrate from New Beginnings and we've been using it successfully for at least 4-6 weeks now...

[Shiv52]

shivi - so sorry i cant remember your first name, it's been a while 
- what strategies do you recommend for fussy eaters in terms of how much new food to present at a time, how often, and alongside how many accepted foods??

Hello!  I would probably work on a few foods but not so many that he isn't seeing them regularly enough IYKWIM.  So maybe 8-10.  Enough so he sees them a few times a week I guess.  I would present them alongside foods he already eats and not really make a big deal of it the first few times. 

We had alot of success doing a gradual approach.  So first few times present the new food and mention it but no pressure to do anything other than tolerate it being on his plate.  You can do lots of 'oh this is cauliflower, mummy loves this, yum yum' and then move on.  So you've addressed its there but thats it.  Keeping it positive. 

Then after a few times of presenting it we moved to exploring it....so encouraging the LO to touch it, smell it, lift it. 

Then move to licking it, biting it then eating a bit.

It really does depend how much you want to push things or how a LO will respond.  Some LOs start to try things themselves after a few presentations.  Other refuse and are happy enough as they know they can jsut go ahead and eat their other foods IYKWIM.  Once kiddies are a bit older we would do 'first you need to try x, then you have the rest of your meal' but that would be for VERY picky eaters who are cutting back on foods they will eat and it seems like you are making good progress so I don't think that would be appropriate at this stage!

Once you are having success with new foods start increasing the amount and reducing the amounts of preferred foods slightly.  And then you encourage the LO to eat what is on the plate before getting more of the preferred food. 

I am absolutely no use on the intolerances front and worked with LOs who didn't have those issues so doing a first-then approach with LOs who have eating issues seems a bit much IYKWIM but definately working on touching/licking/biting then increasing amounts of the new food before more of a preferred food would work.

Plus flipping teeth play havoc!  And really in my experience so long as your LO doesn't see you scuttling around cooking up new foods after refusing what you've made then that is most of the battle.  I do think LOs learn to eat what is offered and try new things if they don't think they can bargain for something better.  And you are doing that so i do think you'll get there sooner rather than later. 

I'll keep thinking!

Siobhan xx

[huntersmummyinoz]

siobhan, i could kiss you, lol!! thankyou thankyou thankyou, some great strategies. will start working on some more of those. actually, i realised today that he will now tolerate the new foods being on his tray, whereas when this all started, he would throw it off, so i guess that is a step forward in itself too. i have also been getting him to feed me some of the foods he wont eat at the end of the meal or helping me put them back on his plate - the idea being getting him to touch them. is that worthwhile or not? (i guess i worry about teaching him some underlying message like only mummy eats that, or turning it into a game, or am i overthinking this??)

jenny, dietician said his calcium is fine atm with 2 milk feeds, so long as he has yoghurt and cheese most days too. however, if we cant keep cheese in there, then he will be a bit short, as although there is calcium in some of his foods, they are all quite low (as cant eat the high calcium ones as too high in sals) or he is only have tiny amounts. she said i could add another yoghurt, but there's no way i'm adding more of a food he LOVES while he is being so fussy as i think he will just hold out for that. any luck on neocate advanced for J? does he eat many high calcium foods?
she also said that unless his range of fruit and veg can be increased, then if he goes on cows milk, then we'll need to look at a multivitamin. (he is still on mostly low salicylate fruit and veg, and 3 tbs moderates plus one extra serve moderates every second day).
on the rice pasta issue. we used to do the same, held pasta or chips til the end of the meal after he'd eaten some of his other food. but he started to just look to the kitchen expecting it when he didnt like what was on his plate. for now we've decided, if it's on the menu, then he gets it upfront, but i am limiting the amount to encourage him not to fill up on just one thing.

 

[EloysH]

siobhan, i could kiss you,

LOL!

actually, i realised today that he will now tolerate the new foods being on his tray, whereas when this all started, he would throw it off, so i guess that is a step forward in itself too.

 Same for us too, I'm glad you took the time to spell all that out.  I realised that I am inadvertendly doing what you advised Kirry to expand Kais diet but not conciously KWIM?
Yay Kingston! I guess eating new foods  is a sum of baby steps!

[Truly Blessed]

Please try not to worry too  much Hon. It is a phase and it will pass. I'm speaking from experience. DS won't starve. Just allow him what he will eat and stick to his favourites. You will have plenty of time to introduce new foods and get him back on track IMHO. The molars really bother them with regards to food, they certainly did our DS  . He wouldn;t allow tooth brushing either, we had to use a muslin cloth for a few days and do the best we could. Sending you Hugs and sympathy.x.

[hrk]

Then move to licking it, biting it then eating a bit.

That reminds me that the ot had even mentioned encouraging H to give his food a kiss.  That may be another thing to keep up your sleeve.

For some children it takes many more times of seeing the food.  (As I was reading through some things, I saw that some kids may take up to 20 times before they will try a food; that is quite an amt!)  So, really hang in there.  And he will naturally have dislikes no matter how much it is presented.  We all have our preferences.  :-)  

And if it is related to lack of food exposure, the way to move past it is by slowly inching along to gradually widen his accepted foods.  I think you have a good idea presenting in a form that he is familiar with, and then moving to other forms.  If you were getting stuck/wanting help "on the ground"/feeling overwhelmed/seeing lack of progress, then perhaps you would want someone like the ot to see if there is anything hindering his development.  Here, it is so easy to do a developmental screening through the birth to three program.  It is free, too.

I did pick up "Child of Mine".  Going to probably start reading this weekend or next week.

[huntersmummyinoz]

well i just want to cry. actually, been there done that several times already.

we are all just getting over a bout of gastro so of course ds2 is off his food again. i finally got him eating better over the last month, we still had a long long way to go, BUT we had made some improvements. i guess we will eventually get there again with food.

BUT he threw up twice after a cup of milk. now he will have a sip and gag or dry retch and refuse any more. then he is crying and crying at bedtime because he wants his milk but he's scared to drink it  . i rely on his formula (prescription neocate for MSPI) for his calcium and vitamins as his diet is so restricted because of this damn salicylates intolerance. seriously, what the hell am i meant to do now      

[Sam-n-Max's Mommy]

I'm so sorry.  Many (((hugs)))). 

You will get there with food again.  We had a nice solid week of great eating and then went back to hit or miss.  It is so frustrating and disheartening.  Even though the good eating seems like a distant memory now, I am really happy that we got it for a short period of time because it reminds me that everything is a phase.  I am sure that your little DS will start eating well again. 

I hope you are all feeling better after the stomach bug .  More (((hugs)))

[hrk]

More hugs, Kirry.  I know you must be worried/disappointed/stressed out/frustrated.  I hope it passes quickly.  It sure can be one step forward and two back.  You are doing everything you can. 

I had an idea about using the formula to make a smoothie type thing?  Maybe you can put it in there with the yogurt/bananas/mangoes.  Perhaps it won't be a direct reminder of what happened.  If his appetite is down due to being ill, it probably is a waiting game.  I am so sorry you are going through this, Kirry. 

[Edesanja]

Major bummer Kirry Hope you're all better now!
Just in the last few days J has been eating a bit better. And he's eating all forms of dairy except straight milk seemingly without incident. I'm just a little hesitant to say it's all ok since he's been sick AGAIN these past 10 days and has had some very loose bm). I'll wait for him to get right again and make sure that the dairy he is having is fine before doing milk... and I'm scared too, though I think we do have a good shot at him being just fine.

So he's LOVING cheese now (after not touching it last time I tried it with him) and he waffled down a cheese toastie yesterday and likes yoghurt too and thinks ice cream is the best thing ever (it's in the genes!!!  ). But he is hardly drinking Neocate - maybe 50ml/ day. He's still having porridge cooked in fortified rice milk so maybe his Neocate + ricemilk + dairy is adding up to enough calcium - I have to work it out. It's his iron that I'm more worried about now. He will eat pate sometimes. Meat it depnds on how it's cooked and his mood 

[EloysH]

He WILL start eating when he's better and like horse love, he will.  K did, and now his finally stocky and lost his big eyes and skinnny neck.   Many many ((hugs))   

I have a good calcium supp if you are interested, personally i have gone for it, as we are borderline and now it takes the pressure off on the green veg in his diet.