Waking up every hour for the second half of the night.

[Liliben]

We have a peculiar nw problem. We've had all sorts of NWs so far with DD who is almost 8 months.At 5 months she was having BF at 7pm waking at 1pm for BF and sleeping till 7pm again. After solids were introduced we had problems with NWs due to constipation and sometimes still get that. SHe will stay awakefor 2.5 hours in discomfort. But recently this is a regular pattern. Sleeps after last breastfead generally without stirring at all until midnight. I then BF but then she wakes hourly until I Bf again at 6am. She doesn't generally cry (never has been a screamer only when very OT) she whimpers and fusses. I've tried leaving her but she just carries on. If I pick her up and snuggle her and a couple of pats she's asleep straight away and I put her back down. I don't know what's going on. When she wakes from daytime naps or stirs she puts herself back to sleep quite easily and doesn't seem to wake the first half of the night. She's still in our room. Could it be she just senses that we're there or is she in pain? She doesn't root for food and is quite happy just to go back down immediately. TBH, I don't find this too intrusive but I don't want it to become a habit either that PU  is a prop.

[mmom]

((HUGS))) Can you post your routine in EAS format?

[Liliben]

Generally our routine goes like this because it's dictated by DS school run at 9am and 3 pm.

E Waking now between 6am and 6.45 when she comes into bed for BF and generally isn't properly awake until 6.45. If she's just awake and happy at 6am I don't feed until nearer 7am.
SOLIDS

[Liliben]

Sorry posted before I'd finished!

So!

WU/BF 6am - 7am
SOLIDS 8am
S 9.15 - 11.00
BF 11.00
SOLIDS 12.00
S 1.45 (I have to pick her up from this one at 2.45 for school run)
BF 3.15
S 5.00 - 5.45
SOLIDS (BLW ONLY) 5.45
BF 7.15
ASLEEP 7.45
NF 12.30

At the weekend she will take 2 longer naps and have an earlier bedtime of 6.30. But either routine involves the same NW. Whether she's asleep by 6.30 or 8pm she'll wake around midnight for a feed and then continually wake every hour until morning!! ANy suggestions would be appreciated.

[mmom]

I would think that cat nap at this age, would interrupt sleep.  Have you tried just putting her down at 6 on those days?

Also, since you say you don't see a difference between 2 and 3 nap days, is your LO teething?  Have you tried medicating to see if it minimizes NWs?

[Liliben]

On days that she takes 2 naps because I don't have to wake her to go to school she''ll wake from her second nap at around 3.45 but she'll then be asleep at bedtime by 6.30 at the latest. Her A times have always been a bit short for her age and we're onll just managing 2.75 happily now. If we push for 3 hrs she's OT and sleeps less. Are you suggesting putting her down at 6pm after waking her at 2.45pm? I could give it a try.

She could be teething. She has no teeth cut yet and we've been saying she's teething since she was 2 months. I just find it odd that she will sleep well from BT until midnight no matter when we put her down. I've tried medivating at NF to see if it minimzes NW and it doesn't. Can only conclude that she senses us in the room and was hoping not to move her to her room until September (after school hols) because I don't want to have to tell DS to be quiet during naps because her room is next door.

[mmom]

Are you suggesting putting her down at 6pm after waking her at 2.45pm

Yes

You could always move her into her own room and have white noise going.

If we get NWs for teeth, they are almost always in the later part of the evening.  Have you tried Ibuprofin at bedtime?

[Liliben]

DDs night wakings are midnight until morning. Whether I give ibuprofen or not at bedtime she sleeps well until then. Dh tried to give bottle of EBM at 5.45 last night but she fell asleep after 2oz because she hadn't a catnap so woke then at 10.30pm for feed. Then woke 12.30 and horly after that!

[mmom]

Is she fully waking? What are you doing when she wakes?

[Liliben]

Yes she wakes fully and fusses. She doesn't cry out loudly. I've tried leaving her but she wakes properly and sometimes it's almost as if she has a bit of a playtime but won't get back to sleep by herself. If I pick her up give her a cuddle she closes her eyes immediately and goes back down!

Also, what would a routine for bf and solids be like between 3pm and bt if I expect her to be asleep by 6pm? I don't know how to fit it allin. At the moment, DD has meals with us but that wouldn't be possible.

[*Kara*]

I would put her in her own room, your movement/breathing could disrupt her sleep at this age.  As well, I suspect teething too.

The reason that she only wakes for the second half of the night is biological in nature.  Lots of sleep hormone until midnight, then it tapers and drops dramatically around 4am.

You need to eliminate the CN, she is getting too much day sleep - I think she is likely UT at BT.  I would push her A times over the next week to get her to the 3 hr time.

[mmom]

I would move solids upt to 4:15 and then just do  a top off bf before bed.

It seems like you aren't giving her the chance to settle on her own if she is just awake for playtime.  Only attend to her when she is really crying and not a mantra cry.  She now needs your cuddles to go back to sleep.

If you are ready to put her in her own room, it would be a good time to sleep train as well.

[Liliben]

Thanks Kara for informimg me that there is a reason behind the waking. I just find it so odd!

Thanks mmom for staying with me on this. I think your absolutely right that she now needs a 2 second cuddle and then it's back to sleep and that's what I've been fearing. My only problem is that if I don't attend to her playtime and chatting will last sometimes 2.5 hours when she is OT and then doesn't put herself back to sleep by herself anyway.

Sorry to be so negative but I don't know what to start with and how to sort it. Our daytime was pretty straightforward and easy (?!) and though I know I need to sort NT everything then seems to go haywire and it's chaos everywhere.

I can manage to stretch A time after Nap 1 to 3 hours but when I try to PD DD at 9.45 - 10am (as I did this morning and yesterday) because the latter part of NT is disrupted she is OT by then and only sleeps 45 mins and will not go back to sleep so she's actully awake sooner than she would have been if I'd put her down at 9.15. She'll sleep definately until 11am, sometimes 11.30am and I can get a 3 hour A time in after this but I have to put her down at 2pm to wake her at 2.45. Because she hasn't had a long enough nap 2 she really finds it difficult to handle a 3 hour A time before BT. Last night she was asleep by 6pm but hadn't eat much dinner, didn't BF well and was awake 6.30 (OT!?!) and then at 9pm and then 2 hourly from then on. I BF at 11pm and then just resettled her. Things are getting worse.

If she's in bed by 6pm does she then start her day at 6am the following day. If so,things are never going to shift to where I need them.

This what I'd like to achieve. It would fit into DS day with school and after school activities. We're not always available to give dinner at 4.15. BF I manage in the car when out and about to DS's lessons but I don't like the idea of just shoveling food into DDs mouth in a car seat or pram while we're out and about. I like having her a part of our family meals.

WU/BF 7.00
SOLIDS 8.00
NAP 10.00
BF 12.00
SOLIDS 1.00
S 3.00 - 4.30
BF 4.30
SOLIDS 5.30
BF 7.00
Asleep 7.30

Maybe I'm asking too much! I'll pull the cot apart this weekend and reassemble in DDs room to see if it makes a difference. That's the only thing I haven't tried yet. I start back at work the first day of the school hols in a fortnight's time and I'm starting to get worried!

[*Kara*]

How much day sleep does she get right now?  It looks like a 2 hour AM nap and a 90 minute PM nap?

If that is the case, you need to cut her day sleep a lot to get her to sleep at night

[brenda2]

You need to eliminate the CN, she is getting too much day sleep - I think she is likely UT at BT.  I would push her A times over the next week to get her to the 3 hr time.

i agree with this.  she should be on 2 naps at this age - no catnap.  but total daytime sleep should be about 3.5-4 hours in a 12 hour day, not less than this.  i wouldn't cut the naps back more than just having the 2 naps.

does she have a paci?

Only attend to her when she is really crying and not a mantra cry.  She now needs your cuddles to go back to sleep.

agree - don't cuddle her.  only go in if she is truly crying.  try to ignore the fussing etc.