Please help me figure out the reasons for the NWs

[lesliemarie]

My 8 mo DD is waking multiple times a night. I need to figure out how to get these to stop.  I am working on gradual withdrawal (she used to be rocked or bounced to sleep but now i just hold her) to get her to sleep on her own but if these NWs don't stop I can't keep this up.  She stops crying as soon as I pick her up.  She was just going right back to sleep but now is getting fidgety and I'm sad to say that because of her cold and mine I have been trying every kind of AP to get her to sleep.  She will fall asleep but still keeps waking so it obviously isn't working. 

Here is our EASY goes like this most days.
7:00-7:30 wake
7:30-8:00 solids
9:00 bottle
9:30 sleep (it is early because of DD1's school schedule)
10:45-11:00 wake
11:45-12:00 solids
12:45-1:00 bottle
1:45-2:15 sleep
3:00-3:30 wake
4:30 solids
6:30 bottle
7 bedtime

Those are aprox times but if she gets up at 3 she will need to go to bed early or have a nap.  If she has a nap then it really messes p bedtime.  After she goes to bed she will wake after 30 minutes and then that just continues all night.

What the heck is causing all of these wakings? I would appreciate any help or suggestions.

[choc]

Any sign of teeth?  My 8 month old is exactly the same at the moment and he has his top 2 teeth cutting.  Is she using you as a prop to get back to sleep, or can she self settle?

[lesliemarie]

She was teething badle last weekend but has since been better.  Still no teeth though.  This isn't a new problem though.  I'm just really fed up at the moment.  Every time we star to make progress it gets back to the same again within a week even if nothing has changed.  She doesn't sleep independently yet and I'm working on it with the gradual withdrawal but after the past couple of nights I'm thinking that the gradual thing isn't going to work.  She uses me to get to sleep again but I really think the reason she wakes so much is that she isn't tired enough to stay asleep.  I just can't seem to get her to stay up longer than 3 hours during the day so she is going to bed too early.  I think if I could get her day to be 13 hours and night to be 11 then we could make some progress but I just don't know how to do that.

[choc]

Have you tried extending A time by 5 mins or so everyday?  Do it really slowly if she is sensitive to it.  Keep the extra 5/10 mins really low key, just walk around the house with her, give a change of scenary etc. Until you get the length of day you want. Sorry if you are already trying this.

I know how horrible all the wakings are, we are having the worst time since he has been born and it started a month or so before my return to work which doesn't help.  My ds has a 2 hour nap am and half an hour pm which I suspect could be a problem but don't know how to change it!

[Bex09]

Hi hun, btdt with my DD! She has never been a great sleeper either, but to give you hope, she has got better as she gets older. Just wanted to add that a wake up 30 mins after BT and then frequent wake ups early on in the night would usually mean OT. Looking at your EASY your LO isn't getting a lot of daytime sleep for her age either, is she low sleep needs do you think? My DD is still getting about 2-2.5h each day now and she is 12.5 months old. What do you think? Could she be OT by BT?

The APing won't be helping with her NW and she probably needs you to get her back to sleep. BUT as a Mum who still sits with her DD for her to go to sleep, I really can't comment!!! We are using GW too and it was going great until DD got a terrible cough. I am lucky as my DD has learnt to settle back to sleep despite my APing to initially get her to sleep. NW for us now only happen if DD's routine is off (OT or UT for whatever reason) or she is in pain (usually teething). HTHs.

[ZacsMumme]

fter she goes to bed she will wake after 30 minutes and then that just continues all night.

For us waking 30 mins after BT was OT, and part of the transition from 3 naps to 2. It may sound counter-productive, but for us early BT actually helped get over this hump. At the 30 min wakes could your DH try settling her in her cot? Sometimes I find my DS wants cuddles from me, but will accept Dad patting him back to sleep or just re-offering him the paci. If you suspect teething I would medicate, or you could try using bonjela (numbing gel) at the 30 min mark.

[lesliemarie]

I was thinking it could be because she isn't getting enough sleep but I have no idea how to extend the naps.  The first one is pretty much limited by the school run so she gets an hour to an hour and 15 minutes.  Then the second one is usually only an hour so then she needs a CN and then she isn't tired by bedtime.  I've tried giving her a CN at around 5 and then doing bedtime at 7:30 or 8 and I still get the wakings.    

When she wakes in the evening before I have to go to bed she will settle for me if I just give her the paci and put my hand on her.  Through the night though she needs me to pick her up.  I managed to get her to sleep in bed with me from 4 to 7 this morning but she usually doesn't sleep there either. 

I have tried medicating and it doesn't make any difference.  I've also tried feeding and it doesn't work either.

I haven't been clock watching but I think that I'll have to start again.  Her A time before the first nap is about 2 hours to 2.5 hours.  I can get 3 hours out of her for the others.  Today for some reason (probably lack of sleep last night) she slept for 2 hours this morning and then I had to wake her from her afternoon nap at 1.5 hours.  Hopefully today that will mean we get a good night.

So if this does work and she sleeps better tonight what do you think I should do to get her more sleep?  Wake her at 7 to make sure that I can get her to bed for 9 or 9:15 so that she has the opportunity to sleep until 11?  She always wakes happy as well so its hard to tell if it isn't enough.  DD1 was a low sleep needs but I don't think DD2 is.  Up until 3.5 months she napped terribly but only woke twice at night to eat.  Then she started napping better and then started waking often at night.  Just not sure how to fix it.  Willing to try anything though. 

[lesliemarie]

OK.  So last night was sooooo bad.  She went down at 7 and wasn't OT.  Then she was up at 8:10, 8:48, 10:13 and 10:52.  Then I stopped counting    I thought I would try to get her to sleep in bed with me because the night before she slept there from 4 until 7.  Well it seems that she won't fall into a deep sleep until 4.  She would fall asleep but then be really fidgety and keep playing with the pillow or blanket with her fingers even while asleep.  So it continued where she would wake every 45minutes to an hour and I would have to AP her back to sleep.  So I realized that it isn't that she is needing the APing to fall asleep again I think she is just very unsettled and fidgety up to 4am regardless.  This is somewhat new and I'm not sure the reason for it.  Any ideas?

[Bex09]

Aww hun so sorry for your awful night. First thing that jumps out on your normal day is that your DD is quite old to be having a CN still. I think most babies drop it around 6-7 months and it can take a while to phase it out. I know that we were having awful NW around the 6 month mark and when we dropped the CN, her nights got much better. Obviously it is hard for you to structure her naps around school runs, etc so I would get her up by 7am if that helps her to get a better sleep in the morning. You might also need to push her A times out a little bit to better fit her two naps in to the day. Have you looked at the sample routines and do they help at all to structure your day?

It is so hard to know why our LOs wake so frequently! How is she when she NWs? Does she cry or really scream? Does she settle when you walk in or PU? If feeding doesn't help at least you know it isn't hunger.

[ZacsMumme]

aw hugs lesiemarie. II agree about your day yesterday - it looked great. I really do think that the CN needs to go and those A times need to be stretched as pp have said. I found this really hard too with Zac has he was touchy and really wanted to go to sleep when he wanted to go to sleep (which was too earlyer A time  ) phasing out that CN took us weeks...but it was worth it.

Seeing as you have the school run to contend with and cutting this nap shorter while extending that A may make her more OT you could maybe focus on the second A time and just try to increase it every few days, we had to start very slowly (5-10mins to start with!)and sometimes went backwards but in the end we got there. Once this one is up to about 3 hours you may find you can extend that first A a bit and risk the shorter nap if the second nap is substantial...and then you can drop the CN with some early BT??? what do you think?  

[lesliemarie]

Thanks for the suggestions.  I've actually tried all of that   We were at 3 to 3.5 hours of A time and then something happened.  I have no idea what though.  She went to only being able to stay awake for 2 hours.  Today she got up at 6:30 and was sooooooo tired by 9 that I had to put her down.  Not too bad of an A time though but she only slept an hour.  Then I had to put her down at 2.25 hours after that because we had to go to the pead to see if this is reflux related.  She slept for an 1.25 hours that time.  So she has to have another nap today and probably a full nap since she was up by 1:30.  She is so whiney and cranky during the day now too and I assume that could be because of the lack of sleep overnight.  I just don't know what to do to keep her awake as I can't stand all the whining especially when I haven't had any sleep    Not to mention we have bought a house so now I have to get my whole house packed up essentially by myself since DH seems to always be at work.

On a normal day the second and third A times are 3 hours and a little more if I can manage but that doesn't seem to make a difference.  I've also tried the earlier bedtime which didn't help as she would wake every 15 minutes because she wanted up.

[Bex09]

Oh hun the lack of sleep is just horrible isn't it? My DD has reflux too and it is awful so huge ((HUGS)) to you. The NW could well be to do with that, is the reflux under control with meds? Does she seem in pain? I know that when my DD has a bad night with long/lots of NW then her A times the following day have to be really shortened to get her out of the OT. You sound like you are doing the right things and I think your NW issues really are to do with OT. Even if your LO doesn't seem OT at BT she may well just really need to catch up on that lost NT sleep. I think all you can do is just try your best to get her to sleep well in the day and maybe a 'slightly' earlier BT. Sorry I haven't got much else to suggest hun.

[lesliemarie]

She is medicated.  Lots actually.  25mg of Losec daily plus 2.7ml of Ranitidine twice a day.  It should be enough but not sure if she is teething or if it is reflux but something is bothering her.  She is down for her third nap today.  We had been doing fairly well with only two naps but still tons of NWs.  I tried splitting her Losec today (10mg in the morning and then we'll do 15mg before bed).  She previously got it all before bed but I wonder if it is upsetting her tummy to have such a big dose so late in the ay.  We'll see I guess but honestly if this keeps up I'm going to move inter her bedroom and see if she will sleep with me just on the floor beside her.  All the APing doesn't seem to be helping so maybe she just needs to learn to self soothe.  It was at this point with DD1 that I resorted to CIO and I regret it so hopefully DD2 will learn quickly with me just being in the room.  I don't know if it will make it worse if I'm just there and not touching her.  I just wish I knew what to do.   

[ZacsMumme]

I just don't know what to do to keep her awake as I can't stand all the whining especially when I haven't had any sleep

oh hun I hear you! DS is a whiny bum when he is tired or teething or his reflux is flaring. DO you think this could be teeth related? Zac has never been a good sleeper, but sleeps A LOT just before and after his teeth pop through. For us the reflux flares when Zac teeths making for one unsettled boy. We are in a bit of an AP pickle too. I am sure I cave in to fast and pick DS up, but when you know somethings bothering them ie pain, it is so hard not too.

Maybe try riding this out for a few days and see if it passes. How long has this been going on for now? x

[lesliemarie]

I'm beginning to think it is teeth and that could be causing a reflux flare.  I got some of that gross baby anbesol (sp?).  The stuff that numbs your whole mouth.  So I'll try that tonight and I've also asked a friend to send some teething powder from England.  We can't get it here and I have heard that it works much better as it has the paracetemol (sp?) in it so it gets right to the source of the pain.  It is really annoying all of the things we can't get here 

The bad sleep has been going on since she turned 4 months actually.  It comes and goes though.  Before we got the reflux under control her days were crap with little to no naps but the nights were great once I finally managed to get her down (usually took 2 hours of waking every 10-20 minutes).  Then the naps started to get better once we started with the proper amount of Losec and then nights turned bad.  I know a lot of it was habit for her but the real issues have been in the last two weeks.  She always used to settle when I picked her up but now she won't settle even when I pick her up.  She isn't really crying just fidgeting and moving all over the place.  Literally pushing off of me and tossing and turning all while I'm trying to hold her.  I've had to resort to bouncing her on the yoga ball a few times and holding her really tightly to get her to calm down enough to sleep then the whole thing starts over again in an hour.

Once this passes I have to be aggressive with the sleep training.  This gradual thing takes too long as we don't seem to have long enough between teething and reflux flares to make any progress.